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<
seydar >
what has someone learned today?
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<
ikk- >
how to pp(a_obj) to a file ?
03:23
<
seydar >
File.open('blah.txt', 'w') {|f| f.write a_obj.pretty_inspect }
03:23
<
seydar >
#pretty_inspect is the magic you're looking for
03:24
<
ikk- >
seydar: o thank you
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<
NemesisD >
anyone know of a way to issue a shell command with shell expansion other than exec? i want to keep the process around
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07:02
<
yorickpeterse >
morning
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<
yorickpeterse >
lol centos still comes with Vim 7.2
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<
bnagy >
yeah and rpm
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07:48
<
yorickpeterse >
lol, I think I goof'd my requirements check:
07:48
<
yorickpeterse >
Checking for python...yes
07:48
<
yorickpeterse >
Checking for python >= 2.7...yes
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07:48
<
yorickpeterse >
(the actual no is supposed to be checking for `pip`)
07:48
<
yorickpeterse >
but for whatever reason the command just craps out
07:48
<
yorickpeterse >
and I have 10 minutes to fix it
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07:59
<
yorickpeterse >
oh, apparently centos comes with Python 2.6
*AND* python 2.7
07:59
<
yorickpeterse >
python, python26, python27, what the fuck
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08:17
<
tbuehlmann >
moin moin!
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08:19
<
erikh >
injekt: you're doing nokogiri now, right?
08:19
<
injekt >
erikh: I is
08:20
<
injekt >
during the 3 minutes a week I have time to
08:20
<
erikh >
can you detect solaris and force the existing libraries build path in the extconf.rb?
08:20
<
erikh >
I can give you vms to play with if you need some testing environments.
08:20
<
erikh >
lots of chef people would appreciate this.
08:21
<
injekt >
erikh: I'm happy to do this later in the week, I actually have some time off work thursday evening
08:21
<
erikh >
yeah, just as long as it gets done, I don't think there's any timeline.
08:21
<
erikh >
and let me know if you need some testing envs.
08:22
<
injekt >
has anyone taken a shot at this?
08:22
<
erikh >
we forced it today with the env, worked.
08:22
<
erikh >
but it picks the luis package thingy otherwise
08:22
<
erikh >
and that depends on a gnu toolchain -- which, surprise -- solaris doesn't include by default.
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08:23
<
erikh >
so we're certain it works, and I could write you up a patch, but I think it needs more adequate testing than I have time for
08:23
<
erikh >
and you'd probably want to verify it anyway. and it's proably a oneliner.
08:24
<
erikh >
dunno. if you want me to do it, I will.
08:25
<
injekt >
well, sure.. it would give me something to test right away
08:25
<
erikh >
ok, I'll make the patch and throw a zone your way with some ssh bits
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08:26
<
injekt >
I haven't done much on the build side of nokgiri so I'm not sure how many assumptions it makes (probably a few)
08:26
<
injekt >
great, appreciate it
08:26
<
erikh >
let me ping jtimberman so he knows to pester me to fix this
08:26
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08:26
<
erikh >
there are two major variants -- omnios and smartos, not sure if you're familiar with them
08:27
<
erikh >
i have smartos here, but not a good setup for omni
08:27
<
erikh >
he can provide omni
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08:27
<
erikh >
either way at least you'll get some thorough testing envs out of it
08:27
<
injekt >
great, no probs
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09:48
<
andrewvos >
hello erikh
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10:08
<
yorickpeterse >
It's a sad day when Java stuff is miles easier to install than Python stuff
10:08
<
yorickpeterse >
because hurrdurrr pip fucks shit up
10:08
<
yorickpeterse >
"OH YOU HAVE A BUILD DIRECTORY? LET ME JUST REMOVE THAT FOR YOU AND THEN FAIL BECAUSE THE DIRECTORY DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE"
10:09
<
yorickpeterse >
no shit, you just removed it
10:09
<
yorickpeterse >
ugh, I need lunch
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10:14
<
andrewvos >
Aww man than fuck for tmux. I just pressed CMD+Q by mistake on a huge vim etc. session
10:15
<
andrewvos >
yorickpeterse: hahaaha
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10:31
<
yorickpeterse >
of course #pip is dead
10:31
<
yorickpeterse >
bah
10:32
<
yorickpeterse >
"Your reference ID is "---"" lol booking.com
10:36
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10:36
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10:36
<
andrewvos >
MAybe you got lucky
10:37
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10:37
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10:37
scholar01 has joined #ruby-lang
10:38
<
judofyr >
Your reference ID is <%= id %>
10:39
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10:40
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10:45
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10:45
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10:48
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10:49
<
andrewvos >
<%= "#{i1}-#{i2}-#{i3}" %>
10:49
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10:49
<
andrewvos >
<%= "#{i1}-#{i2}-#{i3}-#{i4}" %>, actually.
10:51
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10:51
<
judofyr >
#join, do you speak it?
10:51
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10:52
<
andrewvos >
what does that do judofyr?
10:52
<
judofyr >
andrewvos: [i1, i2, i3, i4].join('-')
10:52
<
judofyr >
seems cleaner to me
10:53
<
judofyr >
andrewvos: or maybe `i` should be an array in the first place
10:53
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10:54
<
andrewvos >
Heh I was joking buddy
10:55
<
yorickpeterse >
damn pip you little shit
10:55
<
judofyr >
andrewvos: oooooh, now I see what you meant
10:55
<
judofyr >
yorickpeterse: enjoying Python?
10:56
<
judofyr >
yorickpeterse: I thought pip was a good package manager…
10:56
<
judofyr >
as opposed to easy_install
10:56
<
andrewvos >
yorickpeterse: Why you doing python?
10:56
<
yorickpeterse >
packaging it
10:56
<
yorickpeterse >
in ruby
10:56
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10:56
<
yorickpeterse >
no, I'm not joking
10:56
<
judofyr >
just like with that Perl thingie?
10:56
<
andrewvos >
yorickpeterse: Get a job
10:57
<
yorickpeterse >
judofyr: compared to easy_install, yes
10:57
<
yorickpeterse >
judofyr: yes
10:57
<
yorickpeterse >
andrewvos: this is for $WORK
10:57
<
yorickpeterse >
Pip is generally pretty ok
10:57
<
andrewvos >
yorickpeterse: Where do you work, IN HELL?
10:57
<
yorickpeterse >
but for whatever reason it just fails massively on this CentOS installation and I have no idea why
10:57
<
yorickpeterse >
andrewvos: purgatory
10:57
<
yorickpeterse >
also fuck off unknown phone number, stop spam calling me
10:57
* yorickpeterse
needs a new phone number
10:58
<
oddmunds >
yorickpeterse: i've got an app that lets me ignore unwanted phone calls
10:58
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10:58
<
yorickpeterse >
doesn't really work if the number is hidden
10:58
<
yorickpeterse >
I notified my phone provider but they haven't responded yet, may take up to 30 days
10:59
<
judofyr >
yorickpeterse: I have a mind that lets me ignore unwanted phone calls
10:59
<
yorickpeterse >
but considering I've had this number for more than 6 years now there's too many people that know it
10:59
<
yorickpeterse >
including the NSA probably
10:59
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10:59
<
oddmunds >
yorickpeterse: i think i can categorize hidden numbers as unwanted
10:59
<
yorickpeterse >
judofyr: it gets a bit annoying if you get called multiple times a day with 4-5 hour intervals
10:59
<
judofyr >
yorickpeterse: sounds like pain indeed
10:59
<
yorickpeterse >
at very specific minutes (usually between 55-0)
10:59
<
oddmunds >
i can not think of a single situation where i'd want to talk to someone with a hidden number
11:00
<
yorickpeterse >
same, I never pick them up but I at least check who's calling
11:00
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11:01
<
yorickpeterse >
my ringtone used to be the Metal gear solid codex tune so it wasn't exactly hard to miss
11:01
<
yorickpeterse >
but now I just have some boring one because Firefox OS doesn't let you pick your own
11:02
<
andrewvos >
yorickpeterse: Heh just got an Unknown right this second
11:03
<
yorickpeterse >
lel
11:03
<
yorickpeterse >
my phone privacy and such was all fine and dandy (minus the spying) but once I basically registered at the postal services to have them forward my stuff to my new address it all went to shit
11:03
<
yorickpeterse >
(you have to give your phone number)
11:04
<
yorickpeterse >
It's not really proven as far as I know but I'm pretty darn sure they just sell your info
11:04
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11:07
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11:09
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11:11
<
yorickpeterse >
I think the hardest part will be getting rid of my @gmail at some point
11:12
<
yorickpeterse >
because sadly there's just not a viable alternative at this point
11:12
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: set up your own
11:13
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11:14
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11:14
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11:15
<
GarethAdams >
sounds like a viable alternative for someone who wants to be more sysadmin-y
11:15
<
yorickpeterse >
whitequark: I really really really can not be fucked running my own mailserver
11:15
<
yorickpeterse >
I don't want to deal with dickhead sysadmins in bumfuck nowhere who happen to run some widely used spamlist and added my email to the blacklist for unknown reasons
11:17
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11:17
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: this literally never happened to me in almost five years of doing so
11:18
<
whitequark >
even when I was hosted in Russia
11:18
<
whitequark >
hell, even when I had dynamic DNS
11:18
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11:19
<
yorickpeterse >
I used to have Google apps but meh
11:19
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: spare a few days to set up postfix+dovecot+roundcube
11:19
<
whitequark >
it just works. I didn't touch it in years
11:19
<
yorickpeterse >
haha roundcube
11:19
<
yorickpeterse >
that shit is
*not* getting on my servers
11:20
<
whitequark >
have anything better?
11:20
<
yorickpeterse >
yes, it's called IMAP
11:20
<
yorickpeterse >
I don't need a stinkin' web interface
11:20
<
yorickpeterse >
I don't use Gmail's interface either
11:20
<
whitequark >
yeah, do you use thunderbird
11:20
<
yorickpeterse >
Yes
11:20
* whitequark
dies in laughter
11:20
x0f_ is now known as x0f
11:20
<
yorickpeterse >
(and it's garbage)
11:20
<
yorickpeterse >
but at least miles better than Roundcube
11:20
<
yorickpeterse >
Geary looks nice but is far from finished
11:20
<
whitequark >
server filters, man.
11:20
<
whitequark >
server filters.
11:21
<
darix >
i somehow get the feeling yorickpeterse should take a vacation soon. maybe the level of swearing in the channel would go down
11:21
<
yorickpeterse >
I have them?
11:21
<
whitequark >
sieve?
11:21
<
yorickpeterse >
the only time I log in to the gmail interface is to add filters
11:21
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11:21
<
yorickpeterse >
which is like, once a year
11:21
<
GarethAdams >
Thunderbird is implemented in HTML+javscript, does that make it a web interface? ;)
11:21
<
whitequark >
yes, fuck that
11:21
<
whitequark >
GarethAdams: XUL+JS
11:21
<
whitequark >
and C++
11:21
<
yorickpeterse >
GarethAdams: No, a web browser
11:21
<
whitequark >
it doesn't.
11:21
<
yorickpeterse >
Why it even has a chat feature is beyond my understanding
11:22
<
yorickpeterse >
<mozilla> hey guys, our Email client is total garbage. Lets add a chat feature so people forget about that!
11:22
<
yorickpeterse >
<insert that image of the little girl with the folks cheering>
11:23
<
yorickpeterse >
either way, I have high hopes for Geary
11:23
<
whitequark >
GNOME?
11:23
<
yorickpeterse >
Yes?
11:23
<
whitequark >
did they stop randomly remove useful features already and turn your fucking desktop into a fucking tablet?
11:23
<
whitequark >
I'll answer for you
11:23
<
yorickpeterse >
hey I'm not hacker enough to use Mutt (I used it for a year or so), I get too many HTML Emails
11:23
<
yorickpeterse >
I don't run Gnome
11:23
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11:23
<
yorickpeterse >
thus about 85% of their BS doesn't affect me
11:24
<
whitequark >
this permeates all software in Gnome
11:24
<
yorickpeterse >
Linux apps don't follow the Gnome standard anyway :>
11:24
<
whitequark >
look at Geary's UI
11:24
<
whitequark >
it's built for someone's fucking fat fingers
11:24
<
yorickpeterse >
haha
11:24
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11:25
<
yorickpeterse >
well it's either Mutt, Thunderbird or Geary
11:25
<
yorickpeterse >
or Evolution if you only have 5 Emails
11:25
<
darix >
try claws-mail.
11:25
<
yorickpeterse >
hm, lets see
11:25
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11:26
<
darix >
one of the few gui muas that handles 200k+ mails in a mailbox nicely.
11:26
<
yorickpeterse >
meh, I kinda like being able to use Vim for Thunderbird
11:26
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11:26
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11:26
<
yorickpeterse >
and sync with google contacts
11:27
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11:27
* whitequark
has LDAP
11:27
<
whitequark >
surprisingly convenient
11:27
<
whitequark >
plus vendors <3 LDAP, because Exchange
11:27
<
yorickpeterse >
exchange, bah
11:27
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11:28
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11:28
<
andrewvos >
LDAP sounds like a condition.
11:29
<
whitequark >
one thing I wonder is the L
11:29
<
darix >
when ever you deal with ldap and think ... damn thats hard/difficult ... imagine how life would be with DAP/x509 ;)
11:29
<
whitequark >
I mean, it is hard to imagine what the hell has it replaced if it's Lightweight in comparison
11:29
<
yorickpeterse >
darix: also fun fact: I generally don't swear a lot outside of IRC
11:29
<
yorickpeterse >
sometimes I do throw up my arms in the air and yell something like "OH MOTHERFUHHNNGGgggg...I probably shouldn't say that at work"
11:29
<
darix >
yorickpeterse: well you (ab)use us for that. so of course you will be calm irl afterwards :p
11:30
<
yorickpeterse >
doh
11:30
<
yorickpeterse >
IRC is my rubber duck
11:30
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11:31
<
yorickpeterse >
hmmm
11:33
<
whitequark >
charliesome: hi
11:33
<
charliesome >
whitequark hi!
11:33
<
whitequark >
y u just run away
11:33
<
whitequark >
not cool :/
11:33
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11:34
<
charliesome >
whitequark: dodgy internet
11:34
<
judofyr >
whitequark: I saw you released beta of Parser 2.0.0. how far away is the release?
11:34
<
whitequark >
judofyr: there's an issue with release schedule
11:34
<
whitequark >
charliesome: well whatever. look, the problem is called LALR(1)
11:34
<
whitequark >
in particular it is not possible to have {...} =
11:34
<
whitequark >
there are two solutions:
11:34
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11:35
<
whitequark >
1) add a sigil. like *{ ... } =
11:35
<
charliesome >
whitequark: can you allow a hash to be the lval of =, then check in the parser that the keys and values are what you expect?
11:35
<
whitequark >
2) stay with the parens, and abandon name punning. (foo: bar, baz: goo) =
11:35
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11:35
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11:35
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11:35
<
yorickpeterse >
damn, claws-mail looks hideous
11:35
<
whitequark >
charliesome: this is an incredible pain in the ass
11:35
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11:35
<
yorickpeterse >
it's like a GTK app from 10 years ago
11:36
<
charliesome >
whitequark: how come?
11:36
<
charliesome >
i do this in slash
11:36
<
charliesome >
see the SL_NODE_ARRAY branch
11:36
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11:36
<
whitequark >
charliesome: well if you're up to implementing this in parse.y then sure
11:36
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11:36
<
whitequark >
actually
11:37
<
whitequark >
no, this is bad too.
11:37
<
whitequark >
it prohibits name punning as well
11:37
<
judofyr >
charliesome: what are you trying to do?
11:37
<
charliesome >
it shouldn't be too hard, just push the checking into a nice helper function
11:37
<
whitequark >
charliesome: {foo} = bar
11:37
<
whitequark >
is not a valid hash
11:37
<
charliesome >
whitequark: allow that syntax and make it a special ast node called a LHS_HASH or some shit
11:37
<
yorickpeterse >
why the hell would you want that anyway
11:38
<
charliesome >
judofyr: me and whitequark want to add record unpacking to ruby
11:38
<
charliesome >
whitequark: either way, i know this is definitely possible, maybe not nicely though
11:38
<
whitequark >
charliesome: it is not necessarily possible with LALR(1)
11:38
<
whitequark >
remember that you have recursive descent
11:38
<
yorickpeterse >
do you need such a crazy suntax for that?
11:38
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11:38
<
charliesome >
yorickpeterse: what's wrong with {foo, bar} = some_hash
11:39
<
yorickpeterse >
what would {foo, bar} here do?
11:39
<
yorickpeterse >
container the values of :foo and :bar?
11:39
<
judofyr >
charliesome: so `{foo, bar} = baz` is equal to `foo = baz[:foo]; bar = baz[:bar]` ?
11:39
<
charliesome >
whitequark: stupid LALR, we should all just hand roll recursive descent ;)
11:39
<
charliesome >
judofyr: yup
11:39
<
whitequark >
charliesome: agreed
11:39
<
charliesome >
judofyr: you can even do things like
11:39
<
whitequark >
LALR is a dumb idea
11:39
<
whitequark >
charliesome: ok. I'll try to roll your idea with LHS_HASH
11:40
<
whitequark >
well it won't be LHS_HASH
11:40
<
whitequark >
all hashes will include this syntax
11:40
<
whitequark >
oh right
11:40
<
whitequark >
what about allowing it on rhs? :D
11:40
<
charliesome >
judofyr: {weather, city} = /it is (?<weather>.*?) in (?<city>.*)/.match("it is cold in melbourne")
11:40
<
charliesome >
whitequark: while we're at it
11:40
<
charliesome >
i'd like to add
11:40
<
charliesome >
{ foo } as a synonym for { foo: foo }
11:40
<
whitequark >
x = {foo}; equivalent to x = {foo: foo}
11:40
<
charliesome >
like in C#
11:40
<
yorickpeterse >
charliesome what are you smoking?
11:40
<
whitequark >
charliesome: that makes it way easier, yes
11:40
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11:41
<
charliesome >
whitequark: then if you do that transformation in the hash grammar, you don't need to care about it in the assignment grammar!
11:41
<
whitequark >
charliesome: sure
11:41
<
judofyr >
charliesome: right. what about using `{ :foo, :bar } = baz` instead, and then `{ foo } = bar` can be `foo = bar.foo`?
11:41
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11:41
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11:41
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11:41
<
charliesome >
yorickpeterse: in regards to what
11:41
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11:41
<
whitequark >
judofyr: what?
11:41
<
charliesome >
judofyr: not sure
11:41
<
whitequark >
destructuring must mirror structuring
11:42
<
judofyr >
charliesome: hm. doesn't really mirror structuring though …
11:42
<
whitequark >
charliesome: that will also allow { :foo= => bar }
11:42
<
whitequark >
this is prolly more good than bad
11:42
<
whitequark >
kind of ruby way
11:43
<
whitequark >
charliesome: mmm yes, I like how this turns out
11:43
<
charliesome >
whitequark: as long as it isn't completely insane, i say we should let the weird stuff be
11:44
<
charliesome >
whitequark: :D
11:44
<
charliesome >
constraint breeds creativity, right
11:44
* whitequark
whips out the editor
11:44
<
whitequark >
charliesome: which constraint?
11:44
<
whitequark >
it's less constrained than the previous variant
11:44
<
whitequark >
and in Foundry, there's just let-binding and there is no problems with dat :p
11:44
<
charliesome >
the constraint that we couldn't do the obvious thing because LALR
11:45
<
charliesome >
so we had to think of another approach that actually turned out quite nicely
11:45
<
whitequark >
hah ok
11:45
<
charliesome >
oh also
11:45
<
charliesome >
{ foo: @foo } = { foo: 123 }
11:45
<
charliesome >
i like
11:45
<
whitequark >
{ @foo } = { foo: 123 }
11:45
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11:45
<
charliesome >
maybe shorten that to { @foo } = { foo: 123 }
11:45
<
whitequark >
then you would need to strip sigils, though
11:45
<
charliesome >
theres some macros to quickly convert between symbols of different types
11:46
<
whitequark >
but I think this is overall a good idea
11:46
<
whitequark >
charliesome: oh, talking about simplicity
11:46
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11:46
<
charliesome >
i don't know 100% how it works, but basically part of a symbols' identity is a set of flags describing whether its an ivar or whatever
11:46
<
whitequark >
want to know how I redid ruby's special forms (module/class/def etc) in foundry?
11:46
<
charliesome >
whitequark: shoot
11:46
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11:46
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11:46
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11:47
<
erikh >
andrewvos: hihi
11:47
<
whitequark >
charliesome: so. there's only self, no default definee or cref. also, there's only regular closures.
11:47
<
whitequark >
charliesome: a closure may have one of two syntactic forms
11:47
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11:47
<
whitequark >
either (self, a, b, *args) {} or (a, b, *args) {}
11:47
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11:47
<
whitequark >
in the first form, it explicitly receives the new self and binds it in the body
11:47
<
whitequark >
in the second form, the self is taken as an upvalue from the parent environment
11:48
<
whitequark >
class Foo; end; binds the self to newly created Foo
11:48
<
whitequark >
def bar(baz) is just a syntactic sugar for doing self.define_method(:bar, (self, baz) {})
11:48
<
whitequark >
oh and classes/modules inherit local variables of their parent environment
11:48
<
whitequark >
that's about it.
11:49
<
whitequark >
instead of cref I have imports which are strictly lexical, plus a sensible module system
11:49
<
whitequark >
generally, there is almost none nonlocal context.
11:49
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11:49
<
charliesome >
hmm interesting
11:49
<
whitequark >
the (self){} / (){} variants allow to explicitly emulate the neat/horrible instance_exec trick
11:49
<
charliesome >
so foundry isn't really a ruby
11:50
<
whitequark >
where you substitute self for a block
11:50
<
whitequark >
charliesome: it never was, it just used to share a chunk of syntax
11:50
<
whitequark >
and a chunk of object model.
11:50
zzak_ is now known as zzak
11:50
<
whitequark >
it still shares all the interesting parts of object model, though, and that isn't changing.
11:50
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11:50
<
charliesome >
whitequark: ah right
11:50
<
whitequark >
charliesome: whaddayathink?
11:50
<
charliesome >
i was under the impression that it was a subset of ruby
11:51
<
whitequark >
imo it's very elegant and easy to reason about
11:51
<
charliesome >
but instead it is mostly but not quite overlapping with ruby
11:51
<
charliesome >
i don't mind it though
11:51
<
charliesome >
slash doesn't have a concept of default definee either
11:51
<
whitequark >
charliesome: it never was a proper subset; that's not realistically possible. but it ideologically is very very close to ruby.
11:51
<
charliesome >
i have something like the cref and i definitely have the concept of self
11:51
<
whitequark >
much closer than anything else I know
11:52
<
charliesome >
default definee has never done anything except annoy the shit out of me ;)
11:52
<
whitequark >
charliesome: what about the explicit self syntactic trick?
11:52
<
charliesome >
whitequark: it's actually quite interesting
11:52
<
whitequark >
I think it really solves just all problems with strange self behavior
11:52
<
charliesome >
can you set self to something else halfway down a block of code?
11:52
<
whitequark >
and makes methods just closures, nothing more
11:52
<
whitequark >
ummm no, self is not a variable
11:53
<
charliesome >
aw :9
11:53
<
zzak >
charliesome: do you use jruby on osx?
11:53
<
charliesome >
zzak: not really, how come?
11:53
<
whitequark >
charliesome: technically I can make it so, but why?
11:53
<
charliesome >
whitequark: because it could be cool
11:53
<
zzak >
charliesome: i need to set it up, but not sure what jdk i should be using for jruby 1.7+
11:53
<
erikh >
man, today's gonna be a looooooong day
11:53
<
charliesome >
zzak: i just use the default
11:53
* erikh
hasn't slept
11:53
benlovell has joined #ruby-lang
11:53
<
charliesome >
zzak: it works, it may not be the fastest, but it works
11:53
<
zzak >
charliesome: ty!
11:54
<
charliesome >
whitequark: have you seen the proposal on redmine to make self a public method?
11:54
<
whitequark >
charliesome: wat
11:54
<
zzak >
erikh: that makes two
11:54
<
charliesome >
i'm quite in favour of it
11:54
<
judofyr >
it's not replacing the keyword
11:54
<
erikh >
zzak: yeah; saw the tweets
11:54
<
judofyr >
but they might add Object#self
11:54
<
charliesome >
i would like to see the keyword become a method call
11:54
<
erikh >
have to leave for work in an hour :(
11:54
<
whitequark >
charliesome: and why is that good?
11:54
<
judofyr >
charliesome: `self = foo` would be confusing though
11:54
<
zzak >
erikh: how long is your commute?
11:55
<
judofyr >
because it doesn't do as expected
11:55
<
erikh >
zzak: about 1.5 hours
11:55
<
whitequark >
erikh: no, it isn't
11:55
<
charliesome >
whitequark: well it lets you do stuff like [1,2,3].group_by(&:self)
11:55
<
whitequark >
erikh: self is essentially a local variable
11:55
<
erikh >
whitequark: exactly.
11:55
<
whitequark >
method calls follow a completely different resolution path
11:55
<
erikh >
whitequark: I think you're pinging the wrong person
11:55
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11:55
<
charliesome >
BasicObject#self returning the receiver would be cool
11:55
<
whitequark >
right :D
11:55
<
erikh >
I said POLS because self acting one way and only one way is least surprisingly.
11:56
<
charliesome >
erikh: ruby doesn't follow POLS
11:56
<
charliesome >
erikh: it follows POLMS
11:56
<
whitequark >
erikh: wait, now I don't get it again
11:56
<
whitequark >
one way and only one way?
11:56
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11:56
<
erikh >
Matz waxes philosophic about design imperfection, the danger of orthogonality, granting freedom with guidance, the principle of least surprise, and the importance of the human in computer endeavors.
11:56
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11:57
<
judofyr >
charliesome: Principle of Least Mississippi Surprise?
11:57
<
erikh >
it's been a theme in ruby for a very long time
11:57
<
erikh >
only lately is it getting cloudy.
11:58
<
erikh >
I think because matz is somewhat burnt out, best I can tell.
11:58
<
erikh >
but that's of course, speculation.
11:58
<
andrewvos >
Principal Of Least Meat Surprise
11:58
<
whitequark >
charliesome: foundry also differs from ruby in other aspects, apart from type system
11:58
<
erikh >
andrewvos: surprise meatsex
11:58
<
whitequark >
charliesome: mainly: all bindings are immutable by default
11:58
<
andrewvos >
erikh: yay
11:58
<
erikh >
tenderize all the things
11:58
* erikh
will see himself out
11:59
<
charliesome >
erikh: i don't blame someone for burning out after 20 years
11:59
<
andrewvos >
erikh: It's the door on the left
11:59
<
yorickpeterse >
you mean add cats everywhere?
11:59
<
whitequark >
charliesome: compilers <3 immutable bindings.
11:59
<
yorickpeterse >
I can live with that
11:59
<
charliesome >
whitequark: yeh
11:59
<
erikh >
charliesome: I don't either.
11:59
<
erikh >
I just think that's hwat it is.
11:59
<
erikh >
ruby kind of got bigger than him, too. maybe he's recognizing that.
11:59
<
erikh >
worse fates :)
11:59
<
whitequark >
not maybe. he does know that.
11:59
<
whitequark >
said it explicitly, not once.
12:00
<
erikh >
I stay off the lists / conf stuff these days.
12:00
<
whitequark >
eg in response to brixen's rant. he wasn't happy but acknowledged the fact, kinda
12:00
<
erikh >
I have nothing nice to say about that.
12:00
<
erikh >
you can dislike something without being a cock.
12:01
<
erikh >
he's not good at doing that.
12:01
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12:01
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12:01
cored has joined #ruby-lang
12:01
<
erikh >
anyhow, I should probably hop in the shower soon
12:02
* whitequark
contemplates 'fg 1'
12:02
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12:02
<
erikh >
be careful what you wish for
12:02
<
erikh >
my red bull isn't empty yet.
12:03
<
erikh >
fg %1, fwiw.
12:03
<
yorickpeterse >
kill -9 $(pidof erikh)
12:03
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12:03
<
whitequark >
right, %1
12:03
<
judofyr >
or just %1
12:03
<
erikh >
I had to do that the other day
12:03
<
erikh >
pkill -U <user>
12:03
<
erikh >
on about 200 hosts.
12:03
<
yorickpeterse >
wat
12:03
<
erikh >
long story.
12:03
<
whitequark >
kill -CHLD $(pidof erikh)
12:04
<
whitequark >
huh, signal list has a lot of weird things applicable to people
12:04
<
charliesome >
erikh: ENOENT or ESRCH? /pedant
12:05
<
erikh >
charliesome: sorry, yeah.
12:05
<
Zeeo >
hey guys, can I get my support? I have links on my clipboard
12:05
<
whitequark >
ALRM, TRAP, STOP, BUS
12:05
<
Zeeo >
*some support
12:05
<
charliesome >
whitequark: it's a (sig)trap!
12:05
<
injekt >
What's a lel?
12:05
<
judofyr >
I don't always kill children, but when I do, I kill all of them.
12:05
<
erikh >
injekt: something eblack would say
12:05
<
Zeeo >
it's a command
12:05
Pupeno has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
12:05
<
Zeeo >
my window just turned rainbowish
12:05
<
whitequark >
hey inkjet
12:05
<
injekt >
Zeeo: it's fabulous!
12:06
<
injekt >
whitequark: hello
12:06
<
erikh >
either that or you got dosed
12:06
<
erikh >
anyhow, really
12:06
<
judofyr >
charliesome: btw, how does better_errors grab bindings from an exception?
12:06
<
whitequark >
binding_of_caller
12:06
<
whitequark >
I think
12:06
<
Zeeo >
yeah I can't read anymore
12:06
<
charliesome >
judofyr: hehehe don't ask
12:06
<
whitequark >
judofyr: lots of C magick
12:06
<
whitequark >
which I don't approve of but it's needed
12:07
<
judofyr >
whitequark: no C in better_errors. in binding_of_caller on the other hand…
12:07
<
whitequark >
charliesome: I think you have a race condition
12:07
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12:07
<
charliesome >
whitequark: oh?
12:07
<
whitequark >
between lines 6 and 8
12:07
<
whitequark >
*6 and 7
12:07
<
judofyr >
charliesome: set_backtrace is called by #raise ?
12:08
<
charliesome >
judofyr: yep
12:08
<
charliesome >
judofyr: i originally used #initialize but that broke if someone creates an exception separately from raising it
12:08
<
whitequark >
charliesome: two threads can simultaneously execute 6, then execute 7
12:08
<
charliesome >
judofyr: eg. sys stack error
12:08
<
charliesome >
whitequark: Thread.current though
12:08
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12:08
<
whitequark >
oooh right
12:08
<
charliesome >
only worry is fibers, which i'm not worried about
12:09
<
whitequark >
yes fibers cannot interfere here
12:09
<
charliesome >
that's basically because otherwise i was blowing the stack when i raised an exception inside set_backtrace
12:09
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12:09
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12:10
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12:10
<
Zeeo >
maybe my question is gonna look stupid to you ._.
12:10
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12:10
<
whitequark >
charliesome: what if...
12:10
<
whitequark >
I do {foo} and there's no lvar foo?
12:11
<
charliesome >
whitequark: hm
12:11
<
charliesome >
i think it should be a vcall
12:11
<
whitequark >
agreed
12:11
<
charliesome >
and i think vcalls on LHS hashes should be converted to locals
12:12
<
whitequark >
what a horrible hack
12:13
<
whitequark >
hrm, that's bad
12:13
<
whitequark >
that breaks a = a
12:13
<
whitequark >
charliesome: I
*think* I have a horrendous solution for that
12:14
<
whitequark >
a LALR(1) lookahead-bound rule
12:14
<
charliesome >
whitequark: breaks a = a?
12:14
<
whitequark >
charliesome: yes
12:14
<
whitequark >
a = a # => nil
12:14
<
whitequark >
always
12:14
<
whitequark >
and {foo} = {foo} # => not {foo:nil}
12:14
<
whitequark >
this is more important e.g. if you have lambdas on rhs
12:15
<
charliesome >
whitequark: well actually
12:15
<
charliesome >
{foo} = {foo}
12:15
<
whitequark >
{is_even, is_odd} = {is_even: ->(x) { x == 1 ? true : !is_odd.(x - 1) }, is_odd: ->(x) { x == 0 ? true : !is_even(x - 1) })
12:15
<
whitequark >
like this
12:15
<
charliesome >
the foo vcall on the left gets turned into a variable
12:15
<
charliesome >
so {foo} on the right becomes a variable too
12:15
<
whitequark >
charliesome: no
12:15
<
charliesome >
so foo == nil
12:15
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12:16
<
whitequark >
VCALLs are not interpreted as variables if variables in the binding exist
12:16
<
whitequark >
corresponding
12:16
<
whitequark >
the CALL/VCALL distinction is there
*only* for error messages
12:16
<
charliesome >
but there are separate nodes
12:16
<
whitequark >
for error messages.
12:16
<
charliesome >
and if you see = after parsing a hash
12:16
<
charliesome >
you can go through the hash on the left
12:17
<
whitequark >
yes, this is what I offered to do
12:17
<
charliesome >
convert VCALLs to local variables
12:17
<
whitequark >
with LALR(1) lookahead hack
12:17
<
charliesome >
i dunno the jargon, but is that basically what i'm describing?
12:17
<
whitequark >
but it's a hack, because it depends on whether your LALR(1) generator wants to do lookahead or not
12:17
<
whitequark >
and it's fragile
12:17
<
whitequark >
charliesome: yes
12:17
<
whitequark >
but, fuck LALR(1).
12:17
<
whitequark >
I'll do that
12:17
<
whitequark >
but seriously man
12:17
<
whitequark >
fuck it a thousand times
12:18
<
whitequark >
... oh, that's what I basically did with parser. nevermind
12:19
<
whitequark >
awesoooome
12:19
<
whitequark >
{foo} results in 25 r/r conflicts
12:19
<
yorickpeterse >
"Checking for Perl module ExtUtils::MakeMaker... yes" In a Ruby project
12:19
* yorickpeterse
runs
12:20
<
yorickpeterse >
oh man, I can't wait to show this to the world and have people call me bonkers
12:20
<
yorickpeterse >
but that will sadly take another year or so
12:20
<
charliesome >
whitequark: excellent
12:20
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12:20
<
whitequark >
hm that may be actually solvable
12:21
<
yorickpeterse >
nobody at $WORK got my dolan avatar anyway
12:21
<
yorickpeterse >
"Oh Yorick has a duck as an avatar"
12:21
<
zzak >
charliesome: that was way easier not being on airport wifi
12:22
<
charliesome >
yorickpeterse: is acualy yorck
12:22
<
charliesome >
zzak: lol
12:22
<
charliesome >
zzak: man, you were in japan for ages
12:22
<
judofyr >
whitequark: charliesome: btw, I was wondering if it was possible to record where objects are allocated and present data in a memory profiler-ish way. thoughts?
12:22
<
zzak >
charliesome: for sure
12:22
<
whitequark >
judofyr: I think this was done
12:23
<
zzak >
charliesome: good to be home <3
12:23
<
charliesome >
judofyr: its built in
12:23
<
judofyr >
charliesome: show me!
12:23
<
charliesome >
judofyr: if you want lots of deets, ask tmm1. he knows all about that shit
12:23
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12:24
<
judofyr >
charliesome: awesome
12:24
<
zzak >
charliesome: im looking forward to meeting you at wickedgoodruby
12:25
<
zzak >
charliesome: ko1 is trying to go too
12:25
<
charliesome >
zzak: oh awesome!
12:25
<
charliesome >
yeah wickedgood should be rad
12:25
<
charliesome >
looking forward to divulging all the mri hacks on stage
12:26
<
zzak >
im looking forward to divulging all the mri cats on stage
12:26
<
yorickpeterse >
wat
12:26
<
yorickpeterse >
what ruby meetup/conf is this
12:26
<
yorickpeterse >
and where can I find it
12:26
<
judofyr >
charliesome: cool, GC_DEBUG looks like exactly what I want
12:26
<
zzak >
thats if i get accepted, seriously
12:27
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12:28
<
yorickpeterse >
hmmmmm
12:29
<
yorickpeterse >
man I only know a few of these olkf
12:29
<
yorickpeterse >
* folks
12:29
<
yorickpeterse >
which is kinda bad I suppose
12:30
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: ummm we have a problem
12:30
<
zzak >
i see that as a good thing
12:30
<
yorickpeterse >
whitequark: do tell
12:30
<
whitequark >
charliesome: ^
12:30
<
whitequark >
in particular
12:30
<
charliesome >
whitequark: hm?
12:30
<
whitequark >
{foo} is ambiguous with {foo=>1}
12:31
<
charliesome >
is it?
12:31
<
charliesome >
i don't think so
12:31
<
whitequark >
surprisingly
12:31
<
yorickpeterse >
charliesome: wooow holy shit, these tickets are stupid expensive
12:31
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12:31
<
yorickpeterse >
I can't afford that ._.
12:31
<
whitequark >
well, for LALR(1) it is, at least, and it reduces my beloved foo as user_variable
12:31
<
charliesome >
yorickpeterse: lol are they?
12:31
<
whitequark >
and then wents for arg_value tASSOC arg_value
12:31
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12:32
<
yorickpeterse >
charliesome: 350 USD
12:32
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12:32
<
charliesome >
yorickpeterse: damn that's cheap
12:32
<
charliesome >
yorickpeterse: rubyconf au was $500 bucks
12:32
<
yorickpeterse >
it's expensive if you consider I'd also have to pay 1k to just fly over there
12:32
<
charliesome >
yeah true
12:32
<
yorickpeterse >
this would probably be just as expensive as two weeks in South korea
12:33
<
zzak >
charliesome: this is a regional conf tho
12:33
<
charliesome >
yorickpeterse: submit a talk proposal
12:33
<
charliesome >
yorickpeterse: go for free ;)
12:33
<
zzak >
that was rubyconf
12:33
<
charliesome >
zzak: does rubyconf au count as regional?
12:33
<
yorickpeterse >
meh, I might teach at Rails girls here in NL this year
12:33
<
zzak >
au is a continent
12:33
<
yorickpeterse >
and we might sponsor it if I can convince my employer
12:34
<
zzak >
regional is like, sapporo, osaka, etc
12:34
<
yorickpeterse >
apparently my 4 Rbx commits sparked some interest
12:34
<
charliesome >
ah right
12:34
<
zzak >
usually they are cheaper if you submit
12:34
<
whitequark >
charliesome: oh I got it
12:34
<
whitequark >
assocs
12:35
<
whitequark >
assocs are a part of the method call rule
12:35
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12:35
<
whitequark >
so you see
12:35
<
whitequark >
foo(bar)
12:35
<
whitequark >
is ambiguous between foo(bar) where bar is just an local variable
12:35
<
whitequark >
and foo(bar) where bar is actually bar: bar.
12:35
<
zzak >
an awful lot of work goes into organizing and putting on a conference
12:35
<
zzak >
work and money
12:35
<
charliesome >
whitequark: oooh
12:36
<
charliesome >
whitequark: can you go like
12:36
<
yorickpeterse >
injekt: you were going to arrrcamp this year right?
12:36
<
charliesome >
'{' (assoc | local_variable) … '}'
12:36
<
whitequark >
fork rules for a hash?
12:36
<
charliesome >
whitequark: yeah
12:36
<
whitequark >
i can try
12:37
<
charliesome >
so a hash has many elements
12:37
<
dbussink >
yorickpeterse: where's the nl rails girls meetup? guess somewhere in the western part right?
12:37
<
charliesome >
an element can be an assoc or a local/ivar/cvar/gvar/constant/whatever
12:37
<
yorickpeterse >
dbussink: Den haag
12:37
<
yorickpeterse >
there's one this week apparently but I'm not sure what date
12:37
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12:37
<
yorickpeterse >
wait, that was some meetup not related to rails girls
12:37
<
yorickpeterse >
the actual even is in september
12:37
<
yorickpeterse >
* event
12:38
<
dbussink >
yorickpeterse: ah ok, that's pretty far from here yeah :(
12:38
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12:38
<
yorickpeterse >
haha yeah
12:38
<
yorickpeterse >
should move closer to amsterdam :>
12:39
<
whitequark >
charliesome: I totally can and it works
12:39
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12:39
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12:40
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12:40
<
charliesome >
whitequark: kickass
12:40
<
charliesome >
thats just what we want
12:40
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12:40
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12:41
<
judofyr >
whitequark: does it mix too? {foo, bar: 1}
12:42
<
Zeeo >
anyone available to give me some help?
12:42
<
charliesome >
whitequark, judofyr: i think it should mix
12:42
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12:42
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12:44
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12:44
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12:45
<
whitequark >
judofyr: syre
12:46
<
whitequark >
oh, actually no
12:46
* whitequark
investigating
12:46
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12:46
<
whitequark >
oh, I just broke shit
12:47
<
whitequark >
replaced tIDENTIFIER with var_lhs and it broke.
12:47
<
whitequark >
6 R/R conflicts.
12:47
<
whitequark >
brb dishes and food.
12:48
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12:49
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12:56
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12:56
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12:59
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13:00
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13:01
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: wtf
13:01
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13:01
<
whitequark >
oh it is just a bunch of emscripten shit without a well-defined sandbox model
13:02
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13:02
<
whitequark >
completely uninterested
13:02
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13:03
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13:03
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13:04
<
charliesome >
whitequark: harsh
13:05
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13:06
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13:07
<
whitequark >
charliesome: but true
13:07
<
whitequark >
emscripten is essentially a thing for easy porting of legacy code
13:07
<
whitequark >
people run around with it like it solves all of their problems once and for all
13:07
<
whitequark >
same for asm.js, which is essentially emscripten vm.
13:07
<
charliesome >
sure, but if you consider this is just someone's little project for messing around and learning a thing or two
13:08
<
whitequark >
we should ideally have
*less* emscripten/asm.js code, not more.
13:08
<
whitequark >
charliesome: well, I was replying to yorickpeterse after all, not the author.
13:08
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: also Y U NO RETWEET? D:
13:08
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13:09
<
whitequark >
charliesome: you are right in that I often value someone's personal achievements as objective ones, and the result is not very fair
13:09
<
whitequark >
I should work on that.
13:10
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13:10
<
whitequark >
as in: personal achievement = was it hard/rewarding to do it; objective achievement = does it solve more problems than creates.
13:10
<
charliesome >
at the same time i understand where you're coming from
13:11
<
charliesome >
it's just this is an issue i take personally because I wouldn't be where I am without countless of useless but challenging projects
13:11
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13:11
<
whitequark >
charliesome: it is even somewhat hypocritical. i used to write operating systems, you know
13:11
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13:11
<
whitequark >
even despite the fact that I always designed such projects to be technically practical.
13:12
<
whitequark >
"this won't gain traction because I'm some random dude and it's 2013, but it is technically able".
13:12
<
whitequark >
another problem with this attitude is that it shuns research projects
13:12
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13:12
<
whitequark >
which are aimed at neither personal nor objective achievements
13:12
<
charliesome >
right
13:13
<
charliesome >
related: i also hate it when people ask "what's the point"
13:13
<
charliesome >
often there is none. not everything has to have a 'point'
13:13
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13:13
<
charliesome >
you do shit because it's fun
13:13
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13:13
<
whitequark >
I think I have an easy solution for that, at least for myself
13:13
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13:13
<
whitequark >
start with asking: what kind of project it is?
13:13
<
whitequark >
personal/objective/research.
13:13
<
whitequark >
then, judge accordingly.
13:14
<
whitequark >
because if it's objective, then asking what's the point is completely justified
13:14
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13:14
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13:14
<
whitequark >
and must be done.
13:14
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13:15
<
whitequark >
don't ask "what's the point", ask "why did you do this".
13:15
<
whitequark >
hear "for fun", walk away quietly.
13:15
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13:16
<
whitequark >
charliesome: also what do you think of my article
13:16
<
charliesome >
whitequark: oh i didn't see it, gonna read it now!
13:16
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13:22
<
whitequark >
charliesome: also I need to blog about "what's the point"
13:23
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13:23
<
charliesome >
whitequark: yeah i agree
13:23
<
charliesome >
(re your post)
13:23
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13:23
<
charliesome >
the web is turning into an application platform but it just isn't built for it
13:24
<
whitequark >
beautiful summary
13:26
<
yorickpeterse >
whitequark: RETWEET WHAT
13:27
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13:28
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: oh, I thought that notanos thing was in response to my article :p
13:28
<
yorickpeterse >
oh, no
13:28
<
yorickpeterse >
I just saw it on HN
13:28
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13:31
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: that thread summarizes all the new hip things
13:31
<
whitequark >
emscripten, js, and rpi.
13:31
<
charliesome >
whitequark: don't knock the rpi
13:32
<
whitequark >
charliesome: i did, i do and i will.
13:32
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13:32
<
jroes >
are they dropping down to the metal with node again?
13:32
<
jroes >
those rascals
13:33
<
whitequark >
the only awesome thing in rpi is the marketing genius of broadcom
13:33
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13:33
<
charliesome >
whitequark: but it's a handy little machine to run 24/7
13:33
<
whitequark >
if you don't really want to do anything, yes
13:33
<
charliesome >
whitequark: i've got my raspberry pi sitting behind the tv, plugged into the network
13:33
<
charliesome >
it has apache and slash installed
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13:34
<
whitequark >
look at the full picture.
13:34
<
whitequark >
I never said that cheap single-board computers were irrelevant.
13:34
<
yorickpeterse >
I never got the part where people get something like a phone or a board and just install a webserver on it
13:34
<
yorickpeterse >
especially apache
13:35
<
charliesome >
yorickpeterse: because i couldn't think of anything better to do with it
13:35
<
whitequark >
exactly.
13:35
<
charliesome >
but still!
13:36
<
whitequark >
look at e.g. beagleboard black.
13:36
<
whitequark >
it's not as good as I wish it was, but it's a step in the right direction
13:36
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13:37
<
yorickpeterse >
that reminds me, I still have an Android tablet in my attic. I should probably install an IRC bouncer and KDE on it
13:37
<
whitequark >
sane and more useful hardware, sane software on top of that, vendor which is actually interested in something except selling you overpriced shit.
13:38
<
charliesome >
yorickpeterse: a bnc would actually be quite a good thing to slap on my rpi
13:38
<
yorickpeterse >
srsly
13:39
<
whitequark >
charliesome: dunno why do you want a bnc connector on your rpi
13:40
<
yorickpeterse >
"because fuck you"
13:40
<
charliesome >
whitequark: for my home coax network of course
13:40
<
whitequark >
charliesome: do you use thick ethernet bro
13:40
<
whitequark >
on a whopping 2.5 megabits of bandwidth
13:40
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13:41
<
charliesome >
whitequark: only for my backbone
13:41
<
charliesome >
i use token ring for my computers
13:41
<
whitequark >
charliesome: do you also have DECnet right
13:41
<
yorickpeterse >
a token ring with a 500ms ping
13:42
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13:42
<
whitequark >
fun thing
13:42
<
whitequark >
linux still has decnet support.
13:47
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13:48
<
andrewvos >
yorickpeterse: I thought you were going to start rapping about network protocols after that
13:49
<
yorickpeterse >
rapping? What the fuck? Do I look like a wigger to you?
13:49
* yorickpeterse
does listen to japanese hip-hop
13:49
<
yorickpeterse >
lel
13:49
<
yorickpeterse >
what, you're not familiar with the term wigger?
13:49
<
yorickpeterse >
ugh, hold on
13:49
<
yorickpeterse >
before I look like some racist douchebag
13:50
<
yorickpeterse >
SFW
13:50
<
bnagy >
yeah I know the term :)
13:50
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13:50
<
yorickpeterse >
either way, no, I won't rap
13:50
<
yorickpeterse >
because I'd probably be terrible at it
13:51
<
bnagy >
yeah token ring with a 500ms ping scans really badly
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14:20
<
stef1a >
I'm getting the error in `all_possible_permutations': no block given (yield) (LocalJumpError) at line 22; here is my code:
http://sprunge.us/dQij I'm confused because I
*am* passing a block to all_possible_permutations. Why is the error appearing?
14:21
<
stef1a >
sorry -- no linums there -- the line is yield(prefix) in all_possible_permutations
14:21
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14:21
<
stef1a >
I would think the error would be referenced on the last line, not the yield(prefix) line
14:23
<
judofyr >
stef1a: you're not passing the block in the recursive call to all_possible_permutations
14:23
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14:24
<
judofyr >
after: for i in (0...len)
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14:24
<
stef1a >
judofyr: oh, duh. thank you. :-)
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<
stef1a >
i know another reason it wasn't working as i expected... i was compiling an out-dated file! ho-ho!
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15:13
<
yorickpeterse >
So I stumbled upon a nigerian forum. No offense to the people from that country but holy shit this is funny
15:13
<
yorickpeterse >
totally related to Ruby
15:15
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15:15
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15:15
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15:16
<
ndrst_ >
yorickpeterse: what where you searching for when you found this?
15:16
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15:16
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15:16
<
yorickpeterse >
I'm getting call spammed from an unknown number so I was like "Fuckit, I'll see if there's anything remotely useful on Google"
15:17
<
yorickpeterse >
I do have the number though, because one time the pricks didn't hide it. However, calling back yields "This number does not exist" and my provider hasn't replied yet
15:17
<
ndrst_ >
hmm sounds like a VoIP scam
15:17
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15:17
<
yorickpeterse >
I suppose I should ask the NSA
15:17
<
ndrst_ >
they should now. or the british
15:18
<
yorickpeterse >
yeah, or just our own government
15:18
<
ndrst_ >
wait aren't the netherlands also quite good at that? :D
15:18
<
yorickpeterse >
Exactly
15:18
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: you know the most funny part?
15:18
<
whitequark >
the number is not actually hidden
15:19
<
whitequark >
the relevant GSM packet just has a bit saying "don't show the number on the headset"
15:19
<
whitequark >
so your phone promptly lies to you.
15:19
<
yorickpeterse >
Yeah I figured that it was similar to hidden Wifi SSIDs
15:20
<
yorickpeterse >
hence I was curious to see if I could figure the number out
15:20
<
yorickpeterse >
given the number would exist I'd just play the same game
15:20
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15:20
<
yorickpeterse >
call them every five minutes and just play death metal or something
15:20
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: oh, that would be hard
15:20
<
yorickpeterse >
How so?
15:21
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15:21
<
yorickpeterse >
unless it's something provider specific where there's no standard to get the shit
15:21
<
whitequark >
because the govt and GSM module vendors kind of conspire to do everything to not let you inside your phone
15:21
<
whitequark >
basically
15:21
<
yorickpeterse >
well, the phone bit itself isn't too hard
15:21
<
whitequark >
in particular it never leaves the baseband processor and there's nothing you can do with BP to run your own code on it
15:21
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15:21
<
whitequark >
or reconfigure it or whatever
15:21
<
yorickpeterse >
hmmm
15:21
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15:22
<
whitequark >
tivoization, etc.
15:22
<
yorickpeterse >
Intercepting the traffic might be an option, but that means I have to get dedicated hardware
15:22
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15:22
<
yorickpeterse >
compared to 10 bucks for a new SIM and phone number
15:22
<
whitequark >
yes, you could get that with a good SDR
15:22
<
whitequark >
$2k or so
15:22
<
whitequark >
you can also get motorola c260
15:22
<
yorickpeterse >
eh?
15:22
<
yorickpeterse >
Why a c260?
15:23
<
whitequark >
oh, c123
15:23
<
whitequark >
quite possibly the only free and working baseband software
15:23
<
yorickpeterse >
hmmm
15:23
<
yorickpeterse >
damn it, now I'm interested
15:24
<
yorickpeterse >
I suppose this is the part where knowing secret service agents would come in handy :>
15:24
<
andrewvos >
Current status: Generating an ERD :( ):
15:24
<
whitequark >
secret service agents know about nothing of this stuff
15:24
<
whitequark >
they use prebuilt hw and sw
15:24
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15:24
<
whitequark >
the specifications are in fact open
15:24
<
yorickpeterse >
They have access to all of it apparently :>
15:24
<
yorickpeterse >
oh wait, just metadata of course
15:24
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15:25
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15:25
<
whitequark >
but there aren't a lot of chips you can readily gut and reuse for your purposes.
15:25
<
yorickpeterse >
Wouldn't sniffing the network similar to Wifi would work?
15:25
<
whitequark >
and while making your own baseband out of an FPGA is surely possible, it's rather daunting
15:25
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: wifi card lets you do so.
15:25
<
whitequark >
gsm baseband is specifically designed to prevent such actions.
15:25
<
yorickpeterse >
From what I've read it's not exactly that hard to sniff data
15:25
<
whitequark >
because, in part, the gsm network is insanely fragile. it is quite a miracle that it works most of the time.
15:26
<
whitequark >
yorickpeterse: source?
15:26
<
yorickpeterse >
In fact, I recall some pretty big news making the headlines about it a while back
15:26
<
yorickpeterse >
but I can't remember what exactly it was about
15:26
<
whitequark >
well, it depends on your skillset
15:26
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15:26
<
whitequark >
I think that with a moderate amount of bucks and/or several weeks (months) of work I could reliably do so
15:27
<
whitequark >
if you remember more details about that sniffing, I prolly could explain it
15:27
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15:27
<
yorickpeterse >
I suppose I've always wanted to be a "tru h4cker" so this is my chance to shine
15:28
<
yorickpeterse >
or I could just get back to doing actual work for now
15:28
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15:30
<
andrewvos >
Yeah that would be nice, before you get us all on some sort of list
15:30
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15:30
<
andrewvos >
"List of nerds on ruby-lang"
15:30
<
yorickpeterse >
Implying you already aren't on one
15:30
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15:30
<
yorickpeterse >
there's one over there ---->
15:30
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15:30
<
yorickpeterse >
(at least in my case)
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<
pea53 >
drbrain: are you lurking about in here? I have a question regarding the ruby Logger class
17:08
<
pea53 >
drbrain: was hoping you might have some insight
17:08
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<
pea53 >
it "feels" like that code should return `false` and not true
17:13
<
pea53 >
the documentation says the method should return true if successful and false otherwise, but there is no code path in there that returns false
17:13
<
pea53 >
and not writing a log message sure does not seem like success
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<
andrewvos >
Well hello there, internets.
*winks seductively*
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20:58
<
andrewvos >
Is that cause you're happy to see me, or are you going to release something?
20:58
<
yorickpeterse >
both!
20:58
<
zenspider >
andrewvos: I don't
_think_ I have any releases today... so it must be the former
20:59
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20:59
<
zenspider >
nope. no releases. all clean
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21:36
<
sandbags >
this is about the only part i hate about a new OSX machine... all the crap getting Ruby & MySql working again
21:36
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21:37
<
zenspider >
and I doubt we can talk you off of mysql...
21:38
<
sandbags >
zenspider: i'm switching to PG for some projects but what a client is already using is a more difficult issue
21:38
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21:39
<
zenspider >
how'd you install sqlite?
21:39
<
sandbags >
homebrew
21:39
<
zenspider >
kk. good.
21:39
<
zenspider >
find /usr/local -name mysql.h
21:40
<
zenspider >
just to be anal
21:40
<
sandbags >
i thought i gisted it
21:40
<
sandbags >
ah, no just where it is
21:40
<
sandbags >
it's in /usr/local/include symlinked to the Cellar path in the gist
21:40
<
xuser >
install a linux, easier ;)
21:40
<
xuser >
err a linux vm
21:40
<
zenspider >
oh. you're right. I just went straight to the error
21:41
<
zenspider >
xuser: or you could help. if not...
21:41
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21:41
<
xuser >
that's a good suggestion actually ;)
21:42
<
zenspider >
some googling suggests using: gem install mysql2 -- --srcdir=/usr/local/mysql/include
21:42
<
xuser >
even a better one since his mysql will most probably run linux in production
21:42
<
sandbags >
zenspider: i think i've tried that but i'll try it again
21:42
<
zenspider >
which is a listed option... the one you're using isn't
21:42
<
sandbags >
zenspider: ?
21:43
<
zenspider >
--with-mysql-config doesn't look like it takes an arg
21:43
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21:43
<
zenspider >
in the help output
21:43
<
sandbags >
ah, i wonder
21:43
<
sandbags >
i did try it without
21:43
<
sandbags >
but maybe i made some other error
21:43
<
sandbags >
yes, i did.. same error
21:43
<
zenspider >
I'm guessing you're using a ruby that isn't under /usr/local, right?
21:44
<
sandbags >
i'm using rbenv
21:44
<
zenspider >
well...
21:44
<
sandbags >
so ruby is actually some kind of shim
21:44
<
sandbags >
it's /usr/local/var/rbenv/shims/ruby
21:44
<
zenspider >
it's in /usr/local/var/rbenv...
21:44
<
zenspider >
so... I'm gonna say that's still a no
21:44
<
sandbags >
i hadn't realised this was a problem
21:46
<
zenspider >
Finally came across this post from ALoR and installed a fresh version through homebrew - however - be sure to follow ALL the instructions from homebrew! I missed a few steps and wasted another hour tracking down that problem - here are those instructions:
http://stackoverflow.com/a/11061487/1241271
21:46
<
zenspider >
After MySQL was successfully installed, I ran: sudo gem install mysql2 and it worked like a charm.
21:47
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21:47
<
sandbags >
interesting, brew install mysql doesn't print out those instructions any more so far as i know
21:47
<
sandbags >
just the last part
21:47
<
sandbags >
about using mysql.server or (in the updated instructions) using launchctl
21:47
<
erikh >
mysql2 only works with 5.5 and up
21:48
<
erikh >
not sure if that's what you were having trouble with
21:48
<
zenspider >
could be old
21:48
<
zenspider >
I'm not willing to install mysql to help you further... because then I'd have mysql installed. :P
21:48
<
erikh >
5.1 *will not work*.
21:48
<
sandbags >
i'm using 5.6.12
21:48
<
sandbags >
zenspider: okay, thanks for trying though
21:48
<
sandbags >
maybe i should go back to using rvm
21:48
<
sandbags >
i don't see how this can be an rbenv issue
21:49
<
sandbags >
since one assumes that ruby can either find a file right in front of it, or it can't
21:49
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21:49
<
zenspider >
yaeh. the homebrew recipe runs the mysql_install_db step itself
21:49
<
zenspider >
tho... it does not start it up. I doubt that's the problem here
21:50
<
sandbags >
no i think not, it pretty clearly seems to be failing to find mysql.h
21:50
<
zenspider >
did the srcdir option not work?
21:51
<
sandbags >
not with any value of srcdir i can think of, no
21:51
<
sandbags >
i tried /usr/local/include, /usr/local/Cellar/mysql/5.6.12, and /usr/local/Cellar/mysql/5.6.12/include
21:51
<
sandbags >
which seemed to fit the pattern of the examples i've seen
21:52
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21:53
<
drbrain >
I think you want --with-mysql-dir=/usr/local/Cellar/mysql/5.6.12
21:53
<
sandbags >
drbrain: thanks but, no dice ... same error
21:55
<
sandbags >
i should point out... i do
*have* a Mysql server there and it works ;-)
21:55
<
sandbags >
(for whatever value of 'works' one wishes to apply to Mysql)
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21:58
<
sandbags >
well if i hoped symlinking /usr/local/mysql into Cellar would help ... i was roughly disabused of this notion
21:58
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21:58
<
zenspider >
sandbags: can you verify that /usr/local/bin/mysql_config exists? I'm looking at the extconf
21:58
<
zenspider >
it doesn't care what you send it
21:59
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21:59
<
sandbags >
it exists and works
21:59
<
sandbags >
if you look at my original gist
21:59
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21:59
<
sandbags >
i think i print out --include using it
21:59
<
zenspider >
/usr/local/mysql/bin/mysql_config too. it just looks through a list of hardcoded paths
21:59
<
sandbags >
ah, that wouldn't have worked, but should now that i've setup that symlink
22:00
<
sandbags >
i'll try again
22:00
<
zenspider >
this code... I can barely read it
22:00
<
sandbags >
damn, no
22:00
<
sandbags >
i have symlinked it so that /usr/local/mysql/bin/mysql_config is there
22:01
<
sandbags >
i hoped, from reading extconf.rb, that just setting up the symlink would fix it since /usr/local/mysql appeared to be a hardcoded path
22:01
<
sandbags >
have_header is presumably coming from mkmf
22:02
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22:03
<
zenspider >
yeah. it is.
22:03
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22:04
<
zenspider >
what's the output from mysql_config --libs_r and/or mysql_config --libs ?
22:04
<
sandbags >
the docs are a little inscrutable on the subject of how have_header actually works
22:04
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22:04
<
zenspider >
oh yeah. mkmf is a fucking black hole
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22:06
<
sandbags >
this is so damn infuriating
22:06
<
zenspider >
that looks sane
22:06
<
zenspider >
fuck I hate reading mkmf
22:06
<
zenspider >
you're a jerk
22:07
<
sandbags >
well you're not the first to say it but what did i do this time?
22:07
<
zenspider >
made me read mkmf
22:07
<
sandbags >
well technically I didn't
*make* you ;-)
22:08
<
sandbags >
however, if it makes you feel any better I am also reading it
22:08
<
zenspider >
does /usr/local/var/rbenv/versions/1.9.3-p429/lib/ruby/gems/1.9.1/gems/mysql2-0.3.11/ext/mysql2/gem_make.out have the command used for the failure?
22:10
<
sandbags >
modulo whatever i have put after the "--"
22:10
<
sandbags >
oh i like the alias for try_header
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perry >
drbrain, your capp gem uses some sort of c extension and can't be used with jruby :(
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drbrain >
perry: libpcap is a C library, yes
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ericwood >
if it matches /^lib\w+/ it's a C library most likely
22:15
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perry >
it's gonna take forever to process 20gb of tcp dumps
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drbrain >
perry: there's jNetPcap
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sandbags >
zenspider: can you think how to log output from mkmf?
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drbrain >
sandbags: it's in mkmf.log inside the ext build dir
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22:18
<
sandbags >
drbrain: thanks
22:19
<
sandbags >
ah, there's new stuff in here
22:19
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perry >
drbrain, thanks, but I will just keep this running with your gem :)
22:19
<
sandbags >
cc1: error: unrecognized command line option "-Wno-null-conversion"
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sandbags >
now i saw one google hit talking about errors with compiler options but it looked pretty outlandish
22:20
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zenspider >
that sounds like you're trying to use a different C compiler than what was used for ruby
22:21
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sandbags >
hrmm... yes
22:21
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22:21
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sandbags >
shit, of course
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22:21
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zenspider >
your gcc is a symlink to llvm's C, yes?
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22:21
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drbrain >
perry: another option: use tcpdump to split up the 20Gb into smaller chunks you can process in parallel with capp
22:21
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drbrain >
… as separate CRuby processes
22:21
<
drbrain >
(not sure if that fits your workflow or not)
22:22
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sandbags >
to compile 1.9.3 on 10.8 you have to install a different compiler as the LLVM compiler that comes with Xcode doesn't work
22:22
<
sandbags >
AFAICS that hasn't changed since the last time i installed 1.9.3
22:22
<
sandbags >
i wonder why i'm not bumping into this all the time on my other machine
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22:24
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zenspider >
sandbags: homebrew has a keg'd gcc you can install
22:24
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sandbags >
zenspider: yeah, it's what i used to build ruby
22:24
<
zenspider >
apple-gcc42
22:24
<
sandbags >
apple-gcc42
22:25
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sandbags >
i guess i had assumed Ruby would remember which compiler built it
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22:25
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sandbags >
possibly there is something i have configured on the other machine when i first installed 1.9
22:25
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zenspider >
it does. doesn't mean mkmf uses it tho. could also be that your paths are set up so /usr/bin/gcc gets hit first
22:26
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zenspider >
I dunno...but at least you're on the right track now
22:26
<
sandbags >
and i've had the pleasure of reading mkmf.rb
22:27
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sandbags >
the odd thing is, i've built and rebuilt mysql2 on my old machine whcih uses the same setup, apple-gcc42
22:27
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sandbags >
via homebrew
22:27
<
sandbags >
i've never had to fuck around trying to tell it which compiler to use
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sandbags >
but maybe it's a path issue as you suggest
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sandbags >
hrmm.. which -a gcc on both machines reports the same /usr/bin/gcc
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22:30
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zenspider >
sandbags: SOMETHING is different between your current machine and the other.. maybe if you figure that out ...
22:30
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zenspider >
why the fuck aren't you just rsyncing the shit over from the machine that works?
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22:31
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sandbags >
beacuse it's a 6 year old machine full of cruft
22:32
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zenspider >
fair. prolly differs in architecture too
22:32
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sandbags >
CC=/usr/local/bin/gcc-4.2 gem install mysql2 -- --with-mysql-config
22:33
<
sandbags >
no dice also
22:34
<
sandbags >
hrmm... it appears to be referencing "gcc" directly
22:34
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sandbags >
in the mkmf.log
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sandbags >
hrmm... it appears not to be running the code that should expand $CC
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drbrain >
I think it always uses the CC that ruby was compiled with: ruby -rrbconfig -e 'p RbConfig::CONFIG["CC"]'
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sandbags >
that's a puzzle since that reports "gcc" and not "gcc-4.2"
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sandbags >
i think i might just fuck this ruby install, go back to rvm and see if i have more luck
22:44
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zenspider >
sandbags: I don't remember if this will work, but try CC=gcc-4.2 gem...
22:44
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sandbags >
zenspider: thanks but that's what i've been trying
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sandbags >
without a path
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22:45
<
sandbags >
same deal
22:45
<
sandbags >
i guess the Ruby folks haven't figured out how to get it to compile properly with the LLVM compiler Apple ship now?
22:51
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sandbags >
okay tossing a match into this ruby install and going back to rvm in the hope that will "just work"
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23:00
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sandbags >
interesting, build ruby 1.9 with RVM and "ruby -rrbconfig -e 'p RbConfig::CONFIG["CC"]'" reports /usr/local/bin/gcc-4.2
23:00
<
sandbags >
AND mysql2 still doesn't fucking build
23:01
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sandbags >
same error about the compiler flag being unrecognised
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23:08
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sandbags >
zenspider: okay so i have cheated, as recommended by one of the google hits, removed the two offending compiler options
23:08
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sandbags >
and the gem compiles okay
23:08
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sandbags >
and, for a basic test of #connect and #query
23:08
<
sandbags >
seems to work
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sandbags >
well that's a couple of hours of my life i'd like back
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23:24
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sandbags >
drbrain, zenspider: many thanks for your help
23:24
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drbrain >
sandbags: yay
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