<illo>
guys am I correct in interpreting the semantics of the pilog clause "bool" NOT as is written in the documentation (the given truth value is unified with the truth value of the referenced +Bool relation) but as "unify true with objects whose given relation is true, and false with all objects"
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<Regenaxer>
Hi illo, I would say the ref states it correctly
<Regenaxer>
It is not about object"s", but about a single value
<illo>
hmm
<Regenaxer>
The point is the 'get' algorithm, as with all those DB predicates
<Regenaxer>
(bool @New @Obj foo bar mumble new)
<Regenaxer>
this means (; Obj foo bar mumble new) gives non-NIL
<Regenaxer>
ie (get Obj 'foo 'bar 'mumble 'new)
<Regenaxer>
oops, no
<Regenaxer>
no, correct :)
<Regenaxer>
I thought I had (bool @New @Obj ... wrong
<illo>
heheh wait though, please bear with me, let's look at the definition of the bool clause: (be bool (@F . @L) (^ @ (or (not (-> @F)) (bool (apply get (-> @L)))))
<Regenaxer>
ok
<illo>
it is saying either @F is false, or the truth value of the relation is true
<Regenaxer>
yes
mtsd has joined #picolisp
<illo>
so if I use this clause as a filter clause in select
<Regenaxer>
All these DB relations accept "no value"
<illo>
ok so the problem here is that false === no value (NIL)?
<illo>
let's not call it "problem" but interpretation
<Regenaxer>
yes, a general "problem" in prolog
<illo>
when I need to filter in false values in a select filter
<Regenaxer>
You can't prove false
<illo>
but I can prove that a +Bool relation holds false
orivej has joined #picolisp
<illo>
let's say I write this:
<Regenaxer>
with not/1
<Regenaxer>
and (or (()) ..
<illo>
oh ok I see
<Regenaxer>
Not sure at the moment though :)
<illo>
I actually wrote this (be strictBool (@F . @L) (^ @ (= (bool (-> @F)) (bool (apply get (-> @L)))))
<Regenaxer>
Yes, going back to Lisp is also a way
<illo>
but not as "pure" I suppose
<illo>
thank you
<Regenaxer>
I think it is fine
<Regenaxer>
The rules of the existing predicates are this way because in search dialogs No Value always means "not relevant"
<illo>
yep, I guessed so
<illo>
but alas I need three values
<Regenaxer>
bool is typically related to a checkbox
<illo>
(any / true / false)
<Regenaxer>
So 2 checkboxes
<illo>
of course I can choose to use a different class from +Bool
<illo>
than
<Regenaxer>
yes, I use +Any then
<Regenaxer>
eg 'sex' in Salutations
<Regenaxer>
and the third value is zero
<Regenaxer>
ie NIL, 0 or T
<Regenaxer>
see app/er.l
<illo>
yep
<illo>
thanks
<Regenaxer>
:)
illo has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
mtsd has quit [Quit: leaving]
CORDIC has joined #picolisp
DKordic has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
razzy has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
razzy has joined #picolisp
razzy` has joined #picolisp
razzy has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
freemint has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
ubLIX has joined #picolisp
freemint has joined #picolisp
illo has joined #picolisp
jibanes has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
jibanes has joined #picolisp
ubLIX has quit [Quit: ubLIX]
illo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
illo has joined #picolisp
illo has quit [Client Quit]
razzy` has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<beneroth>
hi all
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, are you planning to close the wiki already?
<CORDIC>
Hi beneroth.
<Regenaxer>
Hi beneroth, CORDIC
<Regenaxer>
Why should I close?
<beneroth>
Hi CORDIC
<Regenaxer>
Doen't it work?
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, new EU copyright law. Platforms which publish uploaded content to the public will soon be required to seek out licensing deals with copyright holders (in theory: publishing companies, in practice: every human?) and ensure blocking of non-licensed uploaded content.
<beneroth>
ok, maybe picolisp wiki falls under "not-for-profit" exemptions, but one could argue it is a merely a website to market your IT services :P
<Regenaxer>
I see, yeah, it is a catastrophe
<Regenaxer>
I will filter any uploads from now on
<Regenaxer>
using a coffee filter
<beneroth>
also today, EU parliament approved the "let's stop with daylight saving time", though with the insane "every country may decide itself if it wants to stay with normal time or summer time"
<beneroth>
:D
<beneroth>
extra fine-granular
freemint has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<Regenaxer>
T
<Regenaxer>
It is all very depressing
* beneroth
laughs from Switzerland until our new copyright law (currently in legislation) gets passed
<beneroth>
it's so dumb
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<beneroth>
Europe cementing its IT-dependency on US and others
<Regenaxer>
The whole worldwide situation is depressing
<Regenaxer>
I was an optimist all my life
<Regenaxer>
*was*
<beneroth>
but yeah, France gets its copyright, Germany gets its Nordstream 2 pipeline, and UK gets a chance to build some actual economy up by getting into IT :P
<Regenaxer>
We are driving the planet against the wall
<beneroth>
the planet, our civilisation....
<Regenaxer>
right
<beneroth>
on heise was just an article that 2018 was record year in burning of coal. not in Europe, but still.
<beneroth>
2030 and 2050 targets.. I see no chance. We should plan for the building of nice geodaesic domes over our cities, Sci-Fi!
<Regenaxer>
The problem is not the environment. It is just the trigger. It will trigger wars and throw us back into middle ages
<beneroth>
and plan to abandon all pretending of human rights and human value.
<beneroth>
aye
<beneroth>
and I'm with the people who doubt about the possibility of a second industrial age after such a crisis, as we used all easy accessible oil fields up (good access to metals in the rubble,, but yeah)
<Regenaxer>
I doubt too, at least for a long time
<beneroth>
hey in hindsight you Regenaxer might have lived in the time of the best living standards of humanity :)
<beneroth>
(though some classes of humans of the hunter & gatherer age were probably happier)
<Regenaxer>
Yes, after 2nd world war and before the next middle ages
<Regenaxer>
Not sure how to measure happiness
<beneroth>
green revolution, medical improvements
<beneroth>
hehe
<Regenaxer>
ignorance may result in happiness
<beneroth>
hm..maybe, but then what is ignorance other than just hacking your own reward-function
<Regenaxer>
T!!
<beneroth>
like monks being happy and ignorant on purpose to the world and their own bodies, until they hacked themselves so far that they are completely happy to be eaten by bugs alive, not caring about anything.
<beneroth>
I don't find this a meaningful goal, though it's surely a happy one :)
<Regenaxer>
Because they have deeper insights
<beneroth>
because they trained their brain to kick out the satisfaction chemicals without outer triggers... yeah...
<Regenaxer>
I think it is more
<beneroth>
you read Dune novels?
<Regenaxer>
Dune planet? no
<beneroth>
yeah
<beneroth>
ok
<beneroth>
hm..currently I'm following a very materialistic view, meaning currently I don't believe there is anything which is not part of (not yet fully understand) physics.
<Regenaxer>
Thats ok
<beneroth>
currently I'm believing that human nervous system is nothing essentially more than a computing (information processing) device telling itself stories.
<Regenaxer>
though the physical world is also only a product of the mind
<beneroth>
uh we drop into that discussion again.. while I agree in essence, I disagree in principle, as the generation of that mind-view follows physics.
<beneroth>
what is beyond? I believe there IS something beyond, which causes our minds to interpret something the way it does (I harshly reject the opinion that there IS nothing)
<Regenaxer>
Logic and words cannot express it
<beneroth>
but I also believe that only that part of the beyond is meaningful which can (in principle, with as many indirect steps as it takes) be "experienced".
<Regenaxer>
Probably
<Regenaxer>
at least we see there are borders or limits
<Regenaxer>
It is the mind, the logic which is limited
<Regenaxer>
We cant think beyond our mind and logic
<beneroth>
so to circle back to Dune.. the fundament for the Dune stories is that in Dune universe, humanity completely rejected and destroyed machine computers - because humans became practical slaves to the computers, and this was seen as a fault. as a consequence, multiple human "schools" of though (more like de-facto cults) formed, who train their member to superhuman features to achieve the feats for which computers were used before.
<Regenaxer>
Like an insect cannot grasp lamba calculus
<Regenaxer>
OK
<Regenaxer>
But humans are also computers! /D
<beneroth>
<Regenaxer> Like an insect cannot grasp lamba calculus - yeah, so for an insect, lamba calculus is completely meaningless, even the existence of lambda calculus is completely meaningless for the range of reality tunnels the insect can observe/enter
<Regenaxer>
T
<Regenaxer>
The conceps dont even exist
<beneroth>
probably. Though for humans there exist concepts of the beyond which are practically meaningless, I would say.
<beneroth>
Dune: yeah, so they have "mentats", thats humans trained to superhuman memory and information processing capacity. Then they have (I just forgot the name) a group/cult/sub-race focused on genetic designing. then they have the navigators guild - human mutants (mutated until they're more like fish-brains living in tanks) who can steer the space-ships. and the Bene Gesserit, a female-only (though they have male soldiers and associates) which tries to breed a
<beneroth>
super-human by secretly arranging marriages/off-spring following long-term (hundreds of years) plans.
<Regenaxer>
Interesting
<Regenaxer>
I'll read
<beneroth>
All this groups, with all their different approaches, are vitally dependent on "the spice", this single super-drug which comes from the planet "Dune" - so control over Dune and the spice is the achilles heel of the whole society spanning multiple star systems
<beneroth>
thematically I find the Dune series is kinda a attempt to explore human sociology/society and how it can be steered/controlled, be it by religion, be it by economic or political games, etc. has quite some philosophy in it.
<beneroth>
the Bene Gesserits core belief is essentially that the objective of the human species (no alien species in Dune universe afaik, though humans come in many mutated forms), practically the function of the human species (or intelligent live) in the universe is to allow the universe to look on itself. and to bring order.
<beneroth>
which I find a quite fascinating though.
ubLIX has joined #picolisp
<beneroth>
because in essence, live equals order, order gained by fighting of the laws of thermodynamics (chaos is increasing) at all cost with all kinds of ways (always in essence, by packing chaos and outputting it)
<Regenaxer>
T, decreasing entropy
<Regenaxer>
(locally)
<beneroth>
yeah, though it cannot be decreased, as we cannot destroy energy
<beneroth>
aye
<beneroth>
locally :)
<beneroth>
I would recommend Dune, though I see it not as important (rich in ideas/concepts) as Asimovs writing.
<Regenaxer>
I'll look at them
<beneroth>
the first book (just Dune) is about Paul Atreides, which is the son/heir of the house atrides. The universe is governed by an Emperor, though that Emperor is mostly bound to the council of multiple powerful nobility houses. The emperor tries always to inflict conflict between these houses to secure his control.
<beneroth>
Now the Atreides get stewardship/control of the planet Dune handed over by the Emperor, while before their arch-enemy house controlled it. Atreides are good people in essence, but yeah...
<Regenaxer>
I just registered the book. Available 01apr
<Regenaxer>
onleihe.de :)
<beneroth>
oh
<beneroth>
I would also recommend the second (messiah of dune, or so), third (children of dune) and and fourth (God emperor of dune)
<beneroth>
afterwards.. still okish, but not so revolutionary anymore I think...
<Regenaxer>
More are available at buch7.de, I usually buy there
<Regenaxer>
ok, I see
<beneroth>
I still mostly buy my books as dead tree editions :)
<Regenaxer>
:)
<Regenaxer>
I love to read ebooks on the tablet
<Regenaxer>
or outside on Kobo
<beneroth>
as Dune is a desert planet, their natives, the fremen, is a desert folk with quite their own customs and culture. their modelled a bit after the arabs, but yeah,.
<Regenaxer>
(my little old Kobo with Debian + FBReader)
<beneroth>
T, I like my Kobo.
<beneroth>
oh I have original Kobo OS on it, but I disabled WLAN and entered an empty account in the local SQLiTE Db to circumvent online account registration :)
<beneroth>
Paul is trained both as a mentat and as a Bene Gesserit by his mother (a rough Bene Gesserit)
<beneroth>
the Bene Gesserit can do fore-telling, and Paul is also developing that ability. but its more a curse than a help in many things :)
<Regenaxer>
Using spice?
<beneroth>
aye
<beneroth>
The Bene Gesserit do nice schemes like spreading/founding religions, like inserting their (manufactured) "prophecies" in local cultures, so if (centuries later) one of their member is in help, she (usually a she) can just invoke the secret prophesied words/actions to get loyal help from local people.
<beneroth>
s/is in help/is in need of help
<Regenaxer>
Don't tell too much in advance ;)
<beneroth>
T ;)
rob_w has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<beneroth>
ah yes one more... Bene Gesserit can access/inherit the memories of their ancestors...
<Regenaxer>
aka backups? ;)
<beneroth>
a nice feat, but can also be a burden of great risk, e.g. when such a "memory persona" overtakes the real personality
<beneroth>
not like backups, not meant for restore.
<beneroth>
more like for handing over and keeping knowledge
<Regenaxer>
Secondary DB
<beneroth>
and accessing wisdom.. but some ancestors were also insane or monsters, so you can see it can lead to psychological issues :)
<beneroth>
for backup and telepathy you should read "A second chance at Eden".
<beneroth>
or "A second chance for Eden"
<beneroth>
british space opera sci-fi
<beneroth>
the main series is like 4 or 5 books, this one is an additional one later, telling short stories set in that universe. but one essential concept is best explained in that short story which is included in that book :)
<beneroth>
the main series is probably not your taste, I would guess
<Regenaxer>
hmm
<beneroth>
(nothing to do with Dune, and not as old)
<Regenaxer>
Usually I don't like too old sci-fi
<Regenaxer>
I dont like Heinlein
<beneroth>
what do you consider old sci-fi?
<beneroth>
ok
<Regenaxer>
probably Asimov too
<Regenaxer>
But I like Lem a *lot*
<Regenaxer>
and Herbert W. Franke
<beneroth>
I haven't read Heinlein yet, I just got one book, but I'm still busy with the third part of the 3body (3 Sonnen), the chinese international beststeller :)
<beneroth>
well Dune is Frank Herbert xD
<beneroth>
Dune is old, and you can see it in the style.
<beneroth>
but its good
<Regenaxer>
Yes, but Herbert W. Franke is somebody else
<beneroth>
Asimov aged very well I find.
<Regenaxer>
I know you are fond of Asimov
<Regenaxer>
I dont know well enough
<beneroth>
only anachronistic thing in his books is the prime focus on miniature nuclear reactors, I find.
<beneroth>
just a detail
<Regenaxer>
Herbert W. Franke is a german author and Physicist
<Regenaxer>
Andreas Eschbach is currently my most favourite!
<Regenaxer>
Haarteppichknüpfer
<beneroth>
I heard of him, too
<beneroth>
ah
<beneroth>
right! right!
<beneroth>
I heard from you about him :)
<Regenaxer>
ah, Franke is Austrian, not German! :)
<beneroth>
Herbert W. Franke sounds like a author I would like, from the wikipedia desc. I have to check out.
<beneroth>
german-like culture ;-)
<Regenaxer>
He seems still alive. Good
<Regenaxer>
:)
<beneroth>
yeah the good ones are all leaving currently :)
<Regenaxer>
Close to Bavarian
<Regenaxer>
T
<beneroth>
yeah, Bavaria, root of the Illuminati ;-)
<Regenaxer>
haha
<beneroth>
though they only got famous internationally after Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Sheas Book :)
<Regenaxer>
root of Weissbier
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
I prefer darker beers, actually ;)
<Regenaxer>
true, me too
<beneroth>
I cannot tell if you will like the Dune series
<Regenaxer>
It sounds like I like them
<beneroth>
but all the novels are pretty different, I find. both in style and story, though some themes are underlying them all (how to control society, kinda)
<beneroth>
the first two are pretty alike
<beneroth>
the one about the "God Emperor of Dune" I found noticable. the main point (without spoilering too much, I believe) is "noting that most hierarchical structures are remnants of evolutionary urges toward safety."
<beneroth>
the God Emperor is then a guy building such a safe and controlling dictatorship to damage this urge :)
<Regenaxer>
I see
<Regenaxer>
God Emperor is a kind of contradiction perhaps
<beneroth>
no, it's meant pretty literally here :)
<Regenaxer>
Not only "evolutionary urges toward safety", but also efficiency
<Regenaxer>
ok
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
though I would argue that efficiency is most times a force opposing/destroying safety
<beneroth>
"disruptive" etc.
<Regenaxer>
Perhaps our western concept of individualism is the wrong way in terms of evolution
<beneroth>
the guy achieved a life-time of like 3'500 years or so ;-)
<Regenaxer>
ok, but the emperor in Eschbach's books ruled hundred thousands of years ;)
<Regenaxer>
Haarteppichknüpfer and Quest
<Regenaxer>
I read both books twice
<beneroth>
I suspect it is, though it has some of the right puzzle parts. Also, arguably western individualism is not that old, is it? I mean before the enlightenment revolutions the Europeans were primarily god-serving followers?
<Regenaxer>
right
<beneroth>
ok, it just moved up in my reading next list :)
<beneroth>
I also think the Asian (especially Chinese) concept of "the greater good/welfare of society trumps individual freedoms and suffering" is not the correct answer
<Regenaxer>
In my feeling neither
<beneroth>
we need to find the next step. it probably contains/combines both western and eastern concepts, but has some other ingredients too.
<Regenaxer>
But if people are used to it, they feel comfortable
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
most Chinese people apparently have not much objection to surveillance and tight control. well except the muslim minorities in west china who get currently eradicated.
<Regenaxer>
T
<beneroth>
I found quite fascinating the reports that apparently in a few massive multiplayer online games are under (player) control of a big Chinese main player clan.
<beneroth>
so their culture/politics is also executed in game environments (without external force, well of course with pressuring inside the game with the tools of the game world, but yeah)
<Regenaxer>
it is a different mentality indeed
<beneroth>
I played such games. Western clans usually were not stable after a certain size. the best ones could maybe have 2-3 years control a full area in such a game world. but then they usually split apart internally at one point.
<beneroth>
also democratic clans usually didn't work out, because decision making took too long or required decisions were not made (or not without groups splitting of)
<beneroth>
the most stable clans were usually those controlled by a tight group of friends. and most clans were controlled by 1-2 leaders.
<beneroth>
I like game worlds as a sandbox for social structures :)
<Regenaxer>
:)
<Regenaxer>
Perfect
<beneroth>
people cannot be enforced usually, not by salary as in commercial companies, and only very limited by (in-game) "violence".
<beneroth>
so people gather where it is comfortable, and/or fitting their (moral/style/whatever) values. influenced by social pressure / social networks (friends usually go with friends..)
<Regenaxer>
But they must invest their time
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
I have no experience with such worlds (unfortunately)
<beneroth>
and sometimes, when a big political alliance or clan lost ingame, people left altogether
<beneroth>
I kinda just got lucky with the golden age of MMOs, it's kinda already over now.
<beneroth>
Massive Multiplayer (thousands in the same consistent virtual world) vs. "normal" multiplayer (like 5, 10, 32, 64, 120 players in one match, but not a consistent world going for years)