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<lab> is there space for for-profit startups in stellar ecosystem? i am afraid.
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<sacarlson> afraid your company won't be profitable?
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<jed> yeah there should be tons of space. SDF is just contributing to the core infrastruture
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<lab> as an entrepreneur, i'd rather fork a network to run business if the network is not crowd enough. from for profit point of view.
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<lab> it can reduce risk of uncertainty and maximize profit.
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<lab> what is the critical mass to become community driven growth? i think current situation is far below the it.
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<lab> i need leave and will be back in 2 hours.
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<sankaet> @lab: just like how you wont fork a programming language before building with it, in the same way I do not think it makes sense to fork Stellar, unless you want to build another Stellar. Like how Facebook did with PHP, even then for the longest time that wasnt a necessity. Just my opinion
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<sacarlson> being I'm just a dreamer not an entrepreneur I just see it as possibly a very cool future for everyone, I doesn't really mater what way it branches it's already here
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<dzham> @lab: If you're concerned about the profibility as an ISV as-is, what's forking going to get you? You get to issue your own native currency, but that currency is only going to get valuable if you can attract users and ISV's to build value on top of your network. So you’re back to square one.
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<sacarlson> I agree, just make a currency asset that you add to the network valuable or trusted
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<thanh> nah, i read the topic as network adoption concern; not really a forking issue.
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<dzham> Yeah, but network adaption begets network adaption. Forking, and starting his own network is just going to have the same issues
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<thanh> i got the point, dzham;
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<dzham> ;)
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<thanh> opting for decentralized/public version is normally to take advantage of network effect; and with lower barrier to entry
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<thanh> this is the opposite of building just another closed loop system;
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<thanh> it has little thing to deal with (network) forking as we tend to associate.
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<sacarlson> as I think they are already planing or expecting forking, as long as each network has the multi sign contract features with the added hash(x) signers or similar, we should be able to move assets safely across networks.
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<sacarlson> using your pay channel method with 2 signers so the contracts require 2 signers on both sides so no holding escrow required
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<thanh> anw, just my thoughts, let's wait for more input once he's back
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<dzham> @sacarlson: I thought hash(x) was in response to IPL
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<sacarlson> what is ILP?
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<dzham> Ripple’s interledger
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<dzham> for moving assets between ledgers
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<sacarlson> ya I think they originated or first published the idea
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<dzham> It doesn’t hurt to be compatible
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<sacarlson> but I assume it enables direct safe exchange between anything including all the bitcoin and it's dirivitives and future coins and networks
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<lab> hi guys i'm back
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<lab> i was worrying about the network adoption.
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<lab> is there anyone seriously think about running a forprofit business on stellar and ever talked to potential investor?
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<dzham> Not at the moment. I’m still losing money on developing solutions/technology on top of it :)
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<lab> me too.
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<lab> let me see, there are two different kinds of app.
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<dzham> But at least I see some opportunity as an ISV, compared to a network like Ripple, where only themselves and the big consulting co’s are making money
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<lab> Ripple is not a successful ecosystem, absolutely
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<lab> one is serving existing user. one is appealing for new users adopt the network.
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<dzham> appealing for new users could also include apps that on the surface are completely network agnostic.
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<dzham> e.g. Reveal
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<lab> Reveal is a good case to study.
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<lab> if the founder is not so powerful, investor will obvious push them off stellar
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<dzham> Card playing games, like Spells of Genesis (on Counterparty) would also fit in there
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<lab> to a forked ledger, at least btc chain.
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<lab> typical Matthew Effect in altcoins.
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<lab> any service facing existing users will not sustain in such few real users.
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<lab> there are only few thousands real people have STR in my estimation.
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<lab> so we need appealing more, but if you have a good idea/team to do that, and you are running for profit
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<lab> why not create a new coin. then the result doesn't help stellar network.
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<lab> how to break the loop?
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<buhrmi> give it a little push
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<lab> just be more patient
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<thanh> For your prior question, lab: <"is there anyone seriously think about running a forprofit business on stellar and ever talked to potential investor?"
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<thanh> a yes from me, i do.
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<thanh> but it's more of how to build up a sustainable business instead of for profit biz.
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<buhrmi> well if a business is not profitable it's not sustainable right
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<sacarlson> I worked for a non-profit company for over 12 years before it was sold. they made so much money they had to give it away to build hospitals and buy the CEO a new company jet to make sure the bottom line was balance at zero profit. the company was called Hughes Aircraft Co.
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<sacarlson> I had another stupid idea. what if you could create a stellar asset that some how had another networks assets frozen in it until one person or group controlled some percentage of the total issued stellar asset? At that point they could liquidate the other networks asset to do with whatever.
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<sacarlson> then it could be traded on the stellar network
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<buhrmi> poor CEO being forced to have his own jet
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<sacarlson> actualy I guess it was a prop plane but it was the biggist in the world called the spuce goose. just another one of his toys
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<thanh> it takes lot of time and sweat for the team to redesign & implement the core to address scale issue. Now that stellar-core is about to launch after all the effort. It might be the time to eye on what's next for the ecosystem?
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<sacarlson> how about a cool stellar-core android wallet app? anyone working on one yet?
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<raymens> that would be more of a horizon wallet right?
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<sacarlson> I've already started a small amount of research in making a new android wallet that included QR code and bluetooth transactions
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<sacarlson> I had hopes it could all be done in javascript as I see they have tools in android to convert javascripts to apps, but I'm not sure how to integrate the QR code and bluetooth using it yet
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<raymens> @sacarlson: use Apache Cordova, or Ionic
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<lab> @thanh: good write
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<bartek> There's also react native for building native mobile apps with Javascript
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<thanh> That blog post was written last August by Greg Brockman, SDF boards, shortly after the launch of the network @lab.
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<sacarlson> it notes it already supports barcode reading
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<sacarlson> wonder if it also supports bluetooth?
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<raymens> Reat Native is limited to IOS and Android though
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<sacarlson> what more do you need?
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<raymens> Windows Phone / Windows 10 :)
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<sacarlson> get a new one
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<raymens> New one?
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<sacarlson> throw away your windws phone get a cheap android device
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<sacarlson> no one I know supports writing software for them
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<raymens> Hehe, never. I've got everything I need on my device, you know, like security updates ;)
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<sacarlson> you mean the one the the NSA has there hands on ?
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<raymens> Yeah, just like Android. But without the other hackers though
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<raymens> But this can turn into a big unneeded discussion :P Just wanted to point out that there are actually users of other platforms than iOS/Android. There's also Jolla, Ubuntu phone, Blackberry
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<regisg27> firefoxOS
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<sacarlson> I also support Ubuntu and Linux Mint so I did my share
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<regisg27> Just found this https://rnplay.org/, react native playground, build & test apps online.
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<sacarlson> cool, this react thing is the bomb
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<sacarlson> I expect you all to have stellar apps running on android and IOS by tomaro
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<regisg27> @sacarlson Yes, i'm just starting to learn react + redux + immutable. I'm interested on working on react native wallet if you decide to start with this framework.
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<sacarlson> well I think I found the end of the search and I can't fund enuf in react to have bluetooth transactions so the first will just have to live with QR code exchange transactions
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<sacarlson> my research in QR code yestarday the more advanced version can be up to 1024 leters but I don't think this one that is suported in react can perform that version
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<sacarlson> cool rymens thanks for finding that I'll check it out
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<raymens> And then that issuecode is locked to that issuer?
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<sacarlson> no any issuer can have that code
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<raymens> So how do you know the USD of issuer x is not the same as the USD created by issuer y?
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<sacarlson> the issuer is like the bank name. say bank of america hold USD and so does city bank
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<raymens> Yeah but both shouldn't be allowed to actually create new amounts of that asset
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<raymens> Only the central bank should be allowed
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<sacarlson> but these banks may not have FDIC insureance so some may be risky
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<sacarlson> they just issue debt
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<sacarlson> same as your central bank does also
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<raymens> So if I have an account at both of those banks, are the assets interchangeable?
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<raymens> USD of bank x + USD of bank y = USD total?
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<sacarlson> if they are both trusted banks I guess they would be. but it's more like isueing bonds. if later in time we find that some issuer can't always pay back his loans then is debt is not worth 1 = 1
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<raymens> All right, so it's not possible to configure an asset in such a way that there's just one issuer x?
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<sacarlson> not forcefuly
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<dzham> and IMHO that’s a good thing, it keeps the poachers away..
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<raymens> So it's really essential for an account to trust the right issuer, right?
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<sacarlson> the right issuer with the right amount
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<sacarlson> that's why they have that setting in they system that you preset what you max debt from an issuer will be
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<sacarlson> just like when a bank issures you a credit card the issue it with a limit max to limit there risk
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<raymens> Does the account set that max debt or does the issuer?
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<sacarlson> the one accepting the issues has a setting of max he will accept and the issuer has the option of issueing any quantity he feels he needs or can sell
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<raymens> Right. Can an issuer accept an asset of the same name, issued by another party without a trustline to that other party?
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<sacarlson> he could accept an asset with the same name as he issues from another account but he would be required to setup a trustline with issueing party first
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<raymens> All right, so an issuer cannot unknowingly accept a certain amount of an asset he's issuing himself that's issued by another party :)
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<raymens> Thanks sacarlson and dzham, that clarified it alot
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<sacarlson> oh if the other party is sending back funds that he has issuered to them he can accept it without added trustlines as you already trust yourself
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<raymens> Yeah, just wanted to make sure that the if issuer x has issued credit to account y. And issuer y has issued credit to account y. Account y cannot send both of those amounts, using the same asset code, to issuer x
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<matslats> I just heard that Ripple isn't decentralised at all but relies on 3 servers held by Ripple labs. Can anyone confirm or deny that? Is there a similar architecture in Stellar?
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<sacarlson> ripple should be capable of being uncentralized but maybe they just don't have anyone willing to put up the assets needed to run a node one that net
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<dzham> That’s probably true, even though I think it was four servers. They’ve never denied it anyways. And it’s still supposed to be under development
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<sacarlson> but they took the name lab off there name now?
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<dzham> @sacarlson: they did
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<sacarlson> I'm presently setup as a node on stellar testnet and last I looked there was only 3 conections. we used to have like 8
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<sacarlson> but I think many have moved to live net now on stellar
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<matslats> and stellar? Could my community still run its own separate decentralised network?
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<sacarlson> yes it's open source so you could if you wanted but why pay the extra costs of an infrastructure when you get it free on stellar?
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<sacarlson> or close to free at like fraction of a cent
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<sacarlson> there is also the option of free open-core network
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<matslats> what is a free open corwe network?
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<matslats> and how much does it cost to host a node? Isn't it mostly just the disk space?
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<matslats> wow open core looks like the biz. What certainty is there of long-term support for it?
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<raymens> No clue :) Talk to @buhrmi
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<matslats> Thanks @raymens Are Stellar developments being merged in. @buhrmi are recent stellar developments being merged in?
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<raymens> The open-core network is just 4 commits behind, so that's pretty up-to-date :)
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<jed> open-core removed the dos prevention which isn't a safe thing to do
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<jed> matslats: you can easily spin up your own stellar network if you want
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<jed> you just need to change the value in: NETWORK_PASSPHRASE
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<matslats> hey Jed! I wanna join ALL the LETS and ALL the timebanks together. I've got the nod from all the major networks , but so far $0
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<matslats> Would really appreciate some in-depth advice
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<matslats> Wondering whether to go for Venture Cap and bring in the business barter networks, but they are much harder to persuade.
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<sacarlson> matschaffer: as far as I know you shouldn't require any agreement from most the other chains to combine them, from what I saw suggested was the hash(x) signing adition if added on all or some nets would allow cross trading between them without risk
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<jed> matslats: sure happy to talk about it. I'm in meetings for the next couple hours though
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<matslats> jed: can skype @matslats I'm in Greece 10pm here now
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<matslats> @jed: am free next 2 hours
<Mr_SeLeNiO>
!balance
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<mr_selenio> Sorry wrong tab
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