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<olaf_h>
post to mailing list bounced twice: host: smtpin.rzone.de (81.169.145.97) reason: 550 5.7.1 Refused by local policy. No SPAM please!
<olaf_h>
issue on my side? sent from gmx.net. Should I change emailaddress?
<olaf_h>
topic was: pil21 app.html missing
<Regenaxer>
Hi olaf_h! Strange! Do you know the time?
<Regenaxer>
hmm, I have no error in the log anyway
<Regenaxer>
No idea what smtpin.rzone.de is. The server of the list is at strato.de
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<olaf_h>
Hi Regenaxer, bounced twice (i resent it again): 21.4.2021 19:09 (summer time i think) and 22.04.2021 19:36 (yes, summer time)
<Regenaxer>
Does "Refused by local policy. No SPAM please!" mean it detected that the mail was sent to many recipients?
<olaf_h>
but there were no additional addresses in the mail - but nevertheless, it's a strato topic, there is a link to a strato
<olaf_h>
which leads to nowhere .... like the links to app.html in pil21 document index ... :-) .... nice similarities
<olaf_h>
So don't mind the missing mail, if problem exists longer i will change email and register new in mailing list
<olaf_h>
content of post was the missing app.html in the pil21 distribution.
<Regenaxer>
The mail never reached picolisp.com
<Regenaxer>
I would see in the log if it were rejected
<Regenaxer>
So it was filtered before that, possibly by strato
<Regenaxer>
I hate email
<olaf_h>
yes, i'm sorry, the bounce mail first listed the picolisp address, so i thought it was your server, the strato hint appeared 2 lines below ..... i was not reading that far ...
<olaf_h>
yes, me too, but what would you promote instead? mailing list topics on twitter?
<Regenaxer>
In fact I would prefer a Matrix group, but Matrix is not accepted widely enough
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<olaf_h>
are there technical con's, concerning matrix? or just too few people using it?
<olaf_h>
beneroth mentioned clacke to be a matrix supporter, i guess
<Regenaxer>
Just too few
<Regenaxer>
yes, I'm connected to him and to tankf33der already
<olaf_h>
i did not look into it deeply, but one had to decice which server to register the nick?
<Regenaxer>
I have also accounts at matrix.org and tchncs.de
<Regenaxer>
I would not recommend matrix.org, too crowded, and again centralized
<Regenaxer>
I use also Mastodon on tchncs.de
<olaf_h>
i dont know much about the fediverse so far, just heard friends mentioned it. Matrix list looks like some guys are driving their own servers
<Regenaxer>
Yes
<Regenaxer>
I have my own server too
<Regenaxer>
You can get me as @abu:7fach.de
<olaf_h>
sure ... i thought so!
<Regenaxer>
Not a picolisp server though :)
<Regenaxer>
Matrix-synapse on Debian
<olaf_h>
i see, okay, i have to inform myself about that stuff
<Regenaxer>
good! matrix.org is a good intro
<clacke>
Regenaxer: You're on fedi! Do join the group picolisp@gup.pe! Just follow the account. It reposts anything posted to it just like an email list.
<Regenaxer>
Cool, you mean it follows this channel here?
<clacke>
no
<Regenaxer>
ah
<clacke>
if you follow @picolisp@gup.pe then any time someone mentions @picolisp@gup.pe on fedi you will receive it in your timeline
<clacke>
you are not regenaxer@tchncs.de =)
<clacke>
(on fedi)
<Regenaxer>
Not? ;)
<Regenaxer>
I'm @Regenaxer@social.tchncs.de
<Regenaxer>
In which context to follow picolisp@gup.pe? I don't quite get it
<Regenaxer>
or join the group
<Regenaxer>
In Mastodon?
<Regenaxer>
So gup.de is a kind of bot?
<clacke>
ah, social.
<clacke>
yes, follow on mastodon
<clacke>
like subscribing to a mailing list
<Regenaxer>
ok
<Regenaxer>
The two of us are already following each other on Mastodon
<clacke>
yes, a reposting bot
<Regenaxer>
"any time someone mentions @picolisp@gup.pe on fedi" ok, but who would ever mention "@picolisp@gup.pez"
<clacke>
you, if you want to announce something
<clacke>
but ok, the group has two.followers
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<Regenaxer>
:)
<clacke>
but I don't know who the other person is
<beneroth>
heya
<Regenaxer>
It would really be nice if we could replace email in the future
<Regenaxer>
hi beneroth!
<clacke>
so you will reach that person in addition to me =)
<beneroth>
replace email? with what?
<Regenaxer>
Matrix?
<clacke>
just about anything as far as I'm concerned
<Regenaxer>
Olaf had problems posting
<beneroth>
email is simpler, therefore it will prevail
<clacke>
but the context here is Fediverse
<beneroth>
email was fediverse
<beneroth>
spammers ruined it
<Regenaxer>
right
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, I've listened to the history of smalltalk podcast of Eric. really a good episode. Makes me think that Alain Kay would love picolisp (I guess he doesn't know about it)
<beneroth>
sounds all like picolisp to me, or really close. Focus on Fexpr.
<Regenaxer>
yes, indeed
<clacke>
"Baldur Regenaxer", very Nordic =)
<Regenaxer>
flaws of Lisp are the "special" forms he said
<Regenaxer>
best all make fexprs :)
<Regenaxer>
clacke, it is an anagram
<clacke>
the greatest improvement in AP over SMTP is that you can assume that the person has the parent 'ost readily available
<clacke>
no more incentive to.quote 15 pages
<beneroth>
is that not already covered in email headers?
<beneroth>
the problem is the email clients
<beneroth>
I think there is a thread header or something like it
<beneroth>
not entirely sure
<clacke>
the problem is of technical origin but in.the end social/cultural
<clacke>
fedi having a different history hasn't acquired it
<beneroth>
I tend to believe the cause is always social, that believe grows stronger and stronger in me
<clacke>
as clients have a more similar interface to each other, with similar assumptions
<beneroth>
technology is automation of manual processes
<beneroth>
if the manual process is flawed, technology cannot fix it
<clacke>
in smtp the cultural assumption is that clients are garbage at providing context
<beneroth>
smtp how it is de-facto used, or smtp how it is defined in the RFC?
<beneroth>
you cannot solve the problem by having a better technical standard, if observing the standard is the practical problem anyway
<beneroth>
granted, you can shift the problem around, just by the very nature of moving to another system. but fix it in a way that it cannot occur anymore?
<beneroth>
isn't the problem that people don't want a fediverse (not many enough people to force the network operators and other systems to play nice with it)
<clacke>
smtp culture
<beneroth>
< memories_> The headers are Message-Id, In-Reply-To and References afaik.
<clacke>
ap starting from scratch has different cultural assumptions
<beneroth>
yeah, which might be true for the group using it now
<clacke>
If you use DeltaChat on SMTP you are creating new cultural assumptions
<beneroth>
like we are happy here with IRC
<clacke>
that basically fixes SMTP
<clacke>
for certain use cases
<beneroth>
I grant we can fix smtp. we can fix anything. in a small social group.
<clacke>
e2ee, group management in the clients, quick feedback
<beneroth>
the assumption that they would gain that knowledge automatically, like the niche nerds from the 80s and 90s was just bullshit
<beneroth>
yeah
<clacke>
yes
<beneroth>
<clacke> efficiency kills resilience
<beneroth>
good one
<beneroth>
same as just-in-time logistics all over the world, just failed since last year because of pandemic and also the Suez blockage.
<beneroth>
with tremendous effects still
<clacke>
I think that guy with the Black Swan book said it the loudest first
<beneroth>
and continueing
<clacke>
in his Antifragility book
<beneroth>
yeah I know which one
<clacke>
he's dead wrong about some things and a dick about others, but sometimes spot on and this one is spot on
<beneroth>
well that is true about all people, no? :D
<clacke>
ratios vary =)
<beneroth>
there are no pure heros. and also no pure devils
<beneroth>
oh yes, they vary extremely
<clacke>
and many are just lukewarm wrong/right about everything
<clacke>
most
<clacke>
since you're on fedi and you like computing simplicity my tip is to check out people on merveilles.town
<clacke>
neauoire is the admin and lives with his wife (also on fedi) on a boat
<clacke>
does retro computing stuff, physical and virtual
<clacke>
many people there look at where we went wrong to end up in Unix+Windows world, and look at alternate timelines like what if we had Oberon + 30 years today instead of Windows 3.0 + 30 years
<clacke>
people learn forth and scheme or lisp and sometimes even picolisp =)
<aw->
lisp and forth, sounds great
<aw->
clacke: merveilles.town is invite only..
<beneroth>
hi aw- :)
<aw->
hi beneroth
<aw->
what is this? twitter?
<aw->
i enjoyed twitter in the very early days, but that was when only me and my closest ffriends were using now. I quickly lost interest when it became public and annoying.. i don't see how Mastodon solves that
<beneroth>
but Mastodon allows to have online fights about what counts as child pr0n and what not. apparently japanese community vs. rest like to have such fights on mastodon.
<beneroth>
so the federation gets split brain, partitioned instead of a single company (twitter) making the rules
<beneroth>
I don't see the meaning :D
<beneroth>
federation would mean for me: usenet. running your own mail server. running your own irc server.
<beneroth>
is freenode fediverse? why not?
<beneroth>
Internet is federated. most of the web is... dunno.
<beneroth>
aw-, what do you think about my notion that the issues are primarily social, not technical ?
<clacke>
aw-: doesn't matter if merveilles.town is invite only, you can follow and reply from social.techncs.de (regenaxer) libranet.de (me) or wherever
<clacke>
one should absolutely run one's own fedi server
<beneroth>
if "fedi" you only mean "mastodon", right?
<clacke>
I'll be setting up a Zap server any year now
<clacke>
mastodon is one implementation
<beneroth>
what is different to usenet?
<beneroth>
in the concept, I mean
<clacke>
it's more similar to email than usenet
<clacke>
but more similar to twitter than email
<clacke>
basically fedi is a bunch of RSS feeds (but not RSS) and people follow each other in a model like that
<clacke>
and.then it adds private messages to that
<beneroth>
and that is better than a self-hosted forum because?
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<clacke>
because forums universally suck
<clacke>
discourse is a bit better
<clacke>
but you still need to register a user on every discourse you participate
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<clacke>
fedi is not about a specific topic, it's about your personal interests and persuasions and where they intersect with those of others
<clacke>
I've had immense value from it in.the last 13 years, it's my other life
<clacke>
it's like a global cocktail party and you pop on where you hear something interesting
<clacke>
but it's slower, longer-form and less ephemeral than IRC
<clacke>
I have conversation chains from years ago I sometimes jump back into
<beneroth>
I see, thanks for sharing your experience
<beneroth>
I never used twitter
<beneroth>
and I don't like cocktail parties
<beneroth>
xD
<clacke>
me neither
<clacke>
so having a really slow one over the internet is much better than the real thing
<clacke>
no need to respond within seconds
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<beneroth>
I cannot see how this would be more value for me (personally, certainly not true for other people) than just IRDC
<beneroth>
*IRC
<clacke>
mostly the asynchronous nature
<clacke>
and the picking of your own crowd rather than being lucky to find a channel as good as #picolisp
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<aw->
sorry i had to slip away for a minute
<aw->
clacke: i dont like "social media" as it's currently defined
<aw->
#picolisp for me is very specific, usually mostly technical and relevant in my everyday life
<aw->
I haven't always had that opinion though, and was very much an early adopted of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, even Foursquare, but something changed on all those platforms as more and more people joined... difficult to explain, perhaps the Signal-to-Noise ratio is too high?
<aw->
early adopter*
<beneroth>
Signal-to-Noise is a good dimension to measure, I find
<beneroth>
people in IRC already went to some filtering process, even more so with #picolisp
<beneroth>
self-selection, primarily
<aw->
yes, that's what i find interesting
<aw->
i dont need to spend a day in here reading to keep up with the picolisp discussion
<aw->
on social media things like twitter/hn, if you dont read for 4 days then you're way out of the loop and super backed up. they become a time sync, addictive, and you spend your time reading mostly useless stuff haha
<beneroth>
yeah, I have that experience just by visiting HN
<aw->
oops, i meant to write 'time sink' ;)
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<cess11>
best part of HN is n-gate.com
<cess11>
i've disliked smtp/email since i first came into contact with it, pervasive spam and spoofing and very low interactivity, also a mess to debug when things don't work
<cess11>
i still use mbasic.facebook.com to post a few short notes on swedish politics per week, but no longer as a lobbying and campaign platform like i did when i was still in politics
<cess11>
i quite like twitter but as a weird kind of RSS feed, i follow a lot of interesting accounts there, from nearly realtime reporting from eastern ukraine and syria to some people and businesses in nigeria, some security folks and so on, it's a pretty nice time sink and i tend to get news before the news have had time to package it with other ads i'd block
<cess11>
tried mastodon and discord but didn't find any communities i enjoyed so i kind of passived out of them
<cess11>
moved from signal to matrix for intrafamily stuff and the few friends that can stomach the process of registering with an ID-provider and setup a client