flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.01.0 http://bit.ly/1851A3R | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<ggole> Does opam install a copy of the ocaml docs? If not, can I ask it to?
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<adrien> morning
<adrien> wmeyer```: pong
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<jyeo> anyone with ocamlbuild experience? what's the difference between pp_ and syntax_ tags?
<Kakadu_> syntax is prefprocessor engine, pp is its options, AFAIR
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<jyeo> Kakadu_: it seems to be mutually exclusive. i can't use both
<Kakadu_> ah
<Kakadu_> i was talking about -syntax and -ppopt
<jyeo> oh i was referring to -pp and -syntax
<Kakadu_> heh
<Kakadu_> `ocamlc` has -pp and doesn't has -syntax
<jyeo> ocamlbuild has it
<Kakadu_> it seems nothing changes if I replace 'pp' to 'syntax' in _tags file
<Kakadu_> jyeo: You can try to contact gasche. He knows it, 100%
<jyeo> Kakadu_: is he here?
<jyeo> i.e. not afk?
<jyeo> what's his timezone?
<Kakadu_> He appears rather often
<Kakadu_> jyeo: Paris, AFAIK
<jyeo> great! thanks Kakadu_
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<gasche> jyeo: -syntax is ocamlfind-specific
<gasche> so it gets its semantics when you use (ocamlbuild -use-ocamlfind)
<gasche> what it does is tell ocamlfind to use the given preprocessor (typically you want -syntax camlp4o or -syntax camlp4of)
<gasche> unfortunately, today ocamlbuild's -pp is not terribly helpful, and ocamlfind's -ppopt is not supported
<gasche> interaction with syntax extensions could be improved
<jyeo> :-/
<gasche> is there something specific you want to do?
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<jyeo> well, i am getting syntax errors with my camlp4 extension ml file
<jyeo> i tried both -pp camlp4of and -syntax camp4of but nothing works
<jyeo> hmmm wait...it works...
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<jyeo> i was using pp_camlp4of in my _tags file. i have to change it to pp(camlp4of) to get it to work. :-/
<jyeo> hmmm this is weird
<gasche> do you use -use-ocamlfind?
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<gasche> here is an example of ocamlbuild invocation that results in "camlp4o Camlp4Parsers/Camlp4MacroParser.cmo -DFOO" being used as preprocessor
<gasche> ocamlbuild -use-ocamlfind -package camlp4.macro -syntax camlp4o -cflags -ppopt,-DFOO test.byte
<gasche> ocamlbuild -pp "camlp4of -DFOO" test.byte also works
<jyeo> i see
<jyeo> thanks gasche
<jyeo> i wish there's a better documentation for ocamlbuild
<jyeo> it's an awesome tool but it's hard to get it working with syntax extensions and oasis
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<Kakadu_> gasche: Do you know is ocamlbuild going to support `dynamic dependencies`?
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<Kakadu> btw, I have pushed initial implementation of YAML parser. https://github.com/Kakadu/camlyaml/blob/master/parser.ml What do yo uthink about y combinators?
<Kakadu> my*
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<gasche> Kakadu: what do you mean by "dynamic dependencies"? ocamlbuild is already quite dynamic
<Kakadu> coq extraction and compilation of generated mls.
<gasche> I think that's already possible
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<Kakadu> Somebody have told me that it is not
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<gasche> Kakadu: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/fa.caml/8tcZCYK41v8
<gasche> apparently Dmitry Grebeniuk had a problem when doing that
<gasche> I don't really understand the problem from the ML discussion, and the bitbucket link is dead
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<Kakadu> He just told me that he haven't succeded and he removed repo because this approach is useless
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<gasche> well
<gasche> without the code, I cannot tell whether his problem can be solved
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<gasche> but I would be surprised, given that we can use menhir (or dypgen or ...) to generate .ml/.mli from grammar descriptions, if we couldn't make Coq extraction work; I don't think it's that different
<gasche> (there may be things to do to handle the fact that coq files depend on each other, but well)
<gasche> Kakadu: in your YAML parser, why did you comment the (type json = ) declaration?
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<Kakadu> because it is not used by parser. I have copy pasted it to .ml to make parser result like in json
<gasche> (also I don't understand why you have to write all this (snd loc >= pos) stuff in the parser)
<Kakadu> to reuse yojson's pretty-printers
<Kakadu> YAML has 2-dimensional syntax like haskell
<gasche> oh
<gasche> re the json datatype
<gasche> I think it could help you catch bug if you annotated the start rule to say that it returns a `json`
<gasche> that way, if you make a typo in the name of a constructor in a production, you get a failure
<gasche> as the datatype is structural (a polymorphic variant), this will not impact anything else
<Kakadu> i.e. I copy-paste json datataype and annotate start rule?
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<gasche> well you wouldn't have to copy-paste, only uncomment it, but yes
<Kakadu> :)
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<kerneis> gasche: thanks, my first answer on SO
<mrvn> anyone using a different std lib for ocaml?
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<gasche> mrvn: I saw your question about replacing the runtime, and I'm a bit curious: what are you considering doing?
<mrvn> kerneis: are you using that?
<mrvn> gasche: writing an exokernel to run ocaml directly on a RasperyPI.
<mrvn> gasche: like openmirage for x86
<mrvn> kerneis: looks like they have their own compiler. I want to be a bit less intrusive.
<kerneis> mrvn: no, I've seen a talk about it
<gasche> then I guess js_of_ocaml would qualify, they reimplemented the primitives the runtime expects in a non-posix world
<gasche> re. ocapic, what I remember was that Benoît uses the stock ocamlrun, but does deadcode-elimination before, and has his own runtime indeed (implemented in PIC assembly!)
<avsm> mrvn: we're in the process of refactoring the mirage boot infrastructure to support xen/arm too (which is a hvm boot similar to uboot), so you might want to start a thread on cl-mirage@lists.cam.ac.uk
<mrvn> avsm: how does mirage get the compiler to link against the mirage kernel?
<avsm> it, uh, compiles it :-)
<avsm> -output-obj from ocaml gives a .o
<avsm> and then you just need to satisfy the gc dependencies, and supply a linker script
<avsm> which loader are you using. uboot?
<avsm> there's no real mirage kernel; just a boot library (which we're pulling out now atm to make it suitable for, e.g. halvm too)
<mrvn> avsm: RPi uses a loader non the GPU to load the arm kernel. It's a bit of an odd design. But it follows the normal arm boot protocol.
<avsm> yeah, but you can jump to uboot, right?
<mrvn> I could.
<avsm> that provides a reasonable environment jump into the ocaml runtime from
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<avsm> if you can get a caml_startup running, then hooking in various mirage libraries should be a breeze (and fun) — djs55 has a terminal library almost complete that would rasterize onto the framebuffer. and https://github.com/djs55/ocaml-vnc too
<avsm> i'm spending more time looking at the cubie2 atm, since it has a more interesting xen-capable a15
<mrvn> avsm: so to recap: You compile with -output-obj to get a .o file for the ocaml code. then you link that together with mirage to get the full kernel. No other magic?
<avsm> not with mirage — just a boot library that brings up a xen shared info page
<avsm> mirage is called mirage since it doesn't really exist. it's all a set of libraries
<avsm> e.g. here's a kernel module backend that gabor forked this summer; https://github.com/pgj/mirage-kfreebsd
<Drup> "Mirage, the kernel that doesn't exist"
<flux> wish mirage worked with virtualbox, vmware and kvm as well. or does it? it would make it so much nicer to try it out.
<Drup> not sure if it's a good marketing plan :D
<avsm> so ubiquitous its everywhere … and nowhere
<mrvn> flux: or bochs
<avsm> flux: yeah. jonludlam has an hvm boot backend that should be adaptable to them
<flux> qemu
<avsm> its all glue. lots and lots of glue :)
<NoNNaN> flux: as far as I remember, there is a xenblanket project
<flux> nonnan, which is.. ?
<flux> "The Xen-Blanket aims to give cloud users hypervisor-level control on public or private clouds by running a second-layer (Xen) hypervisor. This code release contains patches to Xen and Linux drivers to allow a second-layer guest to interact with underlying paravirtualized device interfaces essential for performance and deployability."
<NoNNaN> flux: it provides hypervison on hypervisor
<mrvn> avsm: I have a mini kernel for the RPi that initializes the UART and FB and outputs on both. My plan is to have stdin/stdout on the uart and provide a Graphics module for the FB.
<avsm> mrvn: cool! i have some usb code lying around somewhere…
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<avsm> mrvn: let me know if you upload that minikernel — lots of us interested in hooking pieces together for ARM support
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<mrvn> avsm: It's totaly RPi specific.https://github.com/mrvn/RaspberryPi-baremetal
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<mrvn> avsm: Is anyone working on getting mirage into debian?
<avsm> mrvn: yeah, but only after the 1.0 release when the interface settle down (scheduled for dec 9th).
<NoNNaN> flux: "The Xen-Blanket is deployed today on both Xen-based and KVM-based hypervisors", but I haven't tried yet, I am also interested on kvm support
<avsm> 2013, before anyone wisecracks :)
<avsm> mrvn: that's a pretty baremeal repo: only a README?
<mrvn> avsm: when I tried building it I found that several dependencies are lacking
<avsm> like?
<mrvn> optcomp, ocplib-endian
<avsm> by lacking, you mean not included in the opam package?
<avsm> or not very good?
<mrvn> avsm: missing in debian
<avsm> oh, all the dev is source based through opam atm
<avsm> it's because the specific target architecture is picked by the constraint solver
<avsm> so if you need an OS module for Xen, it's selected via 'mirage-xen'
<mrvn> yeah. Just for getting it into debian it looks like you have to package several other packages as well.
<avsm> opam install mirage-xen mirage-www
<avsm> opam install mirage-unix mirage-www
<avsm> install a different set of modules
<avsm> since (for example) the event channel Evtchn module can either use Xen directly, or open /dev/evtchn under unix
<avsm> it avoids functorizing the entire application several times over
<mrvn> avsm: try https://github.com/mrvn/raspbootin, not sure whats up with the baremetal repository just now.
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<Drup> mrvn: this name is fantastic :D
<mrvn> Drup: think so too
<NoNNaN> avsm: do you know any threat model/security related project for mirage?
<mrvn> avsm: any tips for cross compiling? Or do you do all your arm work under arm linux?
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<avsm> NoNNaN: that's a broad question. we use it for several security related projects
<avsm> mrvn: dsheets is working on OPAM/ARM cross compilation right now, in fact :)
<mrvn> that will help
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<dsheets> right now, it's some packages with special compiler variants, a new ocamlfind toolchain, and patched ports
<dsheets> I think there is something to be done with pushing some of the cross-compiler variance into opam
<dsheets> perhaps with a new notion of a set of targets per switch
<mrvn> would be nice to get them upstream
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<dsheets> where a switch with multiple targets will ensure that each target is built and installed and kept in sync
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<dsheets> ... that *packages* for each target are built and installed ...
<dsheets> first I'm working on getting any opam management of the process then I will start generalizing the process into opam
<mrvn> looks like I have to learn opam
<mrvn> avsm: does mirage have its own GC or does it reuse the one ocaml already has?
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<avsm> reuses the ocaml one
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<avsm> but with some occasionally patches to optimize it, but those are optional
<mrvn> so no multicore support then :(
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<avsm> why do you need multicore on an rPi?
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<NoNNaN> mrvn: afaik single core only, you have to use multiple instances to exploit multicore
<mrvn> avsm: I also got an Udoo with a quad core cpu
<avsm> the easiest thing in the short term is to bind the preemptive runtime patches to each core
<avsm> and treat it as a distributed system
<mrvn> and run each with 1/4 the ram?
<avsm> which is, ultimately, a better way to use those devices than with a preemptive switching shell
<avsm> nah, you can control page mappings separately
<avsm> this is why you want to get it single core first
<avsm> multicore needs changes to the heap structure too. exchange heaps, that sort of thing
<mrvn> and multi-core save data structures
<avsm> yeah
<avsm> that work's all happening, but i'm keeping it separate from the mirage efforts for now, but of course it'll all gel nicely next year
<Drup> avsm: so, will mirage handle the multicore "à la luca" when this goes out ?
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<avsm> a preemptive runtime is easier to bind to individual cpus, yes
<avsm> the programming model is still an open question we're looking into
<Drup> ok
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<mrvn> avsm: how do you get it preemptive?
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<mrvn> As a middle ground I was thinking of disabling interrupts in the GC and otside the GC it should be save to switch threads preemptively.
<mrvn> have a start_critical_section() and stop_critical_section() to safeguard where it must not switch.
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<companion_cube> hi
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<nicoo> companion_cube: Hi.
<companion_cube> \o
<nicoo> companion_cube: Do you want to proof-read something for me ?
<nicoo> Disclaimer: I'm still flu-addled; beware.
<companion_cube> depends on what
<companion_cube> :p
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<Drup> companion_cube: RUN AWAY §
<companion_cube> I can't
<companion_cube> I'm in my sofa
<mrvn> run, run, ocamlrun
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<dch> fresh try to install opam on OSX mavericks via homebrew fails: https://gist.github.com/dch/d3b66b90437aaa454ded has all details.
<dch> I *think* its because http://erratique.ch/software/cmdliner/releases/cmdliner-0.9.3.tbz isn’t available.
<dch> Maybe somebody has a cachec copy they can share?
<dch> *cached
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