flux changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.01.0 http://bit.ly/1851A3R | http://www.ocaml.org | Public logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/ocaml/
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<jle`> is it idiomatic ocaml to do that alignment/lambda dance to deal with monads
<jle`> the whole a >>= fun x ->
<jle`> b >>= fun y ->
<jle`> stuff
<orbitz> jle`: i generally put the >>= fun .. on the same line as the rest of teh rexpession, aligned
<orbitz> i'll put the >>= fun part on its own line if the expression is really long
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<Drup> conclusion of my parmap experimentations : even if you distribute the load, when the data structure is not good for the job, it's still slow :/
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<coder_> Guys, I am looking for work from home job in ocml list, c++. any ideas?
<coder_> Sorry if this is not very emacs related.
<gasche> coder_: emacs related? you're on #ocaml
<gasche> so you would like to program from home, in OCaml?
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<wmeyer> hi ..
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<NoNNaN> does anybody know a wcet (worst case execution time) tool for ocaml ?
<whitequark> NoNNaN: can you show a non-ocaml example?
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<NoNNaN> whitequark: it's a wcet tool for java processor (implemented on fpga)
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<whitequark> NoNNaN: I don't think there are ocaml processors?
<NoNNaN> whitequark: I know, I am just looking for wcet analysis for ocaml
<whitequark> do I understand it right, wcet looks at code and determines how long will it take for hardware to run if it mispredicts all branches, doesn't have any cache lines ready, ... ?
<NoNNaN> and you asked me for non-ocaml example for such a tool
<whitequark> I would think that you'll compile ocaml into native code and then use whatever tools you have for examining that on your target platform.
<NoNNaN> whitequark: for hard wcet yes, for soft wcet this details ignored
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<NoNNaN> whitequark: I have found a functional language, hume that has sime kind of resource/wcet annotation in the language, but I havent found anything for ocaml: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hume_%28programming_language%29
<whitequark> NoNNaN: what kind of assumptions would soft wcet use?
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<NoNNaN> whitequark: it's us a simplified pessimistic model of the hw, for more detailed wcet every piece of the hardware has proper model eg.: http://www.jopdesign.com/publications.html
<NoNNaN> whitequark: eg.: An SDRAM Controller for Real-Time Systems
<NoNNaN> in theory, ocamljava output could run on jop
<NoNNaN> probably the only missing piece would be the invokedynamic bytecode implementation (ocamljava target java7)
<whitequark> invokedynamic can be tricky.
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<whitequark> I don't know how complex could its implementation be, but that's worth a try.
<NoNNaN> I have checked the ocapic project too, but it use a zam interpreter
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* whitequark is playing with ocamljava
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<bernardofpc> is there a way to iterate over all keys of a hashtable ?
<adrien> Hashtbl.iter?
<bernardofpc> I'm thinking of using that as a map 'a -> 'b list through find_all
<bernardofpc> but maybe I might just make my hashtable add more complex and have unique keys
<adrien> you want only one call per key?
<adrien> ok
<adrien> I'd do that :)
<adrien> or
<adrien> you could do it with fold
<pippijn> I like unique keys
<adrien> if I understand correctly, multiple bindings for the same key will be visited one after the other
<pippijn> yes, in insertion order
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<adrien> so your fold can keep track of the "previous" key and if the "current" one is the same, don't do anything
<pippijn> eh
<adrien> but '=' would probably be costly
<pippijn> in reverse insertion order
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<wmeyer> adrien: I just committed your fix today, thanks.
<pippijn> hi wmeyer
<adrien> wmeyer: thanks and great!
<wmeyer> hi pippijn
<bernardofpc> the thing is that my values 'b come one by one, and I want to group them according to f('b) : 'a
<bernardofpc> and then process each group separetedly
* adrien needs to check if the asian traiteur is open
<adrien> (and no, it's not a "traitor")
<bernardofpc> using Hashtbl.add frees me from the logic "test if exists, do remove ; insert modified else add new element"
<Drup> bernardofpc: wouldn't a regular Map solve the issue ?
<bernardofpc> Drup: maybe
<bernardofpc> I don't know Map very well :/
<bernardofpc> what's the difference between Map and Hashtbl ?
<Drup> Map is functionnal
<Drup> the access cost are in log, not O(1)
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<Drup> your key ave to be comparable, in some way
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<bernardofpc> it's a list of ints, that should do
<Drup> and there is no "old bindings" stuff
<pippijn> your key is "int list"?
<bernardofpc> yep
<pippijn> ok
<bernardofpc> could be an int, though
<pippijn> small ints?
<bernardofpc> yes
<pippijn> a fixed number of ints?
<bernardofpc> yes
<Drup> why do you use a list ? :D
<pippijn> then you can use an array
<pippijn> as map
<bernardofpc> sure
<adrien> key is "int list" or keys are ints?
<ggole> There are nice tricks for sparse sets/maps for integers, too
<bernardofpc> key is like [1;5;8;9]
<ggole> (If you don't need union and other such operations.)
<adrien> if key is int list, you might get a baaaad performance with hashtbl
<adrien> maybe not deep enough
<adrien> and maybe not with new versions of ocaml
<Drup> bernardofpc: if you have fixed number of int, use a tuple
<Drup> or better, a record
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<bernardofpc> right
<adrien> or if they're small, a + 100*b + 10000*c + 1000000*d :D
<Drup> adrien : indeed :p
<bernardofpc> :D
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<Drup> bernardofpc: and if you are going to use Map, take care of using a specialize comparison function
<bernardofpc> right :D
<bernardofpc> also
<bernardofpc> Let me state my problem again: from something like a "'b list" and f : 'b -> 'a, I'd like to retrieve a "'b list list" where on each list all elements have the same f
<bernardofpc> like "calculate the sets f^(-1){a} for a in f(B)"
<bernardofpc> I could sort the 'b list, then "split", but that seems a bit strange
<Anarchos> bernardofpc use List.partition
<Anarchos> (or List.filter)
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<bernardofpc> Anarchos: the problem is that the ratio "bs that have the same f(b)" is small, so at the end I'd go through many calls of partition ?
<Anarchos> bernardofpc i can't help you further, i am not an ocaml algorithm expert :)
<bernardofpc> no pb, thanks I didn't know partition
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<davidDenver> it seems that all of the documentation that I have found so far is very poorly written for beginners. is there a pdf I can read on syntax? also, as an example what is 'elt' here? # let rec sort lst =
<davidDenver> # match lst with
<davidDenver> # [] -> []
<davidDenver> # | head :: tail -> insert head (sort tail)
<davidDenver> # and insert elt lst =.... I also don't see any 'insert' function documentation.
<davidDenver> is '1st' just an argument?
<Drup> let ... and .... is the mutually recrusive declaration
<Drup> so, insert is a new function, in your code.
<davidDenver> oic
<davidDenver> so let is let
<davidDenver> and elt is recursive?
<pippijn> it should be let rec
<davidDenver> recursive let?
<pippijn> let rec is recursive
<pippijn> let ... and is not (mutually) recursive
<davidDenver> no no no, if you go to the ocaml manual
<davidDenver> the code is like above.
<davidDenver> so the question is what is "elt"
<pippijn> yes, and you see "let rec"
<davidDenver> it's all over the place
<pippijn> elt is just a name
<pippijn> elt means element
<pippijn> insert element list
<davidDenver> aha
<pippijn> shortened to insert elt lst
<davidDenver> ok great
<davidDenver> where would I find abbreviations like that? a pdf? url?
<pippijn> good question :)
<davidDenver> I've been coding for 40 years, so I'm not a rank beginner, just new to ocaml
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<Drup> it's just naming practice, I don't know if it's defined somewhere :p
<davidDenver> there seem to be a lot of assumption with respect to syntax
<davidDenver> like:
<davidDenver> # match lst with
<davidDenver> # [] -> []
<davidDenver> what is with the brackets?
<davidDenver> I understand it's a match
<davidDenver> so is it substantially global = global? in that it matches anything?
<davidDenver> that's a list?
<davidDenver> I'm assuming '1st' is a variable
<davidDenver> hold on
<Drup> so, as explained here, yes, it's a list
<davidDenver> yeah, that's where I got it from
<davidDenver> but it doesn't explain the syntax
<davidDenver> as to why you do it.
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<davidDenver> what does the bracket assignment mean? [] -> []
<Drup> hum, the explanations of pattern matching is not extremely good, but not terrible either.
<davidDenver> I understand regex pattern matching
<davidDenver> but empty brackets don't mean anything to me
<Drup> davidDenver: It's not an assignment, it means "if the list "lst" looks like an empty list [], then give an empty list []
<davidDenver> well there you go, that makes sense.
<davidDenver> so it's returning an empty list when it sees an empty list
<Drup> davidDenver: to be honest, the manual is a good manual but not a very good tutorial
<Drup> you can find better ones on the net
<davidDenver> so you could match [] -> [1;2;3]
<davidDenver> so if the list '1st' matched empty you could return a list of 1,2,3.
<Drup> especially if you are not familiar with the functional paradigm.
<Drup> (yes, that works)
<davidDenver> all they have to do is explain the basics and anyone with an IQ over 145 can figure it out, and since most programmers are way over that, which is why we are programmers, they really should just explain the basic syntax right up front.
<davidDenver> I bought an Ocaml book
<davidDenver> Practical Ocaml
<davidDenver> a little old, but I like older books
<davidDenver> the code is going to be more tested.
<davidDenver> should I buy something else?
<Drup> http://ocaml.org/tutorials/index.html look here for some other tutorials, http://ocaml.org/books.html for some books
<davidDenver> ok, that helps. One other topic really quick
<Drup> the new book Real World Ocaml is very new and seems to be quite good
<davidDenver> I have found ocamlnet
<davidDenver> what, in a nutshell I need to do
<davidDenver> is to have a basic working example of a web page
<davidDenver> that connects to a postgres database
<davidDenver> I have found the postgres driver
<davidDenver> and ocamlnet
<davidDenver> I have ocaml 3.11.2-2 from debian squeeze
<Drup> davidDenver: not to be presumptuous or something, but if you are on the step of understanding pattern matching, you still have a bit of work ;)
<davidDenver> the question is that I need a resource for setting up the cgi so that there is one basic page that has form data, and then insert into the postgres table.
<davidDenver> I understand regex, and I'll figure it out pretty quick
<davidDenver> once I have the basic idea down. like I've said, I've coded for 40 years, so all I have to do is get a grip on the syntax.
<davidDenver> is there a HOWTO on cgi setup with ocamlnet?
<Drup> it has nothing do to with regex
<davidDenver> yeah, I realize that
<Drup> davidDenver: with what language did you worked ?
<davidDenver> everything from assembler on up. c++, cobol, fortran, modern stuff like php, I've learned over the years probably a dozen languages. nothing functional though.
<davidDenver> I've looked at haskell
<davidDenver> but settled on ocaml
<Drup> ok
<davidDenver> frankly, the reason is the benchmarking
<davidDenver> compiled ocaml over the net
<Drup> you will see that a good chunk of you programming experiences will not help you
<davidDenver> is as fast as assembler
<davidDenver> yes, I'm seeing that
<davidDenver> it's a different way of thinking
<Drup> so, don't rush it, take your time :)
<davidDenver> if I have a working web example, I can expand from there
<Drup> it's not really difficult, if you accept ot "forget" (not completly, of course !) what you are used to
<davidDenver> frankly what I would do is write my procs and triggers in the database and simply use the ocaml for the cgi
<Drup> I don't use ocamlnet, so I don't have any exemples for you, sorry.
<davidDenver> there is no SMP in ocaml? compiled code?
<davidDenver> I see there are threads though
<davidDenver> would you say I need to put my emphasis right now on pattern matching?
<Drup> well, it's a very used feature, but it goes with a lot of other stuff :)
<davidDenver> I'll go look at that Oreilly book.
<davidDenver> thanks for the time
<Drup> no problem.
<davidDenver> I just went to the link, is there a pdf of it?
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<Drup> there is an online version for the beta, there should be a pdf as soon as it's out.
<Drup> (that's for RWO)
<davidDenver> I don't know RWO
<davidDenver> read write only?
<Drup> (Real World Ocaml)
<Drup> for the one I linked directly, yes, pdf here : http://caml.inria.fr/pub/docs/oreilly-book/ocaml-ora-book.pdf
<davidDenver> got it, thanks.
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<coder_> Guys, I am looking for a work-from-home job. hopefully in C++/Ocaml/scripts related. but anything will be fine. Any advice?
<adrien> aarrrrghgggggggh! "let rec sort lst ="; "is '1st' just an argument?" <- lst/1st, letter l/L or number 1
<adrien> some of you need better fonts
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<mrvn> lst short for list
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<Drup> code there is a job ocaml mailing list, you can look into that
<Drup> coder_* but he left :/
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<Xenasis> I assume this is the same person :P
<coder-rc> Yeah, just dc so I didn't see what you said.
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<coder-rc> Drup: cann't find it
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<Rc43> Hi, guys.
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<Rc43> My question is mainly about coq, but maybe you can give me the clues.
<Rc43> I am trying to install coq on my ubuntu, but SOMEHOW it depends on gnome, gtk and other stuff which I do not want to install.
<Rc43> E.g. virtual package `libcoq-ocaml-twu11', what is it? What means "twu11"? I googled, but couldnt resolve by myself.
<Rc43> Maybe anybody know, what means "twu11" and is it possible to replace with other lib version?
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<Xenasis> Try #coq as well - those people might know if this channel doesn't
<Rc43> Xenasis, yep, tried it too
<Xenasis> I'm unsure myself, I couldn't apt-get Coq because it depended on OCaml 3.12 (I have >4 installed) and it wouldn't make for some reason
<Xenasis> ...so I just used Agda
<Rc43> maybe I can just forbid these pacakges and install ignoring dependencies
<Rc43> Any thoughts about meaning of "twu11" suffix?
<Xenasis> According to google it includes runtime libraries for Coq
<Drup> Rc43: If you compile coq by yourself, I think you can disable the gnome part.
<Rc43> `apt-cache search' just shows `libcoq-ocaml'; what's the difference?
<Rc43> Drup, ye, but don't like to compile by myself
<Xenasis> Yeah, I sort of agree with the sentiment
<Xenasis> I've heard that Coq's relatively outdated on apt anyway
<Drup> baah, your too shy :D
<Xenasis> Hell, so is OCaml