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<igalic>
In my puppet.conf I had set environment = $environment
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<r0bgleeson>
igalic: that wouldn't directly cause infinite recursion
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<r0bgleeson>
yorickpeterse: btw stoned or high is the same in english :) it describes two different types of high, one(stoned) usually induced by indica and the other(high) induced by a sativa.
<yorickpeterse>
ah
<r0bgleeson>
when i'm bored or waiting around the useless trivia flows out of me
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<yorickpeterse>
get back to work slacker
<r0bgleeson>
day off :)
<r0bgleeson>
thanksgiving
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<yorickpeterse>
pfff, Americanos
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<r0bgleeson>
yeah, it seems bigger than xmas
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<lianj>
r0bgleeson: thanks for the premium education
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<r0bgleeson>
lianj: yw
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<yorickpeterse>
grrrr rubygems-bundler
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<yorickpeterse>
why that comes with RVM I have no idea. Keep your disgusting Ruby hands off my executable shebangs already
<ddd>
mpapis added it as a workaround 'bundle exec' needing to be called
<ddd>
but, as he and i have discussed, i don't think it should be included. i was overriden
<yorickpeterse>
Because fucking up shebangs is worth not having to run `bundle exec`
<yorickpeterse>
Now I have to rebuild a bunch of packages and re-generate shebangs thanks to me not remembering to remove that Gem after having updated to p484
<yorickpeterse>
great
* ddd
raises his hands in "don't kill the messenger" style
<yorickpeterse>
Oh, I'm not going to hurt you for it :)
<yorickpeterse>
My solution is simple: ditch RVM in the near future
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<ddd>
add rvm_without_gems="rubygems-bundler" to ~/.rvmrc
<yorickpeterse>
oh neat, that should save me some trouble
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<yorickpeterse>
do I have to export it or just set it as is?
<ddd>
and remove rubygems-bundler following the directions he's got on the site. not sure if you have to run the little script prior to removal anymore or not. I automatically add that on install so I've forgotten
<ddd>
just set it as it is
<yorickpeterse>
I already removed it, I've done this too many times before
<yorickpeterse>
currently generating pristine gems + shebangs, ugh
<yorickpeterse>
this will take a while
<ddd>
cool. yeah just pop that line in global rvmrc and remove rubygems-bundler. shoujld be good to go from then on
<ddd>
yeah :/
<r0bgleeson>
ddd: it is fine as a default for me if it isn't an invasive solution.
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<yorickpeterse>
we already had to take out a frontend because of this bollocks
<r0bgleeson>
chruby and ruby-install, no regrets so far
<yorickpeterse>
I know, but we still have RVM in $PROD
<r0bgleeson>
it's also small and simple enough to not be overly confusing
<yorickpeterse>
not that easy to ditch over night
<r0bgleeson>
yeah i wouldnt recommend rvm on a server ever
<ddd>
notepad++ vs. visual studio. both do their jobs well, just one is designed for minimalism, the other the cadillac.
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<yorickpeterse>
oh derp, there's a --only-executables option
<yorickpeterse>
that should do it faster
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<ddd>
same with chruby vs rvm
<r0bgleeson>
ddd: kind of, yeah, there is no reason you can't have a cadillic built of decomposable parts that you can offer as individual components
<ddd>
r0bgleeson: which is what rvm2 will do
<ddd>
rvm1 didn't have that goal in mind really. being fixed in 2
<havenwood>
+1 chruby
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<havenwood>
ruby-install, chruby and chgems make a nice combo
<r0bgleeson>
i will see in rvm2 but the approach is like rails, i dont think it's ever going to be better unless it stops trying to be monolithic and doing too much. RVM is chruby and ruby-install in one. i may only want chruby, and use tool X to solve the other problem
<ddd>
as always, suggestions are always welcome.
<r0bgleeson>
it doesn't lend well to being usable within a diverse ecosystem
<ddd>
r0bgleeson: yeah, i've had this discussion with wayne and michal as well :)
<ddd>
its gotten *too* big
<r0bgleeson>
it certainly has, i have lost faith
<r0bgleeson>
but i appreciate what mpasis does tremondously
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<ddd>
need a way to modularize and allow smorgabor(d|g) approach to RVM's complete module set
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<r0bgleeson>
mpapis*
<ddd>
yeah he does a lot of hard work, no doubt there
<yorickpeterse>
I don't get the focus on *also* managing Python and all the other crap though
<ddd>
RVM2 is supposed to address this issue specifically. Here's to seeing how that goes
<yorickpeterse>
Unix philosophy, etc
<ddd>
managing python?
<ddd>
did he add something while I was gone?
<havenwood>
ddd: i like the idea of ditching Shell for Ruby, i think that is a winning proposition :)
<yorickpeterse>
I recall reading something about RVM2 also managing versions of other languages
<ddd>
havenwood: yep
<ddd>
yorickpeterse: Oh i think that was more of a "and these techniques could be applied to"
<r0bgleeson>
havenwood: it depends on the trade offs you want to make and what extra features you want to provide
<ddd>
the primary focus has always been and always will be ruby
<yorickpeterse>
ddd: could be
<r0bgleeson>
havenwood: shell is spoken everywhere with or without ruby
<ddd>
exactly which is why shell was chosen
<ddd>
well, originally
<r0bgleeson>
the approach in rails3 was to modularize, and all rails3 & up is, "monolithic by default"
<ddd>
hhaha, went looking for a lighter and found a thumb drive that I've been missing for a couple months. gotta love easter eggs
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<r0bgleeson>
and not many people move from there, because that's what rails has always been, opinionated to the point of not being able to see out if its little world
<ddd>
r0bgleeson: yeah, thats why i said, we shall see. i know the intention is fully there. however, intention doesn't always meet up with actuation
<yorickpeterse>
Clearly RVM2 should be written in Go
<yorickpeterse>
static binaries run everywhere
<havenwood>
r0bgleeson: for sure less portable, but to maintain that size of codebase i think worth doing it in Ruby, focusing on systems where *a Ruby* is presumed
<yorickpeterse>
Write once, compile twice, run everywhere
<ddd>
plus, letting go of 'isms' sometimes can be a bitch and hampers moving forward
<yorickpeterse>
segfault everywhere
<ddd>
yorickpeterse: hahhah
<ddd>
well RVM can be condensed a lot too because you can revamp a lot of stuff into real classes etc.
<r0bgleeson>
havenwood: yeah, for RVM feature set i think it probably makes sense but if you want to stay simple and portable i'd remain with shell
<ddd>
can also wack out a lot of convolutions the shell makes you go through just to marry up this or that internal
<yorickpeterse>
This all would've been so much easier if Linux package managers weren't fucking retarded
<ddd>
yorickpeterse: oh no fucking doubt!
<yorickpeterse>
Surely there can ever only be *one* version of package X right!
<r0bgleeson>
yorickpeterse: but then you need to solve the problem for OSX
<havenwood>
r0bgleeson: agreed, and in reality Ruby isn't always already installed
<yorickpeterse>
r0bgleeson: OS X isn't a real OS
<r0bgleeson>
pkgsrc/netbsd is supposedely portable though
<ddd>
bullshit
<r0bgleeson>
you could run it on on OSX/BSD/Linux
<yorickpeterse>
and OS X has Homebrew, Macports, etc
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<yorickpeterse>
those should support the same concepts
<r0bgleeson>
OSX doesnt have a good package manager
<r0bgleeson>
homebrew is a git repo
<r0bgleeson>
it's used that way as well
<r0bgleeson>
dependency X is updated and then package Y no longer has deps met
<yorickpeterse>
I'm well aware of the Homebrew nightmares
<ddd>
same
<yorickpeterse>
Either way, on my Linux it would be nice if there was actually ruby-1.9.3, ruby-2.0, etc, opposed to just "ruby"
<havenwood>
brew insisting on single-user system is kinda bizarre, but it works well enough so I use it - macports and fink seem fine but lesser used
<yorickpeterse>
and since it's rolling release that basically means "lol fuck you here new version"
<ddd>
hated that
<yorickpeterse>
whereas on Debian/CentOS it's more like "lol fuck you here super old version"
<r0bgleeson>
arch is good for a decent ruby install
<ddd>
thanks! you just busted two other projects that were just working fine, thanks to your rolling updates
<r0bgleeson>
its left untouched
<havenwood>
Fedora 19's Ruby installation seems pretty nice too, but yeah it usually seems to be arch that is most on the ball
<ddd>
i'm up in the air on whether i like arch or not
<ddd>
bougyman swears by it. i'm just not personally convinced
<r0bgleeson>
i loved arch so much but pacman -Syu broke my machine more times than i like(only twice or so)
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<yorickpeterse>
ddd: Arch is nice for <= 1 machine
<ddd>
hehe
<yorickpeterse>
r0bgleeson: that only happens when you don't actually read the news or run stuff with --force
<havenwood>
any love for Gentoo?
<r0bgleeson>
that's not true, although this was almost four years ago
<yorickpeterse>
Haven't had any issues with updates since the systemd move
<yorickpeterse>
systemd was a pain
<r0bgleeson>
or maybe even five years now
<yorickpeterse>
though it beats sysvinit
<yorickpeterse>
and upstart
<Rylee>
havenwood, <3
<r0bgleeson>
yorickpeterse: my problem was some crap about libc being relinked wrongly
<r0bgleeson>
it's too annoying to use as a system you need to use to get stuff done unless you're fine with not doing an upgrade during weekdays or just being cautious about it, maybe it has changed a lot by now
<yorickpeterse>
I'm having more issues with the Linux kernel itself than Arch
<yorickpeterse>
or the lack of proper wifi drivers to be exact
<r0bgleeson>
yeah, hardware is usually a pain in the ass on open source OS's
<ddd>
sorry, had to split for a 2nd. marshalling the kids for the wife :)
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<r0bgleeson>
np
<yorickpeterse>
I could probably solve my issues by putting in a different wifi chip but I refuse by principle
<bougyman>
ddd: I don't swear by it, per-se.
<yorickpeterse>
I want Intel to fucking fix their shit instead
<bougyman>
I just really like the cutting edgeness
<ddd>
havenwood: on my part, no, no love for gentoo. at all
<bougyman>
it's definitely not for everyone.
<bougyman>
and certainly not for production servers.
<r0bgleeson>
yorickpeterse: yeah it's annoying, if you google a bit beforehand you can research hardware that is openly spec'ed and usually has good driver support
<ddd>
yeah you have mentioned that before
<ddd>
i do clearly remember you saying that during some of our pairings
<yorickpeterse>
r0bgleeson: usually you'll end up with decades old laptopts in that case
<yorickpeterse>
I've actually reached a point where I'm considering fixing iwlwifi myself, even if that requires me to hang myself
<r0bgleeson>
yorickpeterse: maybe, it's about supporting a free platform right? :) sacrifice must be made.
<yorickpeterse>
Free doesn't equal shit
<yorickpeterse>
nor should it
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<ddd>
yorickpeterse: per the wifi drivers, i find a LOT of linux distros have that problem
<r0bgleeson>
by free i mean an open platform that everyone can contribute to
<r0bgleeson>
at least in theory
<yorickpeterse>
ddd: that's correct, they all use the same underlying poop
<r0bgleeson>
it's not an airy-fairy notion at all
<yorickpeterse>
It's 2013 and I can't reliably use 11n
<yorickpeterse>
because it shits up every 30 minutes
<yorickpeterse>
The common "fix"? "LOL just disable 11n"
* yorickpeterse
shakes fist
<ddd>
take xubuntu for example. 12.04 installed fine, used the bcmwl just fine, but the upgrade to 13.10 broke it thoroughly. it couldn't figure out what it needed to properly rebuild the driver (like sources and headers) which is done on every kernel upgrade, and totally destroyed my setup
<r0bgleeson>
i'm a huge believer in an open platform and I do dislike anything that tries to monopolize a market or a piece of knowledge, a la Apple, Microsoft, Intel, ....
<ddd>
i had to wipe and just start from 13.10 because wifi is my only access. i wasn't going to go drive 22 miles to get a cat5 cable at that time. was just easier to wipe the OS and reinstall straight up
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<yorickpeterse>
heh, Ubuntu
<yorickpeterse>
and its flavours
<yorickpeterse>
Canonical kinda blew their reputation out of the window
<ddd>
the problem with the upgrade i'm not sure if its a distro problem perse or an understanding of what's needed to get the driver going in the first place by the bcmwl maintainer. ie, checking if the needed packages are there, and if not installing them off the install media
<yorickpeterse>
you're missing a critical part here
<ddd>
oh come on, don't reduce it down to that
<yorickpeterse>
That's not always an option, nor is it always possible to replace parts
<ddd>
what yorickpeterse said
<r0bgleeson>
it can be an option if you want it to be
<r0bgleeson>
don't buy a macbook to run linux on it
* ddd
utters a 'guh' and leaves it at that
<yorickpeterse>
"So I bought this car, it's fucking shit and just exploded" "Then don't buy that brand!"
<yorickpeterse>
CAPTAIN HINDSIGHT TO THE RESCUE
<ddd>
hahaha
<ddd>
+1
<r0bgleeson>
maybe i don't see it but if you feel strongly about it, don't buy hardware from companies who don't make it easy for people to write drivers for
<yorickpeterse>
There's like 1 computer that actually works out of the box
<r0bgleeson>
it's not meant as hindsight, it's meant as how do i not do that in the future
<yorickpeterse>
it's some shitty Thinkpad from 10 years ago
<r0bgleeson>
to say "i can't possibly do it, it's not an option" is a complete lie
<ddd>
r0bgleeson: I have no machines left. hard times wiped out my machine base. someone was extremely awesome and lent me a notebook quasi-permanently. it uses broadcom. its no machine(s) or use this.
<yorickpeterse>
meanwhile
<yorickpeterse>
history | grep 'gem uninstall rubygems-bundler' | wc -l
<yorickpeterse>
9
<yorickpeterse>
lol
<ddd>
i'll use this thank you, problems or not. sometimes you have no choice.
<ddd>
but that doesn't mean you don't discuss the problems that surface or their causes
<r0bgleeson>
ddd: absolutely, that's quite a different situation, but if you are lucky enough to be able to afford a computer you can make a decision with your money to not support those companies
<ddd>
r0bgleeson: and in that i'd generally agree
<yorickpeterse>
That assumes the info about support is available beforehand
<yorickpeterse>
which in many cases isn't true
<ddd>
however sometimes even in that there are time constraints on getting something into operation, and there's always the *knowing* that this or that driver is a problem.
<ddd>
yorickpeterse: exactly
<r0bgleeson>
i've found articles/recommendations for Linux-friendly hardware on linux forums
<r0bgleeson>
esp the arch forums
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<yorickpeterse>
e.g. my T520 is heralded as generally having good Linux support
<ddd>
but a lot of that info is buried and not readily accessible. it means reading 3rd party 3rd handed reports
<yorickpeterse>
The wifi is hilariously bad
<ddd>
thats not always feasible. what i'm saying is its not a simple cut-and-dried situation
<yorickpeterse>
you don't see that until you seriously start digging because it's bugging you
<ddd>
exactly
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<ddd>
r0bgleeson has a valid point, just there's no hard and fast to it. so can't position it as a hard set
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<yorickpeterse>
There we go, all Rubies/executables pristine without rubygems-bundler crap
<ddd>
nice
<ddd>
i had to clean that out last night.
<ddd>
thankfully i only had to do it on a single ruby
<ddd>
i'm all set going forward :)
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<yorickpeterse>
8 Rubies here
<yorickpeterse>
figured I'd do all of them to be sure
<ddd>
good move
<r0bgleeson>
i installed jruby a few days ago
<r0bgleeson>
how do i make it not be slow as shit?
<yorickpeterse>
r0bgleeson: install rbx :>
<r0bgleeson>
the boot times on it are nuts
<yorickpeterse>
What, on jruby?
<r0bgleeson>
yeah
<ddd>
r0bgleeson: jruby's spinup time is significant in development
<yorickpeterse>
that's the JVM for you
<r0bgleeson>
rbx is fine
<yorickpeterse>
there's some thing like Zeus or w/e that keeps it alive
<yorickpeterse>
don't remember the name though
<ddd>
i default to jruby myself, the spinup kills me :)
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<r0bgleeson>
yeah, nailgun i believe, which is probably similar in idea to zeus
<r0bgleeson>
zeus preloads the rails environment in a process
<ddd>
yorickpeterse: nailgun if you modify your jruby calls to include --ng once its running
<ddd>
zeus is for rails
<r0bgleeson>
so you can probably preload the JVM
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<yorickpeterse>
rbx bootup times could use some extra tweaking too
<r0bgleeson>
the problem is i have no idea how to configure nailgun for jruby
<ddd>
yeah run nailgun then add --ng to every jruby exec
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<r0bgleeson>
is there a JRUBYOPTS or something like that?
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. run that before/after the entire suite, safe yourself *a lot* of time
<r0bgleeson>
clever :)
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<r0bgleeson>
the scope is probably much more than neccessary though
<r0bgleeson>
it's unlikely every model in your application is being tested
<yorickpeterse>
Then just remove stuff explicitly where needed
<r0bgleeson>
yeah, I agree
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<ddd>
i've a couple projectrs with database_cleaner. time to C&P i see
<yorickpeterse>
if your tests depend on it they might break
<yorickpeterse>
e.g. tests that assume N amount of rows to be returned
<ddd>
yeah was on my way to check that after I put the line in mny buffer
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<ddd>
cd into your project, wait 30s while rvm loads jruby and bundler makes sure all gems are installed. hate the wait, but i hate not being sure all the gems on a particular project are in damn it
<ddd>
oh well, lose to gain i guess :)
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<ddd>
yorickpeterse: what are you running in before(:each) blocks? I see what you're replacing before(:suite)
<ddd>
how did you replace .start/.clean ?
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<ddd>
ActiveRecord::Base.subclasses.map(&:delete_all) replaces DatabaseCleaner.strategy = :transaction ; DatabaseCleaner.clean(:truncate) but what about the :each?
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<ddd>
i must be asking something uber-obvious
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<yorickpeterse>
ddd: those two lines go in before(:suite)
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<r0bgleeson>
igalic: indirectly it might have
<r0bgleeson>
it wouldn't be the source of infinite recursion though
<r0bgleeson>
doesn't matter so much :)
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<ddd>
ok. who controls 'gem'? are problems reported to ruby-lang or to rubygems.org (for failures gem bin related)
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<ddd>
also docs for various gems are seeming to be moved to using darkfish for rdoc building. so if you have a doc build issue, who would you report it to?
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<apeiros>
ddd: drbrain is the man to talk to
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<havenwood>
ddd: #rubygems
<apeiros>
not sure whether for darkfish too
<ddd>
ok. he can tell me the guidelines for who owns what and under what conditions you would a problem to which?
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<ddd>
havenwood: ok. its the bundling of gem with ruby that makes me unsure who something gets filed with, or who to approach to acertain the problem owner