adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | Current MOOC: https://huit.re/ocamlmooc | OCaml 4.04.0 release notes: http://ocaml.org/releases/4.04.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<hannes> I cannot find documentation on this: so, the num/big_int module does arbitrary precision arithmetics. it also has to/of_string conversions -- what is the limit for reading a big num from a file (-> I suspect there is a maximum size for a string in the OCaml runtime!?)
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<Drup> hannes: Sys.max_string_length
<Drup> (not sure how num actually works on that point, though. nor zarith)
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<chetshah> Hello all, Ocaml beginner here. Had a question on let expression.
<chetshah> e.g. let x x x = x + x in x 2 3;;
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<chetshah> here defining id "x" does alpha conversion happen for every following x in definition?
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<chetshah> Shouldn't there be a pattern match error happening ?
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<dmbaturin> chetshah: The second x argument will shadow the first one.
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<dmbaturin> In effect it will be fun x -> 2 * x
<chetshah> ok. so for the scope of fun, the function name x does not make any sense, it is the argument.
<chetshah> I mean parameter.
<dmbaturin> Yes, in the let syntax shortcut for functions, binding names and parameter names are given somewhat special separate treatment.
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<flux> actually doing pattern matching that binds the same variable multiple times is not supported, ie. match 5,5 with x,x -> will not compile
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<steve_gh> Hi. How would I nest functors? I have functor Foo(X), and I want a second functor Bar(X) = struct type f = Foo(X).t ... end, but that construction gives me an ill-typed functor application error.
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<flux> I think you need to use module LocalFoo = Foo(X) type f = LocalFoo.t
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<freyr> Hi. I'm looking for a web framework well suited for embedded device. All i need is to create simple web interface, i don't need database but i think i need good web socket support. Wich framework should fit my needs? I found eliom and cohttp, but not so many examples and documentation. Especially for cohttp. Which of them is more solid and suited for embedded? Where can i find more documentation for cohttp?
<freyr> Thanx
<freyr> Is there something as well documented as Yesod for ocaml?
<Drup> freyr: define "embedded" please. :)
<Drup> the closest to yesod for ocaml will be eliom
<freyr> Drup: Some kind of monitoring device with PC-compatable x86 board and linux.
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<Drup> ok, something equivalent to an rpi then. then use the one you prefer. It's not a constraint
<freyr> Eliom in opam requires sqlite and ocamlnet, can i build it without those dependencies?
<Drup> cohttp is "just" a web server, eliom is more of a framework
<Drup> sqlite is optionel, but you can't (yet) avoid ocamlnet
<jerith> Is ocamlnet that big networking library with all the C stuff in it?
<Drup> yeah, we actually don't really use that, only the stuff for uri and pcre
<freyr> Is there any way to install eliom from opam without sqlite?
<Drup> freyr: "opam install dbm eliom" should do it
<Drup> (it's either dbm or sqlite)
<freyr> Thanx. Ocamlnet refuses to build with ocaml 4.04. That's a pity.
<jerith> I wrote my own AMQP client library a couple of years ago because the only one I could find used ocamlnet and ocamlnet didn't compile on OSX.
<Drup> ocamlnet builds fine on 4.04. It has issues with flambda, though.
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<freyr> Oh yeah. I use flambda branch.
<freyr> That's even more worse
<jerith> (Also, I really wanted an async library.)
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<steve_gh> If I have a functors Foo(V) and Bar(V) such that Bar(V) = struct module LocalFoo = Foo(V) ... end, how do I expose module LocalFoo so that I can use LocalFoo's constructors. I would like to try and avoid rewriting as functors Foo(V) and Bar(F : Foo_intf)
<steve_gh> In particular, if Foo(V) : Foo_intf with t = V.t = struct type T of t end, then I want to be able to call constructor Bar.F.T
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<shon> Hi steve_gh.
<shon> I'm having my own functor troubles...
<shon> let me see if I can get your example working somehow, so at least I can have a clear sense of the problem.
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<freehck> steve_gh: how about this: Bar(V) = struct module LocalFoo = Foo(V) let constructor = LocalFoo.constructor end ?
<freehck> After you bind LocalFoo with value generated by Foo(V) you can use all bindings inside LocalFoo using LocalFoo.<binding_name>
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<tvynr> I'm trying to get some kind of information out of a generated Menhir parser other than just position information. There's a lot of documentation about how to handle errors in *generating* the parser, but not as much about how to handle errors while *using* the generated parser. Is there a way for me to get any information beyond positional data without using the incremental API?
<tvynr> Do I need to e.g. put an error token handling case in every rule or something?
<companion_cube> that's a possibility, I guess
<tvynr> Seems... inelegant.
<tvynr> I'm putting together a lab for my students and I was hoping that there was a simple way to get e.g. "found '=' but expected '+' or '-'"
<tvynr> Am I fundamentally misunderstanding LR parsing? It seems that should be possible.
<shon> freehck: Works for me!
<companion_cube> I'm really no expert, sorry
<tvynr> np
<tvynr> Thanks anyhow. You're always so helpful. :)
<companion_cube> is it a lab on compilation?
<tvynr> Yep.
<Drup> tvynr: look at the new menhir API
<shon> I wonder if this has helped me solve my own module problem somehow, which was how to make it so you can operate on the underlying type of the parameter module with the constructors of the parameterized module...
<Drup> you can inspect the stack while parsing, which should help a bit. You have to work a bit, though
<Drup> tvynr: there is also the new menhir error message API, there is a paper on that
<tvynr> Drup: Yeah, the incremental API seems like... more effort than I wanted to put forth.
<tvynr> Drup: The new error handling... I think I see a section on that in the manual.
<tvynr> Drup: But it looks like it requires the incremental API.
<freyr> What kind of errors you can have except of wrong grammar? You have to implement error handling in parser, yes. Error handling chapter in menhir manual should help you.
<steve_gh> hi freehck. Doesn't this rely on constructor being a function (defined with let) rather than a constructor (type t = Constructor of ...) ?
<Drup> tvynr: yeah, it does
<tvynr> Drup: Alrighty. I'll probably try the gross, cheap "handle error on every rule" for now and try to move to the .messages format sometime soon. Thanks muchly for pointing me in the right direction! :)
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<companion_cube> !merlin
<shon> steve_gh: You can use constructors this way too.
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<shon> You'll be able to access any values or constructors in the nested module, so long as they aren't sealed by a module signature.
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<shon> Anyone have particular feelings about about ocaml testing tools? The approach of Kaputt looks more appealing to me than that of OUnit, but is there anything essential missing in the former?
<companion_cube> ounit is nice for unit testing
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<companion_cube> kaputt also provides random testing (as do some other libraries)
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<shon> Does kaputt not provide facilities for unit testing? Or were you just suggesting that OUnit's facilities for that are nicer (in your experience)
<shon> ?
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<companion_cube> hum, I am not very familiar with Kaputt
<companion_cube> imho it tries to do too many things
<companion_cube> I'd tend to consider ounit as the "standard" test library
<companion_cube> look at the reverse dependencies on https://opam.ocaml.org/packages/ounit/
<shon> Oh yeah, stark difference: https://opam.ocaml.org/packages/kaputt/
<shon> that alone is a good pragmatic reason to get familiar with OUnit first, and then explore kaputt (or whatever) later.
<shon> I'm already playing with a non-standard build tool, and maybe it's good to play with one weirder thing at a time... thanks!
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<companion_cube> ah, which tool?
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<shon> Speaking of, I think we were talking about how nice would be to have the build tool generate the .merlin and .ocamlinit files last week?
<companion_cube> well, it's a recurrent annoyance to have to repeat the same information in all these files, yeah
<shon> solvuu-build does this quite nicely so far. Though I have a very simple set up so far
<companion_cube> oh, solvuu, I see
<companion_cube> nice!
<shon> There's virtually nothing in my toy project to build, so I can't vouch for how well it handles the main purpose.
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<shon> It's working great so far as a way of setting up the dev environment though.
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<shon> if I get up the ambition to try to help provide a plugin to add this funcitonality to oasis, I'm guessing I could just adapt, or at least study, the solvuu-build approach.
<shon> Though, I must admit, I find the idea of specifying the build in ocaml itself quite appealing. It sort of seems like the natural idea to me. The fact that most build tools seem to *not* approach things this way, leads me to suspect there may be some complexity or difficulty in specifying builds that makes this a tough choice....
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<companion_cube> I agree it's nice and all
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<shon> But OCaml is only my second serious foray into languages requiring build specifications, so I hae lots to learn on this front.
<companion_cube> if there was only ocamlbuild vs solvuu, the latter might win
<companion_cube> but right now people are used to their local optima
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<shon> I think solvuu build sits on top of ocamlbuild.
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<steve_gh> Hi shon and freehck. Thanks for your advice. Clearly I'm having a bad day, because I'm not getting it. Here is a dummy case : http://www.heypasteit.com/clip/0C4MA. Final line is what I want to be able to do...
<companion_cube> yes, I meant compared to waht vanilla ocamlbuild does
<companion_cube> with _tags + myocamlbuild
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<shon> I see! So solvuu build essentially provides abstractions for doing stuff you can also do with ocamlbuild alone? Makes sense. I suppose that's what I'd assumed.
<shon> Yeah, I don't mean to advocate for one over the other. I'm just enjoying this wealth of tooling! ;) (Coming from SML)
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<shon> steve_gh: Learning the nuances of the ML module system can have a steep learning curve, in my expereince. I've had lots of bad days alonge the way, and I am still relatively fresh. Though I think it realy pays off.
<shon> I'll have a look now!
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<Drup> steve_gh: if you want to re-export the type constructors, they need to be in the signature. Exposing the type equality is not sufficient
<shon> steve_gh: To elaboet on Drup, you need to add module LocalFoo : Foo_intf
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<Drup> ah, and that too
<shon> To your Bar_intf signature.
<shon> If you apply a signature to a module, then everything not specified by the signature gets hidden.
<shon> Including any submodules.
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<shon> yes, thanks drup!
<shon> I've just been rying to develop a proper understading of when and how to use the `... with type ...` specification.
<Drup> shon: you are used to SML, right ?
<steve_gh> shon and Drup. Now I understand :-)
<shon> Yep. It took me a while to get used to it in that context too.
<shon> I finally did get a hange of it, but then this weekend for some reason it wasn't taking in my ocaml code.
<Drup> shon: everytime you would like to use "sharing type ..." in a signature, don't and add a with type ... to the functor instead
<shon> I think I might have been making things more difficult by, perhaps, forgetting to rebuild my projects...
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<shon> Drup: I was workign with SML/NJ pretty exclusively, which supports the "... where type ..." idiom, which I think is essentially identical to "... with type ...".
<Drup> ah, possibly
<shon> It's likely that I jsut haven't fully internalized all the nuances of modular parametricity: it is a very deep subject matter.
<Drup> yeah, it's quite subtle and the various module systems are not exactly equivalent as they seem
<Drup> +as
<shon> True! I'm anticipating some interesting insights as I get more familiar with the distinct differences of OCamls modules.
<shon> I think ocaml has, we say, "generative" modules vs. sml's "applicative"?
<Drup> ocaml has both, but applicative by default
<shon> Or, maybe I should s/modules/functors
<Drup> sml has generative by default
<shon> Ah, I have it reversed.
<shon> So in OCaml we can equivalence between modules created by different functor applications, right?
<Drup> yes, M = N => F(M).t = F(N).t
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<shon> Oh, nice.
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<shon> Just reading up on it. Very good. I'm partway thorugh a slow-mo study of Reynold's insights into parametricity. I'm hoping exposure to the subtle differences between OCaml and SML will help deepen my understanding.
<shon> Thanks for helping correct and clarify my general understanding.
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<Drup> if you want the formal stuff, Xavier Leroy's 94 95 POPL papers contains most of the stuff
<Drup> (caml light is actually a pretty direct implementation of those papers)
<mmm_> i need a job
<companion_cube> wait, there are proper modules in caml light?
<mmm_> if any need remote work worked,
<Drup> companion_cube: hum, "caml special light"
<Drup> it's the thing that was between caml light and OCaml 1.0, I guess ?
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<shon> Thanks for the lead, Drup. I'll follow it.
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<companion_cube> ouch
<Drup> oh, there is also a JFP paper (still by XL) about generativity/applicativity
<companion_cube> mmm_: sorry, not in a position to hire :p
<Armael> :DD
<mmm_> post*
<mmm_> companion_cube: sorry for my posr too.
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<reynir> Ah, isomorphis.me is yours?
<reynir> Very nice domain name :v
<Armael> ?!
<Armael> ah, yes :D
<companion_cube> Armael: you are famous because of the pastebin :p
<Armael> the one ocabot points to?
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<companion_cube> yep
<companion_cube> !search paste
<ocabot_> paste -> https://paste.isomorphis.me/
<Armael> uhu
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<companion_cube> so, ocabot_ now has a feature to query the last few lines of the chan
<companion_cube> !help history
<ocabot_> history: give back <n> lines of history in query (max 100) (prio 10)
<companion_cube> for those people who don't have a screen :)
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<Armael> I assume it gives them in a query?
<companion_cube> yes
<companion_cube> :D
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<KV> Is it possible to get the file descriptor in C from an in_channel somehow thru the FFI? Im looking at the source but that have access to the channel struct which is not exposed thru the FFI header files.
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<hcarty> KV: Maybe by going through the Unix module
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<KV> hcarty, yes you're right. I just found out by hacking my way into the channel-stuff that it is to abstract to handle from C. File descriptors seems way more sane. Thanks
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mfp_ is now known as mfp
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<orbifx> hello all
<companion_cube> o/
<companion_cube> don't want to know
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<orbifx> :P
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