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<bernardofpc>
tobiasBor> (I think that list.revert isn't fair isn't it ?) -> Batteries has a Obj.magic that makes some "list-building by ::" tail-recursive
<bernardofpc>
(it lets the "next" pointer "dangling" from one iteration to the following
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<wwilly>
bonjour
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<gasche>
bernardofpc: Obj.magic is a tabu word in any explanation
<gasche>
we should stop mentioning that feature to people
<gasche>
they just misuse it
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<bernardofpc>
well, I must say that I still fell unconfortable with the fact that list-building from head to tail is not efficient in OCaml (heap/stack-wise)
<bernardofpc>
especially since I bet that lists are probably the most common data type in OCaml in general
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<ggole>
You can't just smash the tail of a list though
<ggole>
There's a write barrier problem
<bernardofpc>
I'd say it's an abstraction barrier
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<ousado>
bernardofpc: "is not efficient in Ocaml" - what's ocaml specific about that?
<bernardofpc>
that List.map is efficient only with open Batteries, that does use Obj.magic or some equivalent magic
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<bernardofpc>
were I to take XL words that Obj.magic is not \in OCaml, then this is a problem
<ousado>
weren't you talking about list-building just now?
<bernardofpc>
ousado: precisely
<bernardofpc>
list.map builds a list, doesn't it ?
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<ousado>
List.map is a specific function that returns a list
<pippijn>
bernardofpc: mutation in ocaml is not so fast
<ggole>
The trick that OCaml "misses" is to hold a reference to the last cons, and mutate the end of that to append
<eg0>
hi, im looking to learn a functional language. id like one that i could get a job with, and ive narrowed my list down to erlang, (j)ocaml, and openDylan
<ggole>
But this isn't necessarily a good thing to add, because there is a write barrier cost to mutation
<eg0>
how mature is JoCaml, and is it comparable to erlang in its ability to maintain concurrent and distributed systems?
<bernardofpc>
ggole: I must confess I don't really use enough multiprocess that I understand write barriers
<bernardofpc>
(OTOH, if that's a problem for the GC, it's sad)
<ggole>
bernardofpc: it is GC jargon in this context
<ggole>
A write barrier moves an object from the set which is known not to point to the old generation to the set which may
<ousado>
the immutability of lists is a feature
<ggole>
In OCaml it is implemented by pushing a pointer onto a vector (I believe)
<ggole>
If you look at assembly you'll see calls to caml_modify that implement this barrier
<bernardofpc>
ggole: so all "next" pointers in a list belong to the set which "may" ?
<ggole>
bernardofpc: no
<ggole>
Not unless you mutate them
<bernardofpc>
but when you use List.map don't you always return something in the "young" ?
<bernardofpc>
(hum, that depends on *F*)
<ggole>
Sort of
<ggole>
You might cause a GC, which could move the list structure out of the young heap
<bernardofpc>
and at that point all previous pointers point in the wrong place
<ggole>
The GC fixes all of that up
<bernardofpc>
Ok, right
<ggole>
Any pointer into the new heap met during traversal will cause that object to be copied out
<ggole>
And the pointer will be fixed up
<bernardofpc>
and from there on the new ones will again be on the young ?
<bernardofpc>
(continuing down map, I mean)
<ggole>
No, they'll point to wherever the list structure is
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<ggole>
The point is that OCaml has GC machinery that favours immutable data over mutable data
<bernardofpc>
right, but when you're building a list using list.map you're not mutating anything, semantically
<bernardofpc>
you're just deciding later where next points to
<ousado>
of course you are
<ggole>
The semantics are irrelevant: if you mutate a pointer value, the write barrier must be observed
<ousado>
and map is jsut a specific case, you were referring to list building at large
<ggole>
GC requires it to function correctly
<bernardofpc>
ousado: you do deserve your nick
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<pippijn>
ocaml crashes if you don't observe it
<bernardofpc>
Let me try to understand that again
<bernardofpc>
take Batteries.List.map
<bernardofpc>
you're telling me that after I find what the next should point to, it might happen that it points to a value in the old heap
<bernardofpc>
(because the GC has gone through a collection, and moved whatever you returned to the old heap)
<bernardofpc>
and when the linking code does prev.next = result, this implies a write barrier
<bernardofpc>
right ?
<ggole>
I'm not sure what you mean by linking code
<ggole>
But assignment to the tail pointer does require a write barrier
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<ousado>
ggole: so you're only talking about a specific optimization of list.map?
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<ggole>
I'm talking about any use of tail-allocation
<ggole>
List.map is probably the most interesting one
<bernardofpc>
(answering "linking code" far above)
<ggole>
That needs a write barrier, yep
<bernardofpc>
ousado: I'm thinking concretely about list.map, yes
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<bernardofpc>
because that was what made me dig into Batteries.list, and see that there is a problem somehow
<bernardofpc>
ggole: what's the status of something constructed out of two "old" objects ?
<bernardofpc>
is it by default "old", or it might be "young" ?
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<ggole>
What you construct an object out of doesn't affect which heap it is on
<bernardofpc>
ok
<bernardofpc>
so if I could prove that f returns a "young" value then I don't need a write barrier
<bernardofpc>
(for instance if the value f returns is built just before the return)
<ggole>
I don't know what f is
<bernardofpc>
right
<bernardofpc>
so there you must put a write barrier because f might do fancy stuff such as looking up a Hashtable
<ggole>
And no, that's not right
<bernardofpc>
??
<ggole>
Maybe I've explained poorly. The write barrier is there so that any exception to the assumption that young objects are only pointed to by young objects can be tracked.
<ggole>
So if you mutate a pointer and you know that it is *within* a young object, you don't need the barrier.
<ggole>
It's hard to see how you could do so without the support of the compiler.
<bernardofpc>
ggole: oh
<bernardofpc>
the problem is that if the previous node goes into the "old" heap, then something must happen ?
<ggole>
The problem is that the GC would like to assume that nothing on the old heap points into the new heap.
<ggole>
It benefits from this assumption because it need not walk the old heap upon minor collections.
<bernardofpc>
right
<ggole>
If anything on the old heap is mutated, this assumption is violated.
<ggole>
So such operations are tracked with the write barrier.
<ggole>
Note that this only applies to pointers. You can mutate integer fields all you like.
<bernardofpc>
ouf ;-)
<pippijn>
(Obj.magic ob : int array).(0) <- otherob;
<pippijn>
don't do that :)
<pippijn>
(Obj.magic ob : int array).(0) <- Obj.magic otherob; (* of course *)
<pippijn>
either way, don't do it
<bernardofpc>
sure
<bernardofpc>
it would be nice though to have a TR List.map that did not incurr in so many write barriers
<pippijn>
hm
<bernardofpc>
but I see the problem
<bernardofpc>
and perhaps list.rev_map might be enough
<pippijn>
but map creates a new list, so the mutation occurs in young objects
<ggole>
You could have a gc at any cons allocation
<ggole>
So you do not know that
<pippijn>
right
<ggole>
It might be possible if you kept tight control over when everything happend
<pippijn>
you would need a "stop gc for a moment" thing
<bernardofpc>
you could pass the previous object (as it's already done) and if the caml_young compare fails, you do a GC keeping that pointer in the roots
<bernardofpc>
(somehow)
<ggole>
Well, the compiler has some knowledge about which points GC can occur at
<pippijn>
for example Gc.collect() before doing map would make it less likely that the GC runs
<pippijn>
but still not impossible
<pippijn>
ggole: yes, every allocation
<ggole>
And every function call (except to builtins)
<bernardofpc>
pippijn: the compiler might be able to know muh better
<ggole>
So if your assignment happened between those
<ggole>
You might be able to get away with it
<pippijn>
with functions, you can prove that they never allocate
<pippijn>
the compiler could in theory record that in the interface
<bernardofpc>
when you're building a list, you necessarily allocate some stuff, don't you ?
<bernardofpc>
(not on "f", but in the (result, next) pair)
<pippijn>
the problem is
<ggole>
Constructors with arguments are heap allocated, if that's what you mean
<pippijn>
you need to allocate the result object, then the next object, and put the next object into result object
<pippijn>
so you have 2 allocations
<ggole>
(Actually I can imagine calling conventions in which small constructors are kept in registers. But never mind that.)
<pippijn>
so you would have to make those 2 allocations atomic
<ggole>
You don't have to allocate the result object
<ggole>
The function argument does that
<pippijn>
if you don't allocate it, you don't know if it's new
<pippijn>
my point is
<ggole>
You don't have to
<ggole>
You aren't changing it, just assigning it to the first bit of the cons
<pippijn>
you can't put the next object into the result object unless you allocate it
<ggole>
It's just a value
<pippijn>
so the result object might be old by then
<ggole>
True, but it doesn't matter
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<ggole>
So tail-allocation map without barriers is probably possible
<bernardofpc>
thanks for this lecture on the GC ;-)
* ggole
nods
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<wmeyer>
hi
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<Zeev>
hello I try to install ocaml 4.01 on windows, and I get cannot install activetcl
<Zeev>
I download manually activetcl (which is a higher version now that ocaml 4.01 is supposed to install
<Zeev>
which directory I install it to?
<Zeev>
c;\ocaml\activetcl?
<Zeev>
c:*
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<Zeev>
is there anything else I should do for ocaml to recognise activetcl installation?
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<chris2>
how can i tell ocamlbuild to pass -warn K? warn_X passes -warn X, but warn_K doesnt do anything
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<gnuvince>
Is it possible to create an array of N elements of a type to be determined later?
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<pippijn>
later?
<pippijn>
when is later?
<gnuvince>
When an initial item is set.
<pippijn>
what would the other items contain?
<gnuvince>
I'd like to write an extensible array data structure, but at the moment I need to start with an empty array and grow it by 2N+1. I was wondering if it were possible to start with an array containing maybe 8 or 16 elements from the start.
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<thizanne>
gnuvince: the question of pippijn was to be answered
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<gnuvince>
I can do it if I change create : unit -> 'a t to create : 'a -> 'a t where I supply a sample element, but that seems hacky
<thizanne>
when you set your first element, what do the other places of the array contain ?
<gnuvince>
thizanne: they could have the same element.
<pippijn>
you can create an array with all elements being that first element, yes
<thizanne>
so when you put an element in your array, all the others must be set to this element
<pippijn>
your structure would start out with [||], and when you put in the first, you do the actual allocation
<thizanne>
and you need another reference to know if there is an element in your array
<thizanne>
... or maybe you can just go with length
<pippijn>
you need a "size"
<pippijn>
your array length is the "capacity"
<pippijn>
and you need an additional count to keep track of the number of accessible elemnets
<pippijn>
you could also just use BatDynArray
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<gnuvince>
I can check how BatDynArray does it.
<gnuvince>
But the idea is to do it myself
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<gnuvince>
seems like Batteries uses Obj,magic
<thizanne>
gnuvince: why couldnt't you create the array when the first element is inserted, like pippin suggested ?
<gnuvince>
that,s probably what I'll do
<gnuvince>
I was curious how batteries did it.
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