samth changed the topic of #racket to: Racket v7.7 has been released: https://blog.racket-lang.org/2020/05/racket-v7-7.html -- Racket -- https://racket-lang.org -- https://pkgs.racket-lang.org -- Paste at http://pasterack.org
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<winny> erkin: it's all gold :)
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<erkin> winny: Worth sacrificing a tree? ;-P
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<winny> my ereader kills virtual trees daily :)
<erkin> Haha
<winny> screen is large enough to permit PDF reading
<winny> maybe racket needs a packaging guide
<winny> and recommendations for QA testing upcoming releases, since above discussion suggests it's not entirely clear how to do it
<winny> (QA testing the packaging processes, that is)
<winny> [for what it's worth, it's not possible to use a snapshot tarball for a "live" or "current" package on some distros, such as gentoo, where "live" packages are supposed to be from SCM only]
<samth> winny: the packaging process is pretty heavily QA'ed already, but we're adding something to avoid this problem too :)
<samth> that's a silly rule
<samth> bremner: i think git being different from tarballs is pretty common in complex-to-build software
<samth> certainly it's the case for web browsers, for example
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<winny> samth: i think the issue comes down with as it is, there is no easy way to build git reproducibly with the same checkouts
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<winny> since there isn't a way to pin git revisions to the external artifacts at this time
<samth> winny: but that's not a tarball vs git issue, the problems are the same in both cases
<winny> right, so the issue is more universal than building from git
<samth> and there is, of course, a way to do that, since that's how the release work
<winny> but it's not pinned per se, but pinned based on time of creation alone?
<samth> but anyway, I understand why having that be easier would be nice, I just don't understand bremner's issue with builds
<samth> winny: I'm not sure what you mean by that
<samth> git checkouts serve a quite different audience than tarballs
<winny> i think bremner was expressing how the steps to build from git and tarball differ quite a bit, making it challenging for packagers to correctly package git (so issues like the above don't happen)
<samth> winny: I think the right way to fix that, if you don't want to use snapshots, is to just create the tarballs, which is easy
<winny> it's worth noting *nix packaging was impacted on 7.4, 7.6, 7.7 releases and this comes down to packagers not putting in the effort to build and package from git
<winny> (if packagers did, they would have reported the build issues before release day)
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<winny> for what it's worth, snapshot releases are still releases, with all the upkeep they entail. hence the motivation to use a SCM managed "live" repository for source. but as it is, it appears in order to build a full racket release from git, you need network access when building (instead of fetching all artifacts before build phases). it also means distfiles/git repos needed aren't 100% trackable by the distro
<winny> package manager (if it supports such a thing, such as gentoo ebuild). Please correct me if i'm wrong. the build process is confusing at best, and i've basically given up on doing git builds
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<winny> i could start issueing packages from snapshots, but i see the amount of effort to correctly maintain them getting out of hand pretty quickly (deleting old ones, adding new ones as they appear on the snapshot site, and having to do a full packaging cycle for each snapshot)
<winny> this also implies each user of the repository syncs (whereas a true "live" package is buildable without versioning -- it's just built from SCM repositories [or in our case, perhaps some additional artifacts fetched as a tarball somehow(?)])
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<bremner> samth: I think my main grumble is that it makes it harder to backport upstream commits to previously released versions.
<samth> winny: there are a few things you could do. one is build from the latest snapshot as the "live" package
<samth> another is build the installer from git, which is quite easy
<samth> if you want to avoid network access when building packages, then you can use raco pkg catalog-archive
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<samth> bremner: I can see how that's inconvenient
<samth> bremner: I wonder if there's something we could do to make it easier
<samth> perhaps having the directory structure match?
<bremner> samth: yeah, having the directory structure match would be a big help
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<constptr> Does racket use gcc to compile?
<bremner> constptr: it can. I don't know it it's required. I'd guess not.
<bremner> constptr: ooc, why?
<constptr> I just wanted to know which backend does racket uses to compile
<bremner> it uses liblightning as a jit
<constptr> Ok
<bremner> although with Chez Scheme that's presumably different
<bremner> Racket CS probably uses whatever chez scheme uses
<constptr> Isn't there AOT compiler for racket ?
<bremner> not really
<bremner> although, again, that might change with racket CS.
<constptr> Wouldn't AOT improve speed of execution ?
<constptr> For racket? I mean
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<samth> constptr: it all depends on what you mean by AOT, but Racket CS (mostly) compiles to machine code when you run `raco make`. Racket CS compiles to machine code always, but it will do it on demand if the file isn't already compiled.
<samth> constptr: for a comparison on startup time for Racket BC vs Racket CS, see https://blog.racket-lang.org/2020/02/racket-on-chez-status.html
<constptr> Isn't racket cs experimental?
<bremner> that's why my first answer was no
<samth> constptr: bremner: Racket CS is no longer experimental, although it isn't yet the default
<bremner> right, fair.
<narimiran> since there are some knowledgeable people currently here - does any of you use (neo)vim with racket?
<tlcu> narimiran yes but I am not knowledgable :)
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<narimiran> tlcu: did you manage to make it work with 'slimv'? i.e. what plugins do you use?
<tlcu> I tend to avoid plugins, besides stuff like colorschemes and fzf the only language plugin I got is this https://github.com/sheerun/vim-polyglot
<tlcu> includes Racket support
<tlcu> here's an SO thread about yanking and pasting to the terminal https://stackoverflow.com/questions/41681739/how-can-i-paste-neovim-registers-in-terminal-mode#41684444
<tlcu> emacs has a really good racket mode, might wanna invest in evil for that alone.
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<narimiran> 'slimv' was quite nice when i tried it with common lisp, but with racket i only got some strange hang-ups. i'm guessing i need to do some configuring, and i don't know exactly how....
<bremner> at least on the emacs side, slime is common lisp only.
<narimiran> in slimv's readme it mentions clojure too, so i've guessed that any lisp might work :/
<bremner> ah. that might be optimistic
<narimiran> probably :)
<narimiran> "Lisp (any Common Lisp with SLIME support) or Clojure or MIT Scheme (Linux only)"
<narimiran> so my workflow with an open file and racket's REPL is the best i can do in vim?
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<bremner> Latest commit 8a2efd2 on Aug 19, 2014
<bremner> it might work great. But if it doesn't, sounds like you're on your own.
<bremner> there is a more recently active fork
<bremner> and the original would be worth a look as well
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<constptr> Hey there, will chez scheme compiler going to be core part of racket ?
<erkin> That's the plan.
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<samth> constptr: that's how Racket CS works
<bremnerd> related, will Racket CS always embed a fork of chez scheme?
<constptr> What about compatibility of R7RS ?
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<erkin> Not in the roadmap right now.
<bremnerd> there's a package written by lexi-lambda (in the channel).
<erkin> If anything the plan is diverging away from Scheme, judging by Rhombus project.
<bremnerd> that's for r7rs-small. I dunno if r7rs-large actually exists yet. jcowan seems to be deeply involved, but they are not here ATM
<samth> r7rs is well-supported by packages, and if people want more of it, that would be a fine thing to add more packages for
<erkin> R7RS Large exists in the form of dockets, of which only two have been finalised/frozen.
<erkin> The docket thing is a great idea IMO for incremental implementation that prevents vapourware.
<lexi-lambda> it’d be great if anyone actually cared about r7rs
* lexi-lambda ducks
<erkin> oof
<erkin> I'm on R6RS faction but I have high hopes for R7RS Large.
<lexi-lambda> why
<erkin> The set of features it seeks to standardise is pretty broad and promising.
<erkin> A bunch of them are already drafted as SRFIs, such as the monadic Maybe/Either.
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<winny> samth: thanks, in the case of building an installer from git, i'm not sure how to express that dependency, since it needs the same software it's to be building, at build phase (bootstrapping problem). usually that's handled in tree, but in this case it isn't.
<winny> anyway it seems from what you said indeed it's not really packagable from git as it is
<winny> since there is no way to grab all artifacts before build phase, without having the same software you're trying to install, installed
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<winny> hopefully I manage to find some time to use the snapshots =) I'll share any challenges that might ensue (first thought: how do i automate this?)
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