asheesh changed the topic of #sandstorm to: Welcome to #sandstorm: home of all things sandstorm.io. Say hi! | Channel glossary: "i,i" means "I have no point, I just want to say". b == thumbs up. | Public logs at https://botbot.me/freenode/sandstorm/ & http://logbot.g0v.tw/channel/sandstorm/today
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<ckocagil> I was looking for the same thing, a password manager that can be ported to sandstorm
<ckocagil> there isn't a good one worth porting IMO. mostly due to lack of good clients (browser extensions & mobile)
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<simonv3> I'm going to have to come back to this tomorrow when I'm on my computer, but julia, who I just interviewed for #opensourcedesign was designing for an OSS password manager.
<simonv3> Don't think it's one of the ones mentioned above QTPass maybe?
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<PotentialUser> Hi
<PotentialUser> Is there a way to run sandstorm on a raspberry pi?
<zarvox> At the moment, Sandstorm only runs on x86_64, because apps can contain native binaries, and because last I checked mongo didn't run on arm
<zarvox> So to avoid fragmenting the ecosystem, we settled on x86_64 for now.
<PotentialUser> Ok, thank you.
<zarvox> https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/SERVER-1811 is a blocker. I'm pretty sure none of Sandstorm's code itself explicitly depends on x86_64, but mongo definitely does, and Meteor may make similar assumptions.
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<asheesh> Morning, all.
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<pod> moin
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<asheesh> win 31
<asheesh> ...
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<asheesh> simonv3 & ocdtrekkie: Curious if you have any thoughts, for-or-against, me setting up a Discourse forum for Sandstorm?
<asheesh> And, if so, any chance you'd be interested in being a moderator?
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<kentonv> asheesh: Are you going to package it? :)
<ocdtrekkie> asheesh: I am not opposed.
<ocdtrekkie> Better than Google Groups.
<ocdtrekkie> Side thought: Does everyone agree KeePass is the sort of thing that should have an official website served over https?
<pod> seems reasonable given its importance
<pod> asheesh: is said Discourse meant to replace a google group?
<asheesh> I was thinking it's more to be a user forum, although I imagine much app packaging discussion would move there.
<asheesh> We sort of use GitHub issues for user support, but that makes it impossible for the community to converge on community-written general guides for things.
<asheesh> Sure we could ask them to do that on the GitHub wiki.
<pod> can you get email notifications / digests from a discourse?
<asheesh> I like that Discourse has features to encourage engagement.
<asheesh> Yeah totally has digests & email notifications.
<ocdtrekkie> A lot of things would be less buried on a forum. Like the Wekan I put together for in progress stuff. It's in a random email thread.
<pod> always found that they're hard to catch up on. but that's just my $0.02
<pod> search is a ++ feature for sure
<pod> basically gives content a longer shelf life which is great.
<asheesh> Also I want a place for people to like suggest what apps they like etc.
<asheesh> And then for that to have good pagerank.
<pod> seems like this'd solve a bunch of issues. :) +1
<asheesh> Good pagerank being a requirement of mine makes it hard to believe that putting Discourse in a grain is a way to succeed at that.
<asheesh> (cc: kentonv )
<asheesh> There are a bunch of Discourse hosting services though including the ones run by the upstream Discourse authors.
<asheesh> Let me go see if we qualify for their free open source hosting.
<kentonv> if hosting on Sandstorm doesn't work, we should fix Sandstorm -- or at least figure out exactly what it would take to fix, before we make the decision that it's too much.
<asheesh> Would any of y'all be interested in moderator permissions? pod ocdtrekkie au simonv3 ckocagil
<pod> I have limited time for such things but no aversion to mucking in with community stuff :)
<pod> asheesh: what about the grain route specifically do you think would hurt pagerank?
<ocdtrekkie> I'm always happy to help as available.
<pod> it *does* provide harder to remember URLs unless maybe there's a redirect somewhere?
<ocdtrekkie> pod: You can manually forward a subdomain without a huge problem to Sandstorm.
<ocdtrekkie> It just can't be done using Sandstorm itself.
<asheesh> Yeah, happy to talk more about that. Current thoughts: (1) Grain URL post-redirect means that there can be no SEO-optimizing keywords in the domain after the redirect.
<asheesh> (2) I guess the URL we'd publish hypothetically would be a sharing link, not a grain URL. There's inconsistent treatment of URLs within Sandstorm, so if a user copy-pastes a URL to a friend, the friend will probably get a grain URL not a sharing link, so the links wouldn't be the same, so people helpfully copy-pasting links to friends will present their friends with "Request access" buttons, not content
<asheesh> .
<asheesh> ("inconsistent" just meaning "if you don't sign in, you stay on the sharing link, but after that, you get to the grain link" which is usually right, but less right if you care about pagerank)
<asheesh> (3) I'm fearful for the performance impact on PageRank of the Sandstorm UI.
<kentonv> we should implement "public short URLs", which we've thought about before
<asheesh> (4) I'm fearful for Google's ability to index the content deep inside the grain frame.
<asheesh> ability/willingness/etc.
<asheesh> public short URLs could be implemented in a way that addresses (1) and (2), I believe, but it's messy-ish still because if you're an admin, you'd perhaps stop using the public short URL since you have more permissions than the sharing link that the public short URL represents. But maybe we'd treat the public short URL as == the grain ID, not == a sharing link, in which case that problem goes away.
<dwrensha> if you follow the short URL, no matter who you are, you would end up with all of your permissions
<asheesh> (5) Discourse wants to send nightly digest emails out, but we have no "cron"-like API.
<asheesh> dwrensha++ that addresses my concern on (1) and (2)
<dwrensha> ah, but you'd get redirected to /grain/:grainId immediately, I imagine
<dwrensha> which might concern you
<asheesh> Yeah, that would probably result in my "inconsistent UI" concern, unless the grain ID also has the properties of the public sharing link.
<asheesh> Otherwise, when a user copy-pastes a URL from their browser into a Facebook chat message with a friend, their friend sees a "You must sign in to request access" UI, which is not really right.
<asheesh> That and it dilutes pagerank.
<kentonv> I was not thinking of a redirect, actually
<kentonv> I was thinking you could get oasis.sandstorm.io/grain/foo, and essentially it's like "foo" is the grain ID. Another further option -- if we want to go down the route of allowing "full-window mode" -- would be mapping foo.oasis.sandstorm.io (or any other hostname, really) to a specific grain with no Sandstorm UI around it.
<kentonv> there would still be an iframe for sandboxing, though
<asheesh> FWIW, since Discourse is open source and has import/export, it would be reasonably easy to transition to/from hosted Discourse on non-Sandstorm <=> self-hosted via Sandstorm. It seems we do qualify for their free hosting offering, so long as we're willing to CNAME discourse.sandstorm.io to them, or otherwise have "discourse" in the URL, see also: https://blog.discourse.org/2016/03/free-discourse-forum-h
<asheesh> osting-for-community-friendly-github-projects/
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<kentonv> FWIW most times that I've interacted with Discourse I have not enjoyed it. But that's a different issue.
<asheesh> "Google tries to associate framed content with the page containing the frames, but we don't guarantee that we will." <https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/34445?hl=en>
<asheesh> So the IFRAME might be an obstacle to getting the content indexed.
<asheesh> One semi-crazy thing we could do is change Sandstorm to echo out sandboxed-but-indexable version of the page in the NOFRAMES tag.
<kentonv> hmm, that's possibly a really good idea
<kentonv> as long as Google doesn't interpret it as a lie, but we can probably figure that out
<asheesh> We'd have to make sure when Google clicks links in the iframe, it believes it is navigating the NOFRAMES tag outside the IFRAME.
<asheesh> s/Google/googlebot/
<asheesh> Years ago, I'd have said, this is a sort of insane thing to believe we can convince Googlebot, but maybe we can because computers and software get more insane all the time.
<asheesh> I think those are the technical roadblocks we'd need to overcome, fwiw.
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<asheesh> To me, this feels more like "operating a public SaaS service" than it feels like "running a personal service" so I'm not super bothered by the idea of using a SaaS provider for it.
<asheesh> https://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/webmasters/uQ8m1RPqgxw discusses that Google sometimes wants to index the iframe itself, which is a bit of a mess for us.
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<asheesh> We can run some experiments if we want to find out more about googlebot<=>iframes in practice.
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<nwf> dwrensha: I have a question for you, if you have a moment, about Sandstorm's dynamic attenuation.
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<nwf> Suppose there are three users, A, B, and C, and two rights, "read" and "write"... if A shares a document as rw to B, and B as rw to C, but then A changes B to ro (so C also drops to ro) and then A changes B back to rw... what is C's rights at the end of that chain?
<kentonv> nwf: rw. Think of it as each edge storing the _intent_ of the creator, and we compile intents into actual permissions on-demand, so the downstream edges are not updated when upstream changes.
<kentonv> in fact if you have only ro you can still express the intent to share rw to someone else, and if your own permissions are ever upgraded to include w, then the other person will get it then. However, we hide this in the UI because it would confuse people.
<nwf> Rock.
<nwf> Thanks!
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