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<RickHull>
Hi, I was in here yesterday asking about remote execution / automation frameworks. main requirements: SSH, output capture, failure handling (retries, alerting, etc)
<RickHull>
I looked at Capistrano, but it seems geared to orchestrating identical deploys across multiple servers
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<RickHull>
i care about that only somewhat
<RickHull>
chef might work. chef-solo or server
<RickHull>
i am looking mainly at fabric (python, gasp!) at this point
<RickHull>
i'm sure I'm overlooking several candidate projects. can anyone make some suggestions
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<RickHull>
apeiros: surely you have an opinion here ;)
<RickHull>
right now i'm using bash and, truly, FML
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<RickHull>
ddfreyne: maybe?
<RickHull>
hm, what time is it in europe?
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<RickHull>
inkjet: i know you must have something for me :)
<RickHull>
ljarvis: ^
<RickHull>
zenspider: looked at vlad, seems too geared for deployment rather than more arbitrary sysadmin stuff
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<RickHull>
banister: ?
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<RickHull>
ReinH: should I use puppet? ;)
<ReinH>
RickHull: maybe ansible?
<RickHull>
it's on the edge of my radar. looking into it now, thx
<RickHull>
ReinH: still with puppetlabs?
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<RickHull>
note, i was a regular here under a different nick 2005-2010 or so. stopped being regular and then switched nicks in 2011 or 2012?
<RickHull>
spurts of regularity since 2011 :)
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<RickHull>
it's nice to see so many familiar nicks still here. i won't name them all :)
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<RickHull>
is there really such a gap in ruby ecosystem for what i have described? seems like an opportunity to write a flexible, bottom-up library that would then be consumed by some framework
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<RickHull>
most of our infra is now on chef and Fog. i'd rather stick with ruby for that fact, and also my own comfort level. however, i'm not very comfortable with chef, for doing greenfield stuff anyway. Fog is fine, using AWS and RS backends
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<RickHull>
if there really is "remote execution" gap, I'm happy to try to fill it. secondary requirements include abstracting ssh sessions (setup, teardown, etc) and trying to maintain a consistent shell environment across ssh sessions
<RickHull>
multihop would be nice, key/agent mgmt, etc.
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<RickHull>
maybe i'm thinking about this wrongly?
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<RickHull>
duderonomy: nice nick :)
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<weaksauce>
RickHull ansible is nice.
<weaksauce>
but limited.
<RickHull>
my requirements seem fairly basic at this point, no?
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<weaksauce>
for the right tool sure :)
<RickHull>
weaksauce: what about in the ruby ecosystem?
<weaksauce>
I tried a few times to like chef but I didn't
<RickHull>
i don't, but it is powerful
<bnagy>
RickHull: ansible
<weaksauce>
but I am not really a devops guy though so maybe it's what is needed
<RickHull>
i'm having trouble seeing how to adapt it for more ad hoc type stuff without buying in to the whole shebang
<weaksauce>
you can run ad hoc commands on it
<weaksauce>
it's quite easy actually
<RickHull>
bnagy: that's the third or fourth rec, noted
<bnagy>
all the ruby stuff appears to suffer from "being too clever" disease
<RickHull>
i prefer libs to frameworks
<RickHull>
and chef is most def a framework, AFAICT
<RickHull>
i.e. mega conceptual load
<RickHull>
for simple shit
<weaksauce>
I like the declarative nature of ansible. I want this and I can run it as many times as I need without worry
<weaksauce>
as it's idempotent between runs
<RickHull>
bnagy: so now i'm tempted to write a bottom up lib for remote execution for ruby
<weaksauce>
do it RickHull and be a hero
<bnagy>
cool
<bnagy>
do it like ansible :)
<weaksauce>
ansible is good and I like it but it's not perfect
<RickHull>
yeah, some notion of idempotency is very useful
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<bnagy>
well if I did it I would make it neckbeardy
<bnagy>
SSH is good. Running "normal" scripts is good. DSLs are bad.
<RickHull>
is that a technical term?
<bnagy>
like.. it's safe to assume that your sysadmins can write simple scripts
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<RickHull>
i want the lib to have a story for: 1. SSH keys / agents 2. executing things remotely sanely 3. output capture 4. failure - retry and alert
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<RickHull>
as far as DSLs go, I am firmly in the minitest/spec camp as opposed to rspec
<bnagy>
remote system info as part of the logic is nice
<bnagy>
kinda like expect I guess
<bnagy>
anyway, I wouldn't do it myself, because ansible :)
<bnagy>
I don't have a religious position on "is the glorified SSH client written in ruby"
<RickHull>
i don't either
<RickHull>
but i would like to be able to reuse e.g. ~/.chef/knife.rb and maybe some fog stuff
<RickHull>
and also sidestep virtualenv / pip / blahblah. not that it's worse than rubygems / bundler
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<bnagy>
anyway I didn't think Kids These Days even managed machines anymore
<RickHull>
*necessarily worse
<bnagy>
it's all docker instances, isn't it?
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<RickHull>
docker instances, all the way down
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<RickHull>
speaking of which, there is rocket, or maybe just use systemd-nspawn?
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<RickHull>
bnagy: what's your $DAYJOB?
<bnagy>
breaking software
<RickHull>
like any good engy
<bnagy>
uh no, like srsly
<RickHull>
i'm wearing the devops hat for the first time. though at this point i have my hands in so many jars it's really infra
<RickHull>
pentest, qa, ?
<bnagy>
neither
<bnagy>
like, finding bugs. Pentesters break into systems.
<RickHull>
every (good) software engineer finds bugs
<RickHull>
no matter the hat
<bnagy>
yeah, but usually in their / their companies stuff
<RickHull>
yeah, i did a long stint in QA, building out the dept in a startup. i barely avoided getting tarnished with the QA brush
<bnagy>
and not as their actual core job
<RickHull>
i think the tarnish is not so bad lately
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<bnagy>
qa is quite a different thing :)
<RickHull>
depends on your perspective
<bnagy>
uh.. ok.
<bnagy>
whatever. Yes. I'm in QA.
<RickHull>
violent agreement, hats are silly
<RickHull>
software engineering is what matters
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<RickHull>
i think companies are finally coming around to the idea that breaking software is as important as building it
<RickHull>
but it's been a long time coming. i can attest to that
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<bnagy>
well it's not the 90s anymore
<bnagy>
but tbh it's the generic mitigations that keep raising the bar for exploits
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<RickHull>
as a concrete example, aphyr/jepsen is a watershed project
<RickHull>
simple concept, we will never be without it going forward
<RickHull>
not focused on exploits so much as downtime, but biz impact is the bottom line
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<RickHull>
jepsen, as a project, is probably "worth" $10b, if not several orders of magnitude more
<bnagy>
popcorn.gif
<RickHull>
heh
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<RickHull>
anyway, point being, much respect for breaking software. that's my history, my future, and all of of S/W eng's
<RickHull>
so, generic mitigations?
<RickHull>
like NX bits?
<RickHull>
W^X?
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<RickHull>
rust?
<RickHull>
any elixir fans in the house?
<harly>
am I the only one seeing RickHull talk to himself? it's like half the conversation ismissing....
<RickHull>
heh, bnagy is my counterpart
<harly>
not having a dig. seriously wondering if my client is buggy :)
<Asher>
i've been around just not active in here very often
<RickHull>
i've been not around, but when i am, very active
<Asher>
haha
<RickHull>
i was asking earlier about remote execution framework / lib. any thoughts?
<RickHull>
what are you up to these days?
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<Asher>
i've been working on getting my company, StrongAI, started
<RickHull>
inneresting
<RickHull>
ML?
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<Asher>
no it's an information intelligence platform based on my phd research in semiotics/psychoanalysis
<Asher>
a model for natural language
<Asher>
and natural language computing
<RickHull>
ok, sounds tough
<Asher>
it's been a long time coming :)
<RickHull>
natural language computing, i am bearish on
<Asher>
very excited about how it's coming together tho
<Asher>
howso?
<RickHull>
e.g cucumber?
<Asher>
no more like programs that would pass the turing test
<Asher>
tho i find that a silly measure, at least it's familiar :)
<RickHull>
is ML a core component?
<Asher>
no, not necessarily involved at all
<RickHull>
e.g. supervised / unsupervised?
<Asher>
it's based on extensive research in Turing's owrk, i found a bunch of aspect of Turing's work in ordinal logic that elaborates on his interest in the imitation game
<Asher>
*aspects
<RickHull>
inneresting
<RickHull>
i have a fair amount of exposure to AI outside of ML
<Asher>
ordinal logic becomes a method for organizing a sort of natural language database
<Asher>
the problem of natural language between the incompleteness theorems (Gödel) - namely: if someone else makes a statement, you not only don't know if you know how to make that statement, you don't even know if you have a copy of their system that constructed it
<RickHull>
interesting formulation
<RickHull>
(i am so not an expert, here)
<RickHull>
but i have some exposure
<Asher>
so the difficult is: you have a statement, identify which systems that made it, compare them
<Asher>
*difficulty
<Asher>
*systems that could have made it
<Asher>
sorry it's been a long day :)
<RickHull>
the copy of the system that constructed it, seems like turing
<Asher>
yes, turing all over
<RickHull>
bootstrap my face ;)
<Asher>
hehe
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<Asher>
so the idea is: we need a platform that is capable of diagramming information
<Asher>
that is: any information, arbitrarily, and all/any transformations implied
<RickHull>
sounds like a grammar
<Asher>
a diagrammatic capacity able to address any grammar
<Asher>
it doesn't matter how you write it down, only that you have a way to do so
<RickHull>
ai yi yi, abstract metazone
<Asher>
yea that's the problem with AI :)
<RickHull>
heh
<RickHull>
well even if i can't comprehend it, i'm glad to hear you're still killing it on some super heavy shit. and i haven't given up on understanding it
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<Asher>
well i was just throwing my thesis out there, no expectation to make sense of it :)
<RickHull>
so still academia as opposed to industry?
<Asher>
no i'm working on starting a company based on it
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<cpach>
hi! in order to learn the language, i've started implementing the matasano crypto challengens (cryptopals.com) in ruby.
<cpach>
now i really miss something like racket's byte strings or python's bytes objects.
<cpach>
does anyone here know of a gem that implements this functionality?
<cpach>
in case you wonder, racket defines byte strings like this: "A byte string is a fixed-length array of bytes. A byte is an exact integer between 0 and 255 inclusive."
<jhass>
what's missing in String with encoding ASCII-8bit (aliased as binary)
<jhass>
?
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<cpach>
jhass: that sounds interesting. i'll check the documentation for the String class.
<jhass>
cpach: make sure to pay particular attention to String#unpack and Array#pack
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<cpach>
jhass: ok. would it be possible/wise to set the encoding when i initialize the String object?
<jhass>
depends on what you mean by "initialize the String object"
<jhass>
note that you would also often keep your data as an array of fixnums, like String#unpack and String#bytes returns it
<cpach>
i was thinking that maybe it would be possible to force the string to only contain ASCII. e.g. that i would not be able to append non-ASCII strings, such as 'n' with tilde over
<jhass>
well, "n with tilde over" in one encoding, is just a byte sequence too, encoding is just the interpretation of a byte sequence, not its representation in memory
<cpach>
sure
<jhass>
I think I would keep the array of fixnums most of the time and only pack it for serialization and/or presentation
<cpach>
yeah, that sounds sane. thanks for the advice!
<jhass>
yw
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<mateusz_>
Is it normal that 'echo $GEM_PATH' gives empty line but according to 'gem env' I have two folders in gempath? 'ruby -e "require 'rubygems'; puts Gem.path"' is confirming this.
<mateusz_>
How can I temporarily change gem path? I want to temporarily make currently installed gems unaccessible (I want to check whatever my gem has set all required dependencies).
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<jhass>
setting GEM_PATH and GEM_HOME didn't work?
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<mateusz_>
jhaas: I have yet to test this, because I am not understanting situations and I want to avoid accidental destruction.
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<mateusz_>
Is it normal that with empty GEM_PATH and GEM_HOME there are default gem locations?
<jhass>
yes
<mateusz_>
jhass: Thanks! I expected this, but I wanted to verify this.
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<ruby-lang532>
how do you use irc?
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<rgb-one>
ruby-lang532: sounds like a trick question my friend as you are using it right now
<ruby-lang532>
I want to use from a console, what are the main commands?
<rgb-one>
You will need a command line IRC client
<ruby-lang532>
I try to use weechat, but I didn't know the basic, how to post a message
<rgb-one>
look at the manuals for weechat
<ruby-lang532>
I am a little lazy, is there something easier like a list of commands?
<jhass>
yeah, the manuals for weechat would include that
<ruby-lang532>
weechat tutorial is about opening buffers and windows for private coversations
<jhass>
there's also /help
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<ruby-lang532>
I imagine that threre is something like /connect /channel /user /nick
<ruby-lang532>
perhaps it would be better to have a hash and you only have to give values to the keys
<rgb-one>
ruby-lang532: man weechat may be of help
<ruby-lang532>
Perhaps I am a simple man, but I would like things to be simpler than to have to read a lot of tutorials to know five or six basic commands
<rgb-one>
ruby-lang532: It is what it is. by man i mean the manual pages for the application. type man weechat in the terminal for an overview of the applications functionality
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<ruby-lang532>
My son thinks he can get rich very quickly with some social network idea (like facebook), how can you try to make to convince someone that things are not so simple?
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<rgb-one>
ruby-lang532: how do you know it is not so simple?
<ruby-lang532>
My favourite argument is that there must be a lot of intelligent and creative people there but there are not so many rich people
<ruby-lang532>
what percentage of the nicks are about bots?
<rgb-one>
ruby-lang532: best is to let him find out himself
<ruby-lang532>
Yes, sometimes you have to receive a goog blow to put your feet on firm ground again
<ruby-lang532>
Personal experience is not something than can be easily transfered
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<ruby-lang532>
Zed said that programmers are a dime a dozen, I can imagine that that is a little of an exaggeration but anyway the advice is to have other skills and use
<ruby-lang532>
programming as a tool
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<ruby-lang532>
How hard is the transition from Sinatra to rails?
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<ruby-lang532>
As it is the first time I use a freenode/ruby I wonder if there is so little activity here as I see, I imagine people are chatting in private?
<jhass>
no, that's normal
<jhass>
also #ruby is the more active channel ;P
<ruby-lang532>
Do people use this for any kind of work? tickets for github or similar?
<jhass>
IRC is used sort of as a mixture of a passive and an active medium
<ruby-lang532>
passive?
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<jhass>
many just join and never say anything but read to learn from the conversations
<ruby-lang532>
but there are not so many conversations to learn about
<jhass>
questions are asked and sometimes only answered hours later when somebody has time and knowledge to answer them
<ruby-lang532>
jhass to your work in ruby?
<jhass>
at which it usually transitions into the active medium
<ruby-lang532>
I like Lisp but I find ruby is better when I have to do a lot of string operations or look for some library
<jhass>
ruby-lang532: stick around for a day or two continously, and maybe in #ruby too, you'll see what I mean ;)
<jhass>
by continously I mean just keep the client running and peek in every once in a while
<ruby-lang532>
how can I change to #ruby or open ruby in another tag /window, something like /connect #ruby ?
<jhass>
/join #ruby
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<ruby-lang532>
ok things, that sound easy )
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