#bitcoin-wizards on 2015-07-08 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-06-27 08:24 wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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03:58 <bramc> I've made some progress on understanding the intuitions behind the PoS paper

03:59 <bramc> PoS has a bit of collision with proof of space and proof of steak. Maybe we should call it PSPACE to be less confusing

03:59 <kanzure> stake

03:59 <kanzure> as for anti-ambiguity measures, i'm all for that

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04:00 <bramc> It's steak I tell you, that's why they're called CoW systems

04:00 <kanzure> "oh that's the docker thing"

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04:03 <bramc> Anyway, an important element of the whole thing is that the amount of calculation necessary to generate the precommitment for the whole proof of space is somewhat larger than the amount of space being proven, because a significant amount of it isn't kept around

04:07 <bramc> The general framework is that the challenge and the root are hashed together to show which ancestors have to be revealed

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04:07 <bramc> And the overall construction is set up so that you can store an appropriate subset of ancestors so that you always have what you need

04:08 <bramc> (I guess 'almost always' would be sufficient, that may enable some improvements)

04:10 <bramc> But maybe as part of the proof process you need to read more things than are part of the proof proper

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04:13 <bramc> There are potential problems with seek times. I'll need to work through everything with an eye towards figuring out if the whole thing winds up being disk bandwidth limited on the generation side, that could ruin everything

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04:18 <bramc> Hopefully the proof sizes aren't (log(n))^2, that would kind of suck

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04:20 <CodeShark> PoSp vs PoSt? ;)

04:20 <CodeShark> PSPACE is a complexity class

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04:28 <bramc> CodeShark Yes I was making an attempt at this thing called 'humor' which people keep telling me about

04:32 <CodeShark> what's that?

04:33 <CodeShark> is humor similar to PSPACE?

04:34 <CodeShark> PoHAHAHA

04:35 <CodeShark> let's just call it George

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05:15 <CodeShark> does George require the storage be local to be efficient? if not wouldn't that imply it's bandwidth-limited?

05:17 <CodeShark> or if so, rather

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13:38 <bramc> CodeShark The local storage only requires a few lookups to use, it's *generating* the local storage I'm worried about.

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14:27 <null_radix> ethere

14:27 <null_radix> opps

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15:17 <fluffypony> null_radix: it's ethere-ummm, not ethere-opps

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16:17 <cryptonaut420> hey, is anyone having issues with their bitcoind nodes right now? specifically when creating and broadcasting raw transactions? seems to be taking a REALLY long time (but also restarting bitcoind appears to help somewhat)

16:21 <gmaxwell> cryptonaut420: set -minrelaytxfee=0.0001 and that will avoid the issue.

16:21 <Apocalyptic> gmaxwell, is there a way to set minrelaytxfee at runtime without restarting the node ?

16:21 <gmaxwell> Very likely at least (I can't be sure without a reproduction).

16:22 <gmaxwell> Apocalyptic: no, but why would you mind restaring it?

16:22 <Apocalyptic> I don't mind, was just wondering

16:22 <cryptonaut420> ok thanks, seen that advice somewhere else but havnt tried it yet. So others are experiencing the same thing? I ask because I am also running the addrindex patch, so wondering if it has something to do with the patch or if its a general issue

16:24 <gmaxwell> cryptonaut420: oh well addrindex is likely much much more expensive, as IIRC it does search the mempool too.

16:24 <gmaxwell> also the spam attack is constantly reusing addresses, which I think has much worse performance for addrindex

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16:24 <gmaxwell> cryptonaut420: and no, I can't reproduce your behavior, so maybe it's specific to that; though my advice still holds.

16:25 <cryptonaut420> yeah, il try it out and see if it makes a difference

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16:26 <morcos> gmaxwell: restarting a node is not good for fee estimation. it probably doesn't hurt the existing estimation code TOO much, but the obvious next improvment is to see how far back in the current priority queue you are for a given fee, which is information you'd lose if you clear out your mempool

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16:29 <cryptonaut420> nooby question: if I set mintxrelayfee higher than normal, will my node still broadcast transactions that come from itself even if they use below standard fees?

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16:30 <morcos> crytonaut420: no you wont' even be able to create those transactions unless they have high enough priority, in which case you can create and relay them (but this is probably for #bitcoin)

16:31 <cryptonaut420> even using createrawtransaction?

16:32 <morcos> on #bitcoin

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17:31 <zooko> Hm, Bill Cox in http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3104/focus=3129 says that if verification costs for a PoW are high then this can be used for malicious DoS by sending many bogus (non-verifying) solutions.

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17:36 <gmaxwell> zooko: This is news to you? :)

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17:48 <zooko> Well, it is obvious to me in retrospect, but I omitted it from my list of considerations in http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3126 and http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3127 and http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.security.phc/3128

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17:53 <zooko> Unfortunately, the Merkle-Tree+Fiat-Shamir-NIZK proposed by the Argon2 authors gives, as Bill Cox has also pointed out, a substantial advantage to an ASIC implementation.

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17:55 <nsh> with just seven more hyphens we'll ensure commodity home hardware supremacy!

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17:55 <zooko> ☺

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18:18 <amiller> zooko, "substantial advantage"?

18:18 <amiller> i don't agree with that, i don't know concretely what the ratio of hashes to memory accesses are, but if all you need is to 'keep up' with the rate of memory accesses then that could be pretty cheap

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18:23 <zooko> amiller: I think the Merkle Tree construction means a depth of maybe 64 or so hashes, fully piplined.

18:23 <zooko> I assume.

18:25 <amiller> i bet you dont even need to compute those until you've found a solution anyway

18:25 <amiller> i dont think that will have any impact whatsoever on asic

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18:30 <zooko> Hm.

18:30 <zooko> Yeah, you don't need to compute those until you've found a solution. I think. Good point!

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18:32 <zooko> That's a relief.

18:33 <zooko> Because I want to use Argon2d for the well-studied memory-hardness, but I also want cheap verification.

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18:36 <amiller> ok so i want to talk about cuckoo more though

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18:36 <zooko> *nod*

18:36 <amiller> this bill cox guy's posts irritate me because they're super hand wavy.. i think he's plainly wrong now about the asic advantage of argon2d

18:36 <zooko> Hm.

18:36 <amiller> and i'm uncertain about his cuckoo point

18:37 <zooko> 'twould be great if your objection were posted to a mailing list where he, Solar Designer, et al. would see it.

18:37 <amiller> but i'm irrirtated that in his subseuqent post, he's like "IIRC, cuckoo is totally broken"... what does he mean 'recall correctly', he means according to his own post from a few days ago when he declared it was broken

18:37 <amiller> anyway

18:38 <amiller> (yes if i decide i don't feel like an asshole after spewing it out here, i may consolidate it and post to phc :)

18:38 <amiller> so, those irritants aside, i don't understand the cuckoo objection yet

18:38 <amiller> i don't understand this 'hypercube' model of memory

18:38 <zooko> I didn't really think it through.

18:38 <zooko> Because

18:38 <zooko> I don't think cuckoo has been well-studied, and I think it is very different from other algorithms.

18:39 <zooko> Argon2 is basically the same thing as all the other hash functions, scrypt, etc. etc., except newer and tuned/tweaked/etc. and well-studied.

18:39 <zooko> So that's my main motivation.

18:39 <zooko> (Sorry, tromp. I like you.)

18:39 <amiller> right, so, i'm trying to change cuckoo's status from not-studied to studied

18:39 <zooko> There's a cultural thing here that might partially explain the way your and my intuitions differ.

18:40 <zooko> Between the "mathy" cryptographers and the "bit-blender" cryptographers.

18:40 <zooko> The latter call themselves "symmetric" cryptographers, I guess.

18:40 <zooko> I'm in the latter camp.

18:40 <amiller> the structure vs structureless thing

18:40 <zooko> A lot of people that I like and admire are in the mathy camp.

18:40 <amiller> http://www.boazbarak.org/Papers/meta-alg.pdf

18:40 <zooko> If you give me two brand new crypto algorithms from Mars that I know nothing about

18:40 <zooko> Yeah, that one.

18:40 <zooko> It was nice for me to find a venerated mathy/theory guy giving credence to my cultural prejudice.

18:41 <zooko> Anyway, if you give me two completely novel and incomparable algorithms, and I know nothing except that

18:41 <amiller> kind of how like analysts and algebraists eat corn differently

18:41 <zooko> the first one has a security reduction to some random math problem that Gauss used to masturbate to,

18:41 <zooko> and the second one has been unsuccessfully attacked by the bit-blender-cryptographers of Mars for the last 5 years,

18:41 <zooko> I'm going with the second one every time.

18:41 <amiller> http://bentilly.blogspot.com/2010/08/analysis-vs-algebra-predicts-eating.html

18:41 <zooko> I don't trust math. :-)

18:41 * zooko looks at http://bentilly.blogspot.com/2010/08/analysis-vs-algebra-predicts-eating.html

18:42 <zooko> Running low on battery power... :-/

18:42 <zooko> FWIW I definitely approve of cuckoo getting better-studied.

18:43 <gmaxwell> amiller: yea, bill's handwaving wore me out a long time ago. In general PHC is really bad with the handwaving.

18:43 <zooko> BTW I kind of regret including that crude joke in there. DISREGARD THAT PART.

18:43 <amiller> gmaxwell, so, what is this hypercube kind of thing

18:43 <gmaxwell> There are a few there that are pretty crisp, but the SNR ratio is not good.

18:43 * nsh didn't follow the argument

18:44 <amiller> my understanding of 'memory hard' is that it is supposed to require having a lot of memory, but it doesn't matter if its throughput is utilized

18:44 <amiller> so the bill cox objection is that you can use a parallel algorithm

18:44 <zooko> Well, unfortunately I'm running out of battery, and I need to go spend an hour or two with my dead-trees-and-bricks-and-mortar bank asking them to do the simplest fucking things, like "Don't *both* cancel my card for having been stolen *and* ask me to pay the fraudulent charges".

18:44 <zooko> Dammit.

18:44 <gmaxwell> amiller: what POW wants and what password hashing wants are not one and the same.

18:45 <gmaxwell> E.g. a POW that takes a full second to verify would be a useless anti-ddos cookie, but a ducky kdf for disk encryption.

18:46 <amiller> yes that doesn't seem relevant to this particular attack though

18:47 <gmaxwell> no indeed, just an example though.

18:47 <amiller> ok, i agree with that meta concern, it unfortunately seems to limit how much we can gain from interaction with PHC

18:47 <gmaxwell> Yes, I agree that cuckoo is not well studied; but its actually targeting the right objective (well, assuming you agree that 'memory hard' is useful. :) )

18:47 * zooko lols at predicting corn-eating style http://bentilly.blogspot.com/2010/08/analysis-vs-algebra-predicts-eating.html

18:48 <amiller> ok so, what is the crux of this specific attack on cuckoo's memory hardness

18:48 <zooko> gmaxwell: as far as I can tell Argon2 also meets my objectives.

18:48 <zooko> gmaxwell: and also the authors of it explicitly attempt to address those objectives.

18:48 <amiller> it is about an efficient parallel algorithms for finding the cycles

18:49 <gmaxwell> zooko: argon2's authors are pretty good.

18:49 <amiller> a parallel algorithm that assumes all the data is in memory doesn't seem to inviolate memory-hardness

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18:49 <amiller> it just makes better use of perhaps the parallel memory throughput i guess

18:49 <gmaxwell> zooko: but their cheap verification thing has not really been peer reviewed afaik.

18:50 <amiller> but this 'hypercube' seems to be suggesting something other than a typical memory, where there are smaller memory cells and some kind of routing network between them

18:50 <tromp_> my response to bill on phs list doesn't seem to be getting through

18:50 <gmaxwell> (maybe you've reviewed it, I haven't-- it wasn't part of their original proposal and I didn't get as far as it in their new stuff)

18:51 <zooko> gmaxwell: true.

18:51 <tromp_> maybe awaiting moderation

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18:51 <amiller> tromp_, give us a pastebin link for now?

18:51 <zooko> tromp_: I haven't seen any response from you. I don't think that mailing list is moderated.

18:51 <tromp_> let's see if it's in my gmail sent folder

18:53 <tromp_> I *so* hate trying to cut from gmail messages; once it starts scrolling it immediately zooms way past what yo uwant

18:53 <nsh> software is the price we pay for information

18:54 <zooko> nsh: lol

18:54 <tromp_> http://pastebin.com/yxFwnee0

18:54 <amiller> tromp_, thanks!!

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18:58 <tromp_> Bill seems to think that outlining the parallel implementation of the basic algorithm already detailed in the Cuckoo whitepaper constitutes breaking it

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19:03 <tromp_> Bill responded to my message (which I also sent directly to him), so you might see his reply before my original

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19:05 <zooko> I sometimes avoid Cc:'ing people directly, when replying to lists, in order to avoid that.

19:06 <tromp_> i did that since i have no faith my message will ever make it on that list

19:06 <tromp_> if i did, i would follow that convention:)

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19:08 <zooko> :-)

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19:10 <amiller> tromp_, your response *did* make it to the list http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2015-July/025993.html

19:10 <tromp_> thx; i'll refrain from directly replying to bill in future...

19:13 <amiller> ok bill cox's follow up messages have a lot more detail, it seems that a) he wants to obliterate Momentum first, which is like cuckoo with a degenerate setting... cuckoo paper already points out an attack on this degenerate setting, but bill cox says there is an even worse attack, and it would be good to undersatnd this first and then apply it to nondegenerate settings

19:13 <tromp_> Every time I reply I get "Your message to cryptography awaits moderator approval"

19:14 <tromp_> but Bill is attacking a memory-wasteful implementation of Momentum

19:14 <amiller> b) the crux of the attack is about a different between 'sequential memory hard' which says you shouldn't be able to parallelize it, and

19:15 <tromp_> the edge-trimming cuckoo implementation is the most memory efficient one

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19:16 <zooko> tromp_: Perry Metzger and/or Tamzen Connoy manually moderate every post to that list.

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19:21 <amiller> so unpacking the difference between memory*time (sequentialy memory hard) and memory*work (parallel memory hard)

19:21 <amiller> i guess it's plausible that there are custom parallel memories with particular communication patterns that might outperform commodity dram

19:21 <tromp_> no doubt, but at what cost?

19:23 <tromp_> when you build your sorting hypercube, perhaps to reduce memory latencies for 100s of threads, i expect that will be lots more expensive than just buying a few more dram chips each accessed with a moderate #threads

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19:34 <amiller> im not clear yet one whether hypercube is something you can even build on an asic

19:34 <amiller> or if it's inherently about this thru-silicon-via 3d stack stuff

19:35 <tromp_> a 3D implementation will also need longer connections

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19:41 <gmaxwell> zooko: obviously we need an anti-censorship mail extension where every message commits to the set of messages on the list you've already seen, so people won't accept your message unless they've seen the history too. :)

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19:59 <zooko> Darn. I just figured out that the memory access patterns in Argon2 are utterly predictable, so it is actually bandwidth-oriented instead of latency-oriented.

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20:01 <bramc> A parallel implementation of cuckoo which used the same amount of memory would be a good thing. It would have similar hardness but reduce latency.

20:01 <amiller> zooko, uh, Argon2d is data dependent (unpredictable, good for cryptocurrency), Argon2i is data independent (good for phc so it doesn't leak data about the password)

20:02 <bramc> Has my construction for making password hashing algorithms memory access unpredictable come up on phc?

20:02 <amiller> bramc, well it depends on whether it uses a commodity memory or a customized, in-silicon, hypercube laid-out memory

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20:02 <zooko> amiller: I think the memory access patterns are the same even in the data-dependent version, trhough.

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20:02 <bramc> I came up with it, then realized how profoundly different PoW and password hashing are, then stopped working on it more

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20:04 <bramc> amiller, The question of whether cuckoo's memory can be beaten by asics is an interesting one, but not the same as whether it's busted in terms of being linear in memory

20:04 <amiller> zooko, i don't understand, data dependent memory access == unpredictable memory access pattern or are there two differen things

20:04 <amiller> bramc, the point is that the gold standard for "sequential memory hard" is memory*time, whereas the weaker 'parallel memory hard' is about memory*work, which might be beaten by asic

20:06 <bramc> amiller, Fair enough, but as per usual it comes down to cost of the chips and energy efficiency of the work. Just because the ASIC has lower latency doesn't mean that it wins.

20:06 <zooko> amiller: I'll get back to you after I read and think more.

20:06 <zooko> amiller: for one thing, I think I've been reading the *Argon*, not *Argon2* spec this whole time. Whoops.

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20:12 <bramc> I'd classify cuckoo as mostly a bit-blending approach with a little bit of simple math thrown in

20:13 <zooko> Hm.

20:14 <bramc> Doing web searching it seems like my password hashing mode hasn't even been discussed on phc :-(

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20:35 <zooko> amiller: okay, having looked at the right algorithm, I agree with you that the memory accesses (for read) are unpredictable.

20:35 <zooko> Interesting that the writes are sequential but the reads are unpredictable.

20:35 <zooko> I would have made the write pattern unpredictable as well.

20:35 <zooko> But, I think this is good enough.

20:35 <zooko> So I think that Argon2d is latency-bound more than bandwidth bound.

20:35 <bramc> My construction has both unpredictable reads and writes, and is extremely general about how you fill in the core primitive

20:36 <zooko> bramc: interesting! Maybe you should write it up. :-)

20:36 <bramc> zooko, *sigh* http://bramcohen.com/2014/11/18/a-mode-for-password-hashing

20:36 <nsh> write it up nonsequentially

20:37 <zooko> ;-)

20:38 <amiller> yeah write it up again a few more times

20:38 <nsh> extraneous word here maybe [thing?] "There’s a reversible operation based on the thing data being hashed which munges the internal state and the part of bulk memory referred to, resulting in the pointer referring to a new pseudorandomly selected block of memory."

20:38 <bramc> What it does, in a nutshell, is take a hashing algorithm - it can be any hashing algorithm, like is used to make a feistel network, and makes a password hashing algorithm out of it which has unpredictable reads and writes and has the very nice mathematical property of being time reversible, which obliterates whole categories of potential attacks on the thing

20:39 <bramc> nsh, oh yeah, copy editing problem

20:39 <nsh> how does reversibility mitigate attacks?

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20:39 <nsh> are you turning the whole sparse memory state into a pseudo-random permutation?

20:40 <zooko> bramc: nice and simple. Too bad it wasn't a PHC candidate.

20:40 <bramc> nsh, Roughly yes. The idea is to make it so that there aren't any weak passwords which lose info in weird ways

20:41 * nsh nods

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20:41 <bramc> zooko, I don't have the requisite expertise to fully flesh it out into a whole thing. I was hoping somebody who did would use it as a basis for a fleshed out thing instead of the mashed-together bullshit they usually use

20:43 <bramc> nsh, The general intuition is that most password hashing modes because they're mashing stuff together in a fairly incongruous way have to make steps paralellizable so they don't accidentally lose information. If everything is guaranteed to be reversible you can obliterate the parallelizability

20:44 * nsh nods

20:45 <zooko> Huh, where's the sublinear-verification hack? Not in https://password-hashing.net/submissions/specs/Argon-v2.pdf

20:45 * zooko looks at https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/430

20:45 <amiller> yeah that one

20:45 <zooko> There we go.

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20:47 <bramc> It's sort of like feistel that way. You can worry about your core primitive having good diffusion and not having simple mathematical properties without having to worry in the slightest about whether it's a permutation

20:47 <bramc> In that post I suggest using AES as the function for mashing it up, which I later realized is ridiculous: It's much more akin to a single round of AES

20:49 <bramc> It should probably be called a 'mode', similar to sponge

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21:04 <zooko> amiller: you don't mind if I attribute things to you, like "Andrew Miller pointed out to me that the mining algorithm could allow the winning ticket to be determined (by the miner) *before* computing the Merkle Tree, thus avoiding adding a significant performance advantage for ASIC miners by the addition of the Merkle Tree".

21:04 <zooko> ?

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21:04 <zooko> One risk of me attributing things to you is that I'll get them wrong and then everyone will think you're dumb.

21:04 <amiller> i accept this risk

21:05 <amiller> if any of those turn out to be bad ideas ill just use twitter to blame someone else

21:05 <zooko> Ok.

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21:11 <zooko> Hm.

21:11 <zooko> Actually this one might be one of those things where I'm about to make you sound dumb.

21:11 <zooko> Because

21:12 <zooko> how can a miner know that he's gotten a winning ticket -- which can be verified as a winning ticket by a verifier -- without first computing the Merkle Tree?

21:12 * zooko thinks

21:12 <zooko> One way would be if the criteria for winning was a property of all/most of the *leaves* of the Merkle Tree.

21:13 <zooko> e.g., this wins if all of the leaves (that got picked by the Fiat-Shamir beacon) start with 50 zero bits.

21:13 <zooko> Hm.

21:14 <zooko> Again, to avoid giving an advantage to the miner who is much better at hashing, we should ideally also get our Fiat-Shamir beacon from stuff that the bad-at-hashing

21:14 <zooko> miner already has, instead of, as in https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/430, from the root of the Verification Merkle Tree.

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21:16 <zooko> amiller amiller amiller

21:17 <zooko> bbiab

21:17 <amiller> hm

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21:20 <nsh> hmm

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21:25 <zooko> Yeah, so we can derive the Fiat-Shamir beacon from the leaves directly, or something that doesn't require computing the Merkle Tree.

21:25 <zooko> The only remaining niggling bit is that a naive miner would just keep going until *all* the leaves had 50 zero-bits,

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21:25 <zooko> but a smarter miner checks the Fiat-Shamir beacon to see if it overlooks those of his leaves that don't have 50 zero-bits.

21:26 <zooko> Seems ok.

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21:26 <zooko> I guess computing the Fiat-Shamir beacon is not a big computationally-intensive thing.

21:26 <zooko> I suppose it is secure-hash-of-the-leaves.

21:26 <zooko> Um.

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21:26 <zooko> Secure-hash-of-the-leaves is only 1/2 as intensive as Merkle-Tree-over-all-the-leaves.

21:26 * zooko is uncertain about this part.

21:28 <zooko> Oh, the ... the beacon can be a ...

21:28 * zooko 's brain is melting

21:28 <zooko> Okay, I'll just say it.

21:29 <zooko> The Fiat-Shamir-beacon can be a property local to each leaf, like "This leaf is in the required set if its hash is less than X".

21:29 <zooko> The reason this melts my brain is because ... Because ...

21:29 <zooko> Okay

21:29 <zooko> So yeah, our variant of the Fiat-Shamir transform here is simply "at least 1/2 of your leaves have to start with at least 50 zero bits each".

21:29 <zooko> YAy! Done.

21:29 <kanzure> it seems that you do not use the "think of all possible worlds where you have solved the problem, then pick the optimal world and work backwards" method of thinking

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21:30 <zooko> Okay now I've really got to go persuade my bank that it doesn't make sense to both cancel my card for fraud and also ask me to pay the fraudulent charge or do the work of disputing it.

21:30 <zooko> And while they are at it, please be disrupted out of existence and go get new jobs.

21:32 <nsh> there's probably a sequence of DTMF tones that cancels the bank instead

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23:18 <nsh> .t https://www.wired.com/2015/07/brainflayer-password-cracker-steals-bitcoins-brain/

23:18 <yoleaux> nsh: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name.

23:18 <nsh> .title

23:18 <yoleaux> Brainflayer: A Password Cracker That Steals Bitcoins From Your Brain | WIRED

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23:19 <nsh> (optimised brianwallet cracker that scans blockchain for weak keys. claims to use bloom filter but not clear to me how exactly)

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23:20 <nsh> how many public keys are in UTXO set?

23:21 <phantomcircuit> nsh, brainflayer -> braincancer

23:21 <phantomcircuit> a missed opportunity

23:21 <phantomcircuit> nsh, millions iirc

23:22 <nsh> so could you make a filter for all of them and then run brainwallet hashes past it? not sure what the practical limits are for entries

23:23 <chmod755> phantomcircuit, developed in brainfuck?

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23:24 <phantomcircuit> nsh, you could easily do it

23:24 <nsh> yeah i guess it would be only ~100 megabytes for 10 million keys

23:25 <phantomcircuit> nsh, well and you can do stuff like truncate the hashes and do partial matches

23:25 <phantomcircuit> or even do a bloomfilter

23:25 <phantomcircuit> which iirc some of the cracking software implements for gpu/fpga stuff where memory is highly constrained

23:25 <nsh> right, that's what they've done

23:26 <nsh> i guess making the cost of poor randomness devastatingly clear is good education, if unfortunate for individuals

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23:33 <moa> don't worry next up we have mindwallet

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23:34 <moa> BIP156 Integrated thought patterns for generating deterministic keys

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23:35 <moa> careful you don't lose your mind though

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23:38 <CodeShark> EEG? fMRI? implanted electrodes?

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23:39 <moa> yeah ... think of an memorable image and shazam

23:39 <moa> like your ex-wife taking off with the house

23:40 <CodeShark> lol

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23:43 <bramc> moa You didn't build the house big enough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KC_rd7-bf0

23:45 <CodeShark> then the second time around you can use the image of your ex-wife taking off with your mindwallet

23:46 <moa> starting to sound an inception sequel plot

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23:54 <bramc> There was a book where a footnote said 'I am grateful to Mr. So-and-So for translating this book' followed by a footnote which said 'I am grateful to Mr. So-and-So for translating the preceding footnote'. And a third footnote saying 'I am grateful to Mr. So-and-So for translating the preceding footnote'. There was no fourth footnote, because the third one was copied from the second and didn't require an additional transl

23:54 <bramc> ation.

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23:55 <gmaxwell> fixed point attribution

23:58 <CodeShark> gmaxwell: did you fix your mouse?

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