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<
ggole >
Does opam install a copy of the ocaml docs? If not, can I ask it to?
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07:08
<
adrien >
wmeyer```: pong
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08:18
<
jyeo >
anyone with ocamlbuild experience? what's the difference between pp_ and syntax_ tags?
08:19
<
Kakadu_ >
syntax is prefprocessor engine, pp is its options, AFAIR
08:20
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08:20
<
jyeo >
Kakadu_: it seems to be mutually exclusive. i can't use both
08:21
<
Kakadu_ >
i was talking about -syntax and -ppopt
08:22
<
jyeo >
oh i was referring to -pp and -syntax
08:23
<
Kakadu_ >
`ocamlc` has -pp and doesn't has -syntax
08:24
<
jyeo >
ocamlbuild has it
08:24
<
Kakadu_ >
it seems nothing changes if I replace 'pp' to 'syntax' in _tags file
08:25
<
Kakadu_ >
jyeo: You can try to contact gasche. He knows it, 100%
08:25
<
jyeo >
Kakadu_: is he here?
08:25
<
jyeo >
i.e. not afk?
08:25
<
jyeo >
what's his timezone?
08:25
<
Kakadu_ >
He appears rather often
08:26
<
Kakadu_ >
jyeo: Paris, AFAIK
08:26
<
jyeo >
great! thanks Kakadu_
08:29
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08:31
<
gasche >
jyeo: -syntax is ocamlfind-specific
08:31
<
gasche >
so it gets its semantics when you use (ocamlbuild -use-ocamlfind)
08:31
<
gasche >
what it does is tell ocamlfind to use the given preprocessor (typically you want -syntax camlp4o or -syntax camlp4of)
08:32
<
gasche >
unfortunately, today ocamlbuild's -pp is not terribly helpful, and ocamlfind's -ppopt is not supported
08:32
<
gasche >
interaction with syntax extensions could be improved
08:32
<
gasche >
is there something specific you want to do?
08:33
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08:33
<
jyeo >
well, i am getting syntax errors with my camlp4 extension ml file
08:33
<
jyeo >
i tried both -pp camlp4of and -syntax camp4of but nothing works
08:33
<
jyeo >
hmmm wait...it works...
08:34
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08:34
<
jyeo >
i was using pp_camlp4of in my _tags file. i have to change it to pp(camlp4of) to get it to work. :-/
08:34
<
jyeo >
hmmm this is weird
08:35
<
gasche >
do you use -use-ocamlfind?
08:36
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08:36
<
gasche >
here is an example of ocamlbuild invocation that results in "camlp4o Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4MacroParser.cmo -DFOO" being used as preprocessor
08:36
<
gasche >
ocamlbuild -use-ocamlfind -package camlp4.macro -syntax camlp4o -cflags -ppopt,-DFOO test.byte
08:37
<
gasche >
ocamlbuild -pp "camlp4of -DFOO" test.byte also works
08:40
<
jyeo >
thanks gasche
08:40
<
jyeo >
i wish there's a better documentation for ocamlbuild
08:41
<
jyeo >
it's an awesome tool but it's hard to get it working with syntax extensions and oasis
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08:52
<
Kakadu_ >
gasche: Do you know is ocamlbuild going to support `dynamic dependencies`?
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10:03
<
gasche >
Kakadu: what do you mean by "dynamic dependencies"? ocamlbuild is already quite dynamic
10:04
<
Kakadu >
coq extraction and compilation of generated mls.
10:04
<
gasche >
I think that's already possible
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10:08
<
Kakadu >
Somebody have told me that it is not
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10:11
<
gasche >
apparently Dmitry Grebeniuk had a problem when doing that
10:11
<
gasche >
I don't really understand the problem from the ML discussion, and the bitbucket link is dead
10:12
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10:12
<
Kakadu >
He just told me that he haven't succeded and he removed repo because this approach is useless
10:12
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10:14
<
gasche >
without the code, I cannot tell whether his problem can be solved
10:15
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10:15
<
gasche >
but I would be surprised, given that we can use menhir (or dypgen or ...) to generate .ml/.mli from grammar descriptions, if we couldn't make Coq extraction work; I don't think it's that different
10:16
<
gasche >
(there may be things to do to handle the fact that coq files depend on each other, but well)
10:17
<
gasche >
Kakadu: in your YAML parser, why did you comment the (type json = ) declaration?
10:19
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10:19
<
Kakadu >
because it is not used by parser. I have copy pasted it to .ml to make parser result like in json
10:19
<
gasche >
(also I don't understand why you have to write all this (snd loc >= pos) stuff in the parser)
10:20
<
Kakadu >
to reuse yojson's pretty-printers
10:20
<
Kakadu >
YAML has 2-dimensional syntax like haskell
10:21
<
gasche >
re the json datatype
10:22
<
gasche >
I think it could help you catch bug if you annotated the start rule to say that it returns a `json`
10:22
<
gasche >
that way, if you make a typo in the name of a constructor in a production, you get a failure
10:23
<
gasche >
as the datatype is structural (a polymorphic variant), this will not impact anything else
10:23
<
Kakadu >
i.e. I copy-paste json datataype and annotate start rule?
10:23
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10:24
<
gasche >
well you wouldn't have to copy-paste, only uncomment it, but yes
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11:19
<
kerneis >
gasche: thanks, my first answer on SO
11:20
<
mrvn >
anyone using a different std lib for ocaml?
11:22
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11:24
<
gasche >
mrvn: I saw your question about replacing the runtime, and I'm a bit curious: what are you considering doing?
11:24
<
mrvn >
kerneis: are you using that?
11:25
<
mrvn >
gasche: writing an exokernel to run ocaml directly on a RasperyPI.
11:25
<
mrvn >
gasche: like openmirage for x86
11:26
<
mrvn >
kerneis: looks like they have their own compiler. I want to be a bit less intrusive.
11:26
<
kerneis >
mrvn: no, I've seen a talk about it
11:28
<
gasche >
then I guess js_of_ocaml would qualify, they reimplemented the primitives the runtime expects in a non-posix world
11:29
<
gasche >
re. ocapic, what I remember was that Benoît uses the stock ocamlrun, but does deadcode-elimination before, and has his own runtime indeed (implemented in PIC assembly!)
11:29
<
avsm >
mrvn: we're in the process of refactoring the mirage boot infrastructure to support xen/arm too (which is a hvm boot similar to uboot), so you might want to start a thread on cl-mirage@lists.cam.ac.uk
11:30
<
mrvn >
avsm: how does mirage get the compiler to link against the mirage kernel?
11:30
<
avsm >
it, uh, compiles it :-)
11:30
<
avsm >
-output-obj from ocaml gives a .o
11:30
<
avsm >
and then you just need to satisfy the gc dependencies, and supply a linker script
11:31
<
avsm >
which loader are you using. uboot?
11:31
<
avsm >
there's no real mirage kernel; just a boot library (which we're pulling out now atm to make it suitable for, e.g. halvm too)
11:31
<
mrvn >
avsm: RPi uses a loader non the GPU to load the arm kernel. It's a bit of an odd design. But it follows the normal arm boot protocol.
11:32
<
avsm >
yeah, but you can jump to uboot, right?
11:32
<
avsm >
that provides a reasonable environment jump into the ocaml runtime from
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11:33
<
avsm >
if you can get a caml_startup running, then hooking in various mirage libraries should be a breeze (and fun) — djs55 has a terminal library almost complete that would rasterize onto the framebuffer. and
https://github.com/djs55/ocaml-vnc too
11:33
<
avsm >
i'm spending more time looking at the cubie2 atm, since it has a more interesting xen-capable a15
11:33
<
mrvn >
avsm: so to recap: You compile with -output-obj to get a .o file for the ocaml code. then you link that together with mirage to get the full kernel. No other magic?
11:34
<
avsm >
not with mirage — just a boot library that brings up a xen shared info page
11:34
<
avsm >
mirage is called mirage since it doesn't really exist. it's all a set of libraries
11:35
<
Drup >
"Mirage, the kernel that doesn't exist"
11:35
<
flux >
wish mirage worked with virtualbox, vmware and kvm as well. or does it? it would make it so much nicer to try it out.
11:35
<
Drup >
not sure if it's a good marketing plan :D
11:35
<
avsm >
so ubiquitous its everywhere … and nowhere
11:35
<
mrvn >
flux: or bochs
11:36
<
avsm >
flux: yeah. jonludlam has an hvm boot backend that should be adaptable to them
11:36
<
avsm >
its all glue. lots and lots of glue :)
11:36
<
NoNNaN >
flux: as far as I remember, there is a xenblanket project
11:36
<
flux >
nonnan, which is.. ?
11:37
<
flux >
"The Xen-Blanket aims to give cloud users hypervisor-level control on public or private clouds by running a second-layer (Xen) hypervisor. This code release contains patches to Xen and Linux drivers to allow a second-layer guest to interact with underlying paravirtualized device interfaces essential for performance and deployability."
11:37
<
NoNNaN >
flux: it provides hypervison on hypervisor
11:37
<
mrvn >
avsm: I have a mini kernel for the RPi that initializes the UART and FB and outputs on both. My plan is to have stdin/stdout on the uart and provide a Graphics module for the FB.
11:38
<
avsm >
mrvn: cool! i have some usb code lying around somewhere…
11:38
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11:39
<
avsm >
mrvn: let me know if you upload that minikernel — lots of us interested in hooking pieces together for ARM support
11:39
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11:42
<
mrvn >
avsm: Is anyone working on getting mirage into debian?
11:43
<
avsm >
mrvn: yeah, but only after the 1.0 release when the interface settle down (scheduled for dec 9th).
11:43
<
NoNNaN >
flux: "The Xen-Blanket is deployed today on both Xen-based and KVM-based hypervisors", but I haven't tried yet, I am also interested on kvm support
11:43
<
avsm >
2013, before anyone wisecracks :)
11:44
<
avsm >
mrvn: that's a pretty baremeal repo: only a README?
11:44
<
mrvn >
avsm: when I tried building it I found that several dependencies are lacking
11:45
<
mrvn >
optcomp, ocplib-endian
11:45
<
avsm >
by lacking, you mean not included in the opam package?
11:45
<
avsm >
or not very good?
11:45
<
mrvn >
avsm: missing in debian
11:45
<
avsm >
oh, all the dev is source based through opam atm
11:46
<
avsm >
it's because the specific target architecture is picked by the constraint solver
11:46
<
avsm >
so if you need an OS module for Xen, it's selected via 'mirage-xen'
11:46
<
mrvn >
yeah. Just for getting it into debian it looks like you have to package several other packages as well.
11:46
<
avsm >
opam install mirage-xen mirage-www
11:46
<
avsm >
opam install mirage-unix mirage-www
11:46
<
avsm >
install a different set of modules
11:46
<
avsm >
since (for example) the event channel Evtchn module can either use Xen directly, or open /dev/evtchn under unix
11:47
<
avsm >
it avoids functorizing the entire application several times over
11:47
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11:47
<
Drup >
mrvn: this name is fantastic :D
11:47
<
mrvn >
Drup: think so too
11:48
<
NoNNaN >
avsm: do you know any threat model/security related project for mirage?
11:48
<
mrvn >
avsm: any tips for cross compiling? Or do you do all your arm work under arm linux?
11:50
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11:51
<
avsm >
NoNNaN: that's a broad question. we use it for several security related projects
11:51
<
avsm >
mrvn: dsheets is working on OPAM/ARM cross compilation right now, in fact :)
11:52
<
mrvn >
that will help
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11:53
<
dsheets >
right now, it's some packages with special compiler variants, a new ocamlfind toolchain, and patched ports
11:54
<
dsheets >
I think there is something to be done with pushing some of the cross-compiler variance into opam
11:54
<
dsheets >
perhaps with a new notion of a set of targets per switch
11:54
<
mrvn >
would be nice to get them upstream
11:54
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11:55
<
dsheets >
where a switch with multiple targets will ensure that each target is built and installed and kept in sync
11:55
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11:55
<
dsheets >
... that
*packages* for each target are built and installed ...
11:56
<
dsheets >
first I'm working on getting any opam management of the process then I will start generalizing the process into opam
11:56
<
mrvn >
looks like I have to learn opam
11:57
<
mrvn >
avsm: does mirage have its own GC or does it reuse the one ocaml already has?
11:57
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11:58
<
avsm >
reuses the ocaml one
11:58
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11:58
<
avsm >
but with some occasionally patches to optimize it, but those are optional
11:58
<
mrvn >
so no multicore support then :(
11:58
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11:59
<
avsm >
why do you need multicore on an rPi?
11:59
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11:59
<
NoNNaN >
mrvn: afaik single core only, you have to use multiple instances to exploit multicore
12:00
<
mrvn >
avsm: I also got an Udoo with a quad core cpu
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<
avsm >
the easiest thing in the short term is to bind the preemptive runtime patches to each core
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<
avsm >
and treat it as a distributed system
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<
mrvn >
and run each with 1/4 the ram?
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<
avsm >
which is, ultimately, a better way to use those devices than with a preemptive switching shell
12:01
<
avsm >
nah, you can control page mappings separately
12:01
<
avsm >
this is why you want to get it single core first
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<
avsm >
multicore needs changes to the heap structure too. exchange heaps, that sort of thing
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<
mrvn >
and multi-core save data structures
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<
avsm >
that work's all happening, but i'm keeping it separate from the mirage efforts for now, but of course it'll all gel nicely next year
12:04
<
Drup >
avsm: so, will mirage handle the multicore "à la luca" when this goes out ?
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<
avsm >
a preemptive runtime is easier to bind to individual cpus, yes
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<
avsm >
the programming model is still an open question we're looking into
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<
mrvn >
avsm: how do you get it preemptive?
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<
mrvn >
As a middle ground I was thinking of disabling interrupts in the GC and otside the GC it should be save to switch threads preemptively.
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<
mrvn >
have a start_critical_section() and stop_critical_section() to safeguard where it must not switch.
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<
companion_cube >
hi
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<
nicoo >
companion_cube: Hi.
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<
companion_cube >
\o
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<
nicoo >
companion_cube: Do you want to proof-read something for me ?
14:49
<
nicoo >
Disclaimer: I'm still flu-addled; beware.
14:49
<
companion_cube >
depends on what
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<
companion_cube >
:p
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<
Drup >
companion_cube: RUN AWAY §
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<
companion_cube >
I can't
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<
companion_cube >
I'm in my sofa
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<
mrvn >
run, run, ocamlrun
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<
dch >
Maybe somebody has a cachec copy they can share?
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