adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | Current MOOC: https://huit.re/ocamlmooc | OCaml 4.04.0 release notes: http://ocaml.org/releases/4.04.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<flux> leonidas, btw, I'm working on RTM for slacko.. I hope nobody hasn't yet implemented it?-)
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<Leonidas> flux: I don't think so. Thanks, looking forward to it. I should really get to fix the existing endpoints, but I'm currently rather busy moving and wrapping my things up :|
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<Leonidas> flux: but I guess I'll have more time in April, and also more reason to use Slacko :)
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<steve_gh> Hi, I have a query about type signatures: I define a module type interface containing
<steve_gh> type t = element list
<steve_gh> type v
<steve_gh> val lift : (v -> v) -> t -> t
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<steve_gh> when I instantiate the lift function I get a type mismatch error
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<steve_gh> Values do not match: val lift : ff:(v -> v) -> element list -> element list is not included in val lift : (v -> v)
<steve_gh> -> t -> t
<theblatte> your implementation has a named argument, the interface doesn't
<theblatte> "ff:(v -> v)" vs "(v -> v)"
<steve_gh> I'm not sure what the problem is - my understanding is that the signature defines a t as being an element list
<steve_gh> but the compiler thinks that a t and an eleemnt list are different in tis context
<theblatte> I think "t" vs "element list" is a red herring
<steve_gh> ahh - so I need to name the argument in the signature
<theblatte> the compiler probably knows they are the same and it's complaining about the named argument
<theblatte> yes
<steve_gh> thanks <theblatte> - seems to do the trick
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<theblatte> why ocaml shows you "element list" on one side and "t" on the other I don't know, sigh...
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<reynir> Elaborate prank
<reynir> (hopefully not)
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<companion_cube> it would still be nice to have proper type diffs
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<jerith> Leonidas, flux: I'm going to try take a stab at writing some tests for slacko.
<jerith> So far I've managed to get "assert_equal 1 1" (and "assert_equal 1 2" which fails) working with a little lwt test wrapper thing.
<Leonidas> jerith: qcheck! :)
<jerith> Leonidas: My little wrapper thing can probably go inside qcheck properties as easily as at ounit2 tests.
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<Leonidas> jerith: yes, I would expect it should work just fine :-)
<flux> jerith, cool! I suppose the tests would mainly test if it can parse whatever the slack server throws it?
<jerith> I want to start by figuring out how to talk to slack (preferably a fake slack) in tests.
<flux> yes, start the project by writing a slack server clone ;-)
<Leonidas> i wonder whether it is possible to call Travis CI every couple of weeks to make sure the interface did not break
<flux> remember to take flooding limits into account when testing against real server.
<jerith> And probably have a way to run against a real slack server for a subset of the tests to make sure the fake slack works for the things we don't need to control the server side for.
<Leonidas> jerith: you can talk to real slack, the token can be supplied as secret env var
* Leonidas can put in his own token, no problem
<jerith> I've done this kind of thing a lot in Python.
<jerith> Leonidas: For certain kinds of tests, it's really nice to control what the server does.
<jerith> Also, talking to the public internet in your CI environment makes for flakey tests.
<jerith> At least slack is likely to be less awful to test that twitter.
<jerith> *than
<Leonidas> jerith: yeah, it'd then be an integration-y test. Which is fine.
<jerith> Yeah. The plan is to have both.
<Leonidas> Since well there is just one Slack and if slacko doesn't work against it, then there is not much point :)
<jerith> A pattern I've found very useful for this stuff is to put an abstraction boundary between the tests and the thing the tests talk to.
<Leonidas> jerith: sure, I'm not aguing against this :)
<Leonidas> I also have abstractions which replace e.g. a database
<Leonidas> but then, the surface is also smaller and I control both sides
<jerith> Then run against a fake (fast, controllable, etc.) for everything and occasionally run against the real service for the subset that it's feasible for to make sure the API hasn't changed underneath us.
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<jerith> For my own services, I usually build a "verified fake" which is a lightweight in-memory version that clients can pull into their tests.
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<Leonidas> the problem is that you have to make sure the fake works as the original which can be tough
<jerith> The "verified" bit is that I run the same tests against the real thing and the fake during builds of the real thing.
<jerith> That obviously only works if you're the person building the real thing. :-)
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<Leonidas> maybe I should reach out to Slack whether they want to employ me :D
<jerith> But building a fake that looks right and then running against the real service occasionally to verify it is better than nothing.
<jerith> (It helps that when I build services at work I also usually build a client at the same time and everything's in the same language.)
<jerith> Anyway, all of this is subject to actually having some free time to work on it.
<Leonidas> Tell me about it :-/
<jerith> Also, my cunning plan is to expose some kind of test API to programs that use slacko and want to test it.
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<jerith> That want to test their use of slacko, that is. They shouldn't have to test slacko itself. :-)
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<Leonidas> I sometimes think of slacko as a tool to test slack itself :p
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<flux> I understand the problem is that the specification of slacko isn't complete, and perhaps not even correct from all the parts that are provided
<jerith> I think the problem is that the slack API has changed since slacko was written.
<flux> wouldn't you have the exact same problem with a dummy server?
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<jerith> Yes, which is why we need some integration tests that hit the real thing as well.
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<n342> ?
<n342> hi, i was looking for a multidimensional optimization library in ocaml
<n342> i found Gsl_multimin in gsl-ocaml
<n342> is this the best one? are there other options?
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<lfish> I have a little snippet of code I'm not quite sure of... are there any sites where I can upload it to get a review?
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<_y> plenty
<thizanne> https://gist.github.com/ for one
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<lfish> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/f65af705804c664c3d76edc1a84ce252 there I put it, if anyone is interested... the idea was to make a polymorphic container with a pretty-printer, the sexp choice is unimportant
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<shepi> hi!
<shepi> Here for a quick question: Is it possible, using OASIS, to define a custom command to replace the build command for only one library?
<shepi> If I get it right, the custom module operates only globally ...
<shepi> *the custom plugin, not module
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<orbifx> is it worth avoiding re-wrapping all values with lwt if they are not doing anything significant?
<companion_cube> yes?
<companion_cube> only put in Lwt.t what needs it
<companion_cube> all the rest can stay pure
<orbifx> boxing and unboxing is not free right?
<companion_cube> well, if you don't need it, don't do it
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<orbifx> okay
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<twold> hello
<twold> I was wondering whether anyone here is familiar with the status of the multicore ocaml.
<companion_cube> not ready yet™
<twold> I tried playing with it and it's amazing but many packages can't be built with it.
<twold> Would it be a worthwhile effort to try patching them?
<companion_cube> I don't think so, it won't be merged until it can compile any normal OCaml code
<twold> Also, would it be fine trying to build a toy project on it with a hope that it will be eventually merged into mainline e.g. this year?
<companion_cube> I wouldn't bet on this year :/
<twold> :'(
<companion_cube> maybe the first building blocs will land this year (effects), but the whole multicore, I'm doubtful
<twold> Oh, effects + lightweight threads would be quite great already even without multicore support. But are those features developer separately?
<twold> s/developer/developed/
<companion_cube> I don't think so, there's a first PR on the path to multicore, afaik
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<twold> thanks
<orbifx> twold: seen Lwt?
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<twold> seen and liked. if you tell how to do blocking calls with it, I'll buy you a beer :)
<orbifx> what do you mean how to do blocking calls?
<orbifx> how to wrap existing code with blocking calls?
<twold> how to turn existing blocking calls into lwt threads, basically
<twold> unless the lwt already has support for it (like with lwt_unix), I don't think you can do it
<orbifx> yeah that's probably too
<twold> but I'd love to be wrong!
<orbifx> you can probably wrap code your self but that depends on how much time you have
<orbifx> you may also be able to use native threads and wrap them with lwt threads
<orbifx> thinking out loud here
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<twold> Hm, depends how difficult it is. I might give it a shot but I'd need some pointers, I don't understand lwt internals at all.
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<companion_cube> !iterators
<companion_cube> !iterators = https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml/pull/1002
<ocabot_> OK.
<Algebr``> twold: Lwt.wrap
<companion_cube> !pr_multicore1 = https://github.com/ocaml/ocaml/pull/1003
<orbifx> twold: I'll answer all I can :)
<twold> To explain what I'm trying to achieve, I want to create a graphics app with multiple (lightweight) threads. In Haskell it's trivial, so I hoped I'd find a way to do it in Ocaml too :)
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<twold> I'll check out lwt.wrap.
<_y> (companion_cube, are you using some kind of bot or script or something?)
<orbifx> Algebr``: do you know if `wrap` can cope with blocking code?
<Algebr``> should be a bot
<Algebr``> orbifx: I thought that was the right way to do it
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<Algebr``> Oh blocking code
<orbifx> Algebr``: I think it wraps the value, but doens't mean it will yield if the code is blocking
<companion_cube> _y: yes
<orbifx> twold: what is important to understand about lwt (in my brief experience thus far) is that they are cooperative threads
<twold> yes, I know that. that's why it's impossible to use blocking calls from the outside (unless I'm missing something). but there still should be a way to add them internally (although that might be way too difficult a task for what I want to achieve)
<Algebr``> you use Lwt.wait
<Algebr``> pretty sure.
<twold> yes, that's the idea but you still need some internal support, like here from lwt_engine
<Drup> twold: I missed the beginning, what are you trying to do ?
<orbifx> granted that there would be merit for the core language to multicore support, what are you wanting to achieve in this case _whitelogger ?
<orbifx> oops, meant to write twold
<twold> Drup: oh, just write an interactive graphics app with several threads: one for processing input, one for updating state, one for rendering, ...you get the idea
<Drup> twold: to turn a blocking call into an lwt thread, use Lwt_preemptive
<twold> and I'd like to use lightweight threads if at all possible. if not, I'll fall back to OS threads, I suppose
<Drup> it'll spawn an OS thread and wrap it inside an lwt promise to make it interact with the rest of lwt cleanly
<twold> orbifx: oh, I just wanted the threads, no matter the cost :) I know multicore is overkill. still, the effects there are beautiful and I'd definitely use those too
<orbifx> twold: Drup is right about using preemptive
<twold> Drup: thanks, sounds like exactly what I need
<orbifx> twold: also it will be most likely system calls that block, in which case lwt_unix might have most of the wrapped. But where not, use preemptive as Drup suggested.
<orbifx> Go for it :D
<companion_cube> with effects, will there be no need for lwt anymore? :p
<Drup> If you want to interact with an existing event look, look at Lwt_glib for an example on how to do it
<Drup> event loop*
<twold> great hints everyone, I think I can play with this stuff for couple more hours before hitting another wall. many thanks :)
<orbifx> :)
<orbifx> new to ocaml twold ?
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<twold> yeah, only started a week ago or so
<orbifx> welcome
<companion_cube> welcome indeed!
<twold> but I'm familiar with Haskell and Standard ML, so it's the ecosystem I'm getting stuck at mostly
<twold> thank you :)
<orbifx> you aren't alone
<orbifx> the ecosystem if daunting at first
<orbifx> if not downright irritating
<Drup> twold: Lwt_react (and react itself) might be of interest too
<mengu> twold: core is an awesome library, opam is working, tuareg & merlin is good
<twold> yeah, it makes me wanna quit roughly every five minutes :D I'm glad I haven't yet, I think I'm beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel :)
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<mengu> the only thing lacking is docs but when we're stuck, nice fellas here is always giving a hand
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<orbifx> twold: don't quit for 3-6 months, then decide :P
<twold> Drup: thanks, I'll keep Lwt_react in mind, although I played with reactive stuff enough to know it's usually more pain than gain
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<twold> well, #ocaml definitely saved the day for me today :)
<orbifx> I worked with Haskell for year before moving on to OCaml, because of haskells compilers and tools. I liked that with OCaml seems to care about lower level more
<Drup> FRP+haskell is a bit annoying because of lazyness and space leaks, it's less disastrous in OCaml, although it's indeed an acquired taste
<companion_cube> merlin is definitely better than anything similar in haskell
<mengu> tuareg is also superior
<mengu> emacs & haskell don't go hand in hand
<mengu> vim's haskell support is superior
<Armael> what's the complexity of set intersection? (using Set from the stdlib)
<Drup> Armael: pretty sure you can't do better than n² with comparison-based approached, no ?
<twold> mengu: not true anymore, intero is a great mode for emacs
<twold> I'd say better than tuareg, but I'm not that familiar with tuareg yet
<mengu> twold: i have intero
<twold> oh, so if you think tuareg is better then I'm looking forward to learning more :)
<mengu> and haskell-mode
<Armael> Drup: yea I guess
<companion_cube> Drup: I'd bet it's lower
<companion_cube> Set.union is definitely less than n²
<companion_cube> (thanks to the recursive split)
<Drup> hum, right
<companion_cube> I think it's something like O(n log(n)), where n is the size of the intersection
<twold> O(m*log(nm + 1)), m <= n for sets of different size
<twold> I mean, I'm not sure Ocaml's implementation is this fast, just that there is an algorithm
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<companion_cube> possibly
<companion_cube> the sets are pretty fast
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<orbifx> is it possibly to apply? a `try ... with ...` expression
<orbifx> is it possibly to apply a `try ... with ...` expression
<companion_cube> (try f with _ -> g) x
<companion_cube> you mean that?
<orbifx> yeah
<companion_cube> sure
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<orbifx> even with a partially applied function?
<orbifx> let f x y z = ... in (try f x y with ...) z
<orbifx> ?
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<companion_cube> well, it's an expression like any other
<companion_cube> it just works
<orbifx> I've got: param req par_name |> Lwt.return >|= (try selector repo with Sys_error _ -> None) >>= ...
<orbifx> if I move the `try selector ...` out of the chain and apply the argument normally, it works
<orbifx> but when I have it as a partially applied function in the chain, compilation fails with: Error: This expression has type 'a option
<orbifx> but an expression was expected of type string -> 'b
<companion_cube> just a normal type error
<companion_cube> can't help you with just that :p
<companion_cube> remember that `selector repo` should have the type option
<companion_cube> clearly it is partially applied
<orbifx> I think it's not possible to have a partially applied function inside a try .. with
<companion_cube> it is
<companion_cube> but you return `None` in the `with` branch
<orbifx> come to think about it, the application is not being tried, it would mean that I am asking it to try the partially applied function, not the evaluation of it
<companion_cube> which is clearly not a function :p
<companion_cube> partially applied functions can sometimes raise :p
<companion_cube> let f x = if x=0 then raise Exit; fun y -> y/x
<orbifx> right, so I would need to return (fun _ -> None)
<orbifx> I don't think that makes sense :P
<companion_cube> why not?
<companion_cube> (well, it's a bit odd, but it's valid)
<orbifx> it "tries" something (i.e. after it has applied the argument) and then if that fails it return a function to be applied to what?
<companion_cube> to the remaining arguments?
<orbifx> the argument was already used.
<companion_cube> then it's not partially applied -_-
<orbifx> what if the argument has mutability ? the exception handler and normally expression would be applied to different values
<companion_cube> I really don't get what you're trying to do, honestly
<companion_cube> try any expression, it works
<companion_cube> you just have to put the same type in `try` and `with`
<orbifx> I'm trying it.. and it would be kinda cool if it reused the same value (i.e. it trys to apply it to one and if not it applied it to the exception handler)
<companion_cube> it would be kinda inconsistent, you mean :p
<orbifx> yes
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<orbifx> wait no :P
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<orbifx> was trying it now, it compiles
<shon> Heya.
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<orbifx> this is pretty cool. So it applies to the value, and it that application raises, then it applies the value to the exception handler?
<shon> What's the standard practice for using utop with a project involving many modules etc?
<shon> Does one just build an intracte init, or build a custom utop?
<shon> *intricate
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<companion_cube> orbifx: it evaluates the usual way `try with` works
<companion_cube> nothing is different, (partially applied) functions are like any other values
<companion_cube> shon: I tend to write a .ocamlinit
<shon> Thank companion_cube. That makes for a lot of duplicate entries when you add a package, right? Add once to your .merlin, once to your _oasis (or whatever) and once to your .ocamlinit
<companion_cube> yeah, agreed
<shon> Seems that's laborious enough someone must have a more elegant approach by now?
<companion_cube> this is annoying, but I don't know of a really better approach yet
<shon> Or is that the state of the art?
<companion_cube> the clean solution would be for oasis to generate a .merlin, for a start
<companion_cube> I just don't have the motivation to do it myself
<companion_cube> (same for .ocamlinit, in theory oasis has every information needed)
<shon> Well, cool. I like a language with low-hanging tooling fruit :) (Not that I'm tall enough to reach even the low fruit yet!)
<shon> Yeah, that sounds right.
<companion_cube> :D
<companion_cube> well if you feel like contributing this to oasis, it would be very nice
<companion_cube> there's a gitter channel if you want to ask @gildor questions
<companion_cube> anyway, my bed awaits
<shon> Sounds like a fun project, only I wonder if it's over my head?
<shon> Good night!
<companion_cube> write a bit of OCaml first :p
<companion_cube> (something simple that you can write from scratch)
<orbifx> companion_cube: thanks, couldn't use it anyway, because it was in lwt, so I had to not return a function but a value (Even though functions are values.. blah blah)
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<orbifx> but first time I've come to think about partially applied exception blocks in functional terms, that is ccool :)