<dwrensha>
like, I see that other people are anonymous, but I can never determine whether *I'm* anonymous
<asheesh>
I think Mitar has an important point that people expect typing in one tab to be the same "account" as typing in another tab.
<dwrensha>
For this reason, I'm always afraid to click on links to docs.google.com
<dwrensha>
I wonder whether if having two separate notions of anonymity would be confusing
<dwrensha>
i.e. what we have now, plus ephemeral identities
<dwrensha>
I don't think we want to get rid of our current notion of anonymous users
<asheesh>
Do we need what we have now, I wonder?
<digitalcircuit>
dwrensha: my limited experience with Google Drive so far - you're anonymous by default on desktop, and -not- anonymous by default in the mobile apps. I think.
<asheesh>
I'd be very interested in seeing a technical design writeup of ephemeral identities (similar to Google anonymous animals), including an optional proposal to remove what we have now.
<asheesh>
Doesn't mean that we'd implement it, but I'm very curious what it would look like and I think dwrensha you're one of the best people to write something like that up.
<asheesh>
We'd probably still retain "anonymous" for API users, for example. (thinking out loud)
<asheesh>
Otherwise we end up in a bit of a mess with e.g. Piwik. Although maybe it's not important; I haven't thought about it carefully.
<dwrensha>
Typically, when an identity creates an API token, the requests that come in on that token are associated with that identity
<dwrensha>
this is the "forSharing" flag, which is usually set to "false"
<dwrensha>
e.g. so when I have an API token for a GitLab grain, GitLab can update its activity feed when I push to the repo
<asheesh>
Right. I believe Piwik sets it to true to avoid this behavior, but I'll have to check, One sec.
<kentonv>
Mitar: If the app's permission model is "users can edit their own posts but not others'", then I would suggest that the app should require login. If the permission model is "everyone who has permission can edit everything", then anonymous use makes sense -- and anonymous users will be able to edit in any tab.
<kentonv>
Mitar: logging in is how you make sure the app can correlate you across sessions. If you want to correlate, but you also want to hide your identity, then what you want is to log in under a pseudonym.
<kentonv>
Mitar: Staying anonymous -- *not* logging in -- is what you do when you *do not want* the app to know that you are the same person across multiple visits.
<kentonv>
I agree that the ability to create pseudonyms easily would be a great feature although I'm not sure if it's something we will be able to pursue in the short term given everything on our plate.y
<Mitar>
> I don't think we want to get rid of our current notion of anonymous users
<Mitar>
what you have now could be done with ephemeral entities + private browser window
<Mitar>
but ephemeral cannot be done without Sandstorm support
<Mitar>
so if current anonymous users would be converted to ephemeral users, then those who want to have a separate tab, would just use private browser window, which is something they are already used to
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<Mitar>
> If the app's permission model is "users can edit their own posts but not others'", then I would suggest that the app should require login >>> why? users could post their comments, and be able to edit them while they are there, and when they close the window the session is closed, why would they have to login in?
<Mitar>
I really think that having native anonymous users support is a great idea
<Mitar>
that we can have apps which do not really require authentication for many actions
<Mitar>
but it should be easy to get apps to use that, not that one has to change logic in app a lot
<Mitar>
I agree that there are apps which do not need users at all, but they can simply ignore anyway anything Sandstorm send them through headers
<Mitar>
what I think is an important question is how to get normal apps which have users and permissions to also support anonymous users because Sandstorm would make it easy to do so
<Mitar>
> logging in is how you make sure the app can correlate you across sessions. If you want to correlate, but you also want to hide your identity, then what you want is to log in under a pseudonym.
<Mitar>
I want to correlate during a session, but not later on
<Mitar>
I want user to be able to edit comments they just made
<Mitar>
and I want them to be in power of using multiple windows
<Mitar>
once they close or logout in Sandstorm (or click some button to destroy anonymous user) app should not be able to correlate them anymore, because uid will not be used at all
<Mitar>
I really think the easiest way would simply be to have uid provided for all users, and then Sandstorm or destroy them for anonymous users when window is closed, or user click destroy session, or they are reused, for normal users
<Mitar>
and then apps can simply reuse any logic they have
<Mitar>
and if the app does not care about users, perfect, simply ignore uid
<Mitar>
if app cares about users, use uid, but some of those uids app will see only once, perfect
<Mitar>
if you want to be backwards compatible we can introduce one more ID type thingy
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<earnThis>
does sandstorm _need_ a linux distro to run on?
<earnThis>
i think im confused as to which layer it sits at
<dwrensha>
No, it it does not need any particular distro
<dwrensha>
it comes bundled with all of its dependencies and when it it runs it self-containerizes
<dwrensha>
in a default install, everything Sandstorm needs gets put in /opt/sandstorm
<dwrensha>
all that it needs from the system is a sufficiently new (>= 3.13) Linux ABI
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<earnThis>
dwrensha: so is there any benefit to running ontop of ubuntu, for examplE?
<dwrensha>
not particularly
<dwrensha>
oh, I should say that the install script has a few dependencies
<earnThis>
dwrensha: oh wait, maybe I misunderstood your reply. does sandstorm not need _any_ distro in particular, or does it not need a distro at all ?
<earnThis>
dwrensha: im think bare metal vs OS dependent
<earnThis>
thinking**
<dwrensha>
like bash and useradd and curl
<dwrensha>
define "bare metal"
<dwrensha>
Sandstorm definitely does need Linux
<earnThis>
dwrensha: new server, just has a BIOS
<dwrensha>
Sandstorm needs a running Linux kernel
<earnThis>
dwrensha: ok thats what I was looking for
<dwrensha>
but does it does not make a big difference which distribution you choose
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<earnThis>
right
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* asheesh
waves, morning all.
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<frigginglorious>
asheesh: morning! On saturday, I met a guy who met you… I think he said at PyCon?
<frigginglorious>
Dan Calahan from Mozilla. It’s a small world of developers bro :P
<asheesh>
Yup, Dan Calahan I last saw at PyCon. He's great.
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<frigginglorious>
i’m hoping i helped get some sandstorm converts this weekend.
<frigginglorious>
Hey, how are you/will you guys be implementing grains that are forks of other packages, into the App Market?
<frigginglorious>
I would like to add a small peices of functionality to specialize Rocket.Chat, but it wouldn’t be something they would want in the full product.
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<Zertrin>
bouncing on the exchange with earnThis earlier, I kind of think that the catchline on the main website is a bit misleading "Sandstorm is an open source operating system for personal and private clouds.". One could think of an operating system as something that runs on bare metal (i.e. has a kernel to interact with the hardware). Sandstorm isn't really an OS, but I'm not sure what to call it otherwise.
<earnThis>
Zertrin: yes, exactly, the tagline was tripping me up. But calling it an OS short of makes sense. Take CentOS or Ubuntu Server, they run on bare metal but rely on the kernel to actaully interact with the hardware - sounds like Sandstorm does the same, needs a kernel to interact with the hardware, jsut doesnt come with one like CentOS/Ubuntu, so it needs a given linux distro to sort of act in "passive" mode so the kernel can be used
<earnThis>
hope no one tells me that's way off cause it makes so much sense to me like that
<dwrensha>
I could imagine a Sandstorm-only Linux distro
<asheesh>
frigginglorious: re: modified rocket.chat: That's interesting! Tentatively I would say, give it a new name, and I think that's fine.
<asheesh>
That way, no one confuses your thing with the official Rocket.Chat package.
<dwrensha>
"Operating System" seems like a reasonably appropriate term at least in that case
<frigginglorious>
dwrensha: maybe like “Application Distribution System
<earnThis>
dwrensha: or atleats "OS Later"
<earnThis>
OS layer**
<earnThis>
cant type today
<asheesh>
I personally don't love calling it an "operating system" but after I add up all the things Sandstorm does (user management, app installs, app isolation, app inter-connection), it seems to me that operating system is an OK name. I would prefer "dashboard" or "software suite" or something like that which avoids the very technical term of "operating system."
<earnThis>
asheesh: sure, to a passerby it'd be tough to see the difference between Sandstorm and another OS
<earnThis>
err, _an_ OS, not another
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<zarvox>
Observation: Meteor seems to be switching to ~weekly point releases. How on top of that do we want to keep?
<dwrensha>
do they bump the node version each time?
<zarvox>
I would expect the next node version bump to land at the next Meteor minor (1.4) though benjamn has successfully prototyped using node 5 with Meteor
<zarvox>
that said, once they have an easy way to handle multiple node versions, I imagine they would probably ship updates more frequently
<zarvox>
To answer your question: I think all of the 1.3.* releases ship the same node (v0.10.43)
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<ocdtrekkie_>
PR #1868 looks awesome.
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