wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<nsh>
Adlai, are you thinking about multi-signer rings?
<nsh>
the [simplifying] assumption is that one person/alphad generates that whole commitment cycle
<nsh>
so which segment you fake by choosing e nonradonmly is arbitrary
<nsh>
and the best way to pick is at random
<nsh>
(only secure way to pick is at random)
<Adlai>
but the cryptosystem described in that paragraph doesn't depend on that?
<nsh>
in general, you can have groups of signers proving arbitrary monotone functions on their possession of private keys
* Adlai
is trying to understand the paper, not the code
<prosodyContext>
.
<nsh>
in which case each signer would have to pick at random from amongst the e's they contributed
<nsh>
when making the loops
<Adlai>
still, you need to know x_j for the k_j which you generate randomly
<Adlai>
assuming you know only one x_j, you could still pick which e to call "e_0"
<Adlai>
for the signature which you ultimately publish
<nsh>
you publish the whole structure
<Adlai>
The final signature is σ = {e 0 , s 0 , s 1 , . . . , s n−1 }.
<M-_mis>
mwowm
<Adlai>
couldn't that be rephrased as "the signer publishes each s_i and any one of the e_i" ?
<nsh>
yes, that might have avoided some confusion
<Adlai>
although specifying that the published e is e_0 makes clear which s_i matches
<nsh>
it's just symmetry and convention and deficiencies in linear script :)
<Adlai>
Linear C?
<nsh>
i mean, the fact that we express ideas sequentially
<nsh>
you can't efficiently textually convey an ordering symmetry
<nsh>
mathematics and language could be better married, conceivably. though we do amazing well, considering
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<prosodyContext>
(:)
<M-_mis>
(∫)
<M-_mis>
(. _<3 ) )) )*
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<prosodyContext>
... ** an ordering (r)economy?
* nsh
frowns
<prosodyContext>
reconemetry/end
* M-_mis
sings and er or runs amway
<nsh>
is it a special drinking day someone and someone forgot to tell me?
<nsh>
*somewhere
<prosodyContext>
maps.org
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<Adlai>
if you're gonna burn altruistically, there are so many better destinations
<M-_mis>
.. .
<prosodyContext>
_.
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<prosodyContext>
._.
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<prosodyContext>
E_Reconomwy.∫(.._
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<nsh>
prosodyContext, M-_mis if you are human, can you please stop posting nonsense
<nsh>
thanks
<prosodyContext>
nsh, r u raciscnsht? er just heardly hearing?
<justanotheruser>
!ops
<prosodyContext>
I just want to read. Red. Thlog thnk you. tyl
<prosodyContext>
.∫/me /end
<gwillen>
prosodyContext: please stop that
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<gmaxwell>
Adlai: no. e0 is always e0. Changing which E you'd send wouldn't help at all, unless you broke the commitment structure (e.g. by including s values in the commitment) in which case it would leak whick one it was signing.
* dpfs
faceplanted
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<prosodyContext>
Jargon is key, if I may say. It helps to have thlog(? Mwake an engry face if thiz willim getemeff banned.U222b∫(?
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<prosodyContext>
CI
<prosodyContext>
CILL
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<M-_mis>
EILL
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<fluffypony>
kanzure: pong
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<M-Chickee>
So Mis what do you think of Blythe Masters opening two Bitcoin start ups? The French are not happy. Pierre Jonanovic wrote a book I read some but it's all in French and not yet translated into English.
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<M-Chickee>
excuse me? See PM? Sorry FluffyPony.
<fluffypony>
M-Chickee: it's unrelated to you, he was sending me a private message declaring his undying love for traditional Italian thin-crust pizza
<M-Chickee>
Oh i see, excuse me let me get in this general bitcoin room and let the wizards preform your magic. I just like to read this thread. Good day.
<fluffypony>
and good day to you too
<fluffypony>
fare thee well, and may the road always be painted with straight lines, and have legible road signs, and also streetlights that work, and maybe no errant pedestrians
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<M-Chickee>
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<rodarmor>
Your Group Order entitled "Wednesday Lunch " will close in 30 minutes. You have not yet placed an order as part of the Group Order, so your company asked that you receive this email as a reminder. Click here to place your order: http://www.seamless.com Enjoy your meal!
<rodarmor>
whoops, sorry!
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<Adlai>
"group order" seemed on-topic, but things went downhill from there
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<waxwing>
Adlai: :) .. is the ring sig stuff making sense now?
<Adlai>
no, although i haven't looked at it again since last night.
<Adlai>
the general concept makes perfect sense, the drouble is in the details
<waxwing>
i remember struggling with that paragraph too, but maybe for a different reason
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<Adlai>
my confusion can be generalized as "there must be an i-1 SOMEWHERE, else all the arrows just point at the same node they point from"
<Adlai>
which is starting to smell like the kind of confusion best remedied by reading/lwriting code
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<waxwing>
each 'e' is the hash of the 'K' at the index before it (well, not only that, but includes that). that's why i wasn't totally clear about from reading it at first.
<waxwing>
s/why/wasn't/
<Adlai>
there's no uppercase 'K', maybe you mean kG?+
<waxwing>
yeah, K=kG sorry
<waxwing>
it's interesting reading the cryptonote version of the ring sig ... it's a simpler version of the same thing, except they don't use hashes to create causal connections between each node, so seems that's why it needs more data in the sig (all the e-values except one)
<Adlai>
right. so i don't understand why it matters which e you reveal, as long as you make clear 1) the ordering of the s values, and 2) which s value corresponds to the e you revealed, by convention let's call that one s_0
<waxwing>
plus they have the linkability thing
<waxwing>
Adlai: right, it mustn't matter, eh, otherwise it wouldn't be a good ring sig?
<Adlai>
well gmaxwell said otherwise, making me doubt my understanding
<waxwing>
oh ok. i think i read that, but not sure what he was saying...
<waxwing>
oh, maybe he's talking about the borromean aspect, yes
<waxwing>
because in borromean you have to have several rings joining at one node
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* Adlai
hasn't gotten that far yet >:(
<waxwing>
right, you're reading the AOS signature bit.
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<waxwing>
this is exactly how the 'compactifying' of the borr. version works: one hash suffices for all the rings at once, so it has to be e0 that's published.
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<Adlai>
someday when a bitcoin's only price is "10e8 satoshi", there should be an actual monument of borromean rings, so even laypeople can appreciate the weirdness
<waxwing>
:) anway, CCT is the new hotness now ... if i ever get that far :)
<Luke-Jr>
;wap2 is annoying. I hate how Google appears to prefer it.
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<amiller->
im still trying to figure out if/why borromean signature is different than what you can get with generic zero knowledge tools
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<amiller->
i haven't been able to understand the graph with backward time edges and causal loops at all yet Figure 2
<waxwing>
personally i didn't find the graphs that helpful; it's just that since each node commits (hashes) the previous one, you can only go in one direction, except at a node you hold the privkey for.
<amiller->
okay so typically in OR proofs, there's a step where you fix a challenge c
<amiller->
and then you basically have to make up c1 c2 c3 c4 c5 if there are 5 clauses, that all sum to c
<amiller->
you have to include all 5 of those in the signature
<waxwing>
yes, the AOS saves you from that :)
<amiller->
the idea is that for the private keys you don't know, you can have to fix c1 c2 c3 c4 to values you forced yourself into in the commitment phase, if you only know the private key for c5
<amiller->
so it works based on there being like 4 degrees of freedom but then the 5th is a real challenge
<amiller->
okay so using this AOS thing saves that
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<amiller->
i haven't figured out the trick yet - is it also general for any OR statement
<waxwing>
any OR statement in what sense?
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<waxwing>
the trick is just that each node commits to the previous one, which would not allow a complete ring unless you can 'cheat', which you can if you have the private key by moving over to the scalar version of the equation ... choose s in k=s+ex or whatever
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