wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<waxwing>
"Every time someone requests a computation from the Enigma network, he or she pays a bitcoin fee. A tiny part of that money is paid to a computer in the bitcoin network to record Enigma’s metadata in the blockchain"
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<waxwing>
i mean, it doesn't actually exist of course
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<AaronvanW>
waxwing: looks like you might be right. it's confusing because in one article it says it uses technology "inspired by Bitcoin", and in the next it seems to actually use Bitcoin
<waxwing>
it's hard nowadays since blockchain became the word-du-jour .. the journalists tend to just stop there.
<waxwing>
i agree the paper seems to be a bit agnostic
<AaronvanW>
waxwing: well, I am a journalist and I'm actually trying to find out which one it is ;)
<waxwing>
AaronvanW: hah!
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<AaronvanW>
but yeah, it does seem a bit agnostic, I guess that's a pretty good way to put it
<AaronvanW>
might use that :p
<waxwing>
AaronvanW: well in these kind of applications they tend to "fall back" to Bitcoin, although knowing they don't necessarily need to use it, because the stability/security from the hashpower makes it the obvious choice. That's my read.
<waxwing>
this is mainly about MPC though, and what always seemed to kill that off was the enormous interactivity.
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<jonasschnelli>
Does anyone know what keypath Electrums multisig wallet uses? Probably not bip44 conform because it only asks me after a the master pub key (bip44 goes over hardened keys).
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<kanzure>
there are many electrum multisig classes, including some legacy implementations
<kanzure>
which i believe are still kept in the source code, should be easy to dig them up
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<jcorgan>
jonasschnelli: i don't know the exact key path but i do know it is know bip44
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<lmatteis>
is anybody familiar with how Nxt's proof-of-stake system works? i've been studying it in depth for the past week and still have some concerns about its functionality
<lmatteis>
because the forging (aka mining) happens based on which "active account" has most coins (and some other random stuff)
<lmatteis>
but i don't understand what's then stopping someone from simply forging their own chain, sort of pretending they were the only ones online at that moment, and broadcasting such chain
<lmatteis>
what's stopping peers from accepting such chain?
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<Luke-Jr>
lmatteis: probably nothing; ##altcoin-dev though
<lmatteis>
ok
<lmatteis>
even though "This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies"
<lmatteis>
"other peers will reject this 20 blocks chain since they can calculate that the forger forged the blocks before its due time."
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<lmatteis>
that's what i got from the forums
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<lmatteis>
but i mean, time could still be simulated :/
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<tromp_>
if you timestamp blocks with a future time, then they will be either dropped or delayed until the timestamp is reached
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<phantomcircuit>
lmatteis, PoS people have wasted an enormous amount of review time on ever more complicated systems which are still fundamentally broken
<phantomcircuit>
so please dont talk about them here
<andytoshi>
please no NXT discussion here, they have been historically very antagonistic toward the goal of cryptocurrency research
<andytoshi>
oh thx :)
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<lmatteis>
really?
<lmatteis>
i found lots of good research-y papers
<lmatteis>
and i don't see why they would hurt cryptocurrency research
<andytoshi>
lmatteis: yeah, they constantly change their (badly underspecified) design goals and strategies, and publish things that are hard to read and whose ideas have been repeatedly demonstrated to be broken
<andytoshi>
well, they hurt it by wasting researchers' time and energy
<andytoshi>
and they have no reason -not- to do so, it's not like they need that time or energy for anything..
<lmatteis>
weird
<lmatteis>
they seem like a well-minded community, not trying to waste people's time
<andytoshi>
agreed. but they are far from the only ones :/
<nsh>
conversation is good, so more conversation must be better? even if some of the conversation is just people repeating the chant "i know a song that'll get on your nerves, get on your nerves, get on your nerves" but with a variations on the theme of throwing complexity at a hard problem until you can't see why you haven't solved it
<lmatteis>
well to be frank, you're guys counter arguments are also "conversation"... has there been experiments to disproof Nxt's PoS system?
<lmatteis>
*your
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<phantomcircuit>
lmatteis, after the roughly 1000th hour of wasted effort people decided to stop showing them why they're wrong
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<phantomcircuit>
if they would like to pay for review time, im sure they can find someone interested
<phantomcircuit>
but the gravy train of free indepth reviews is long since used up
<lmatteis>
phantomcircuit: ok, so all PoS system so far have lacked the empirical evidence to show their system actually worked?
<phantomcircuit>
lmatteis, they're fundamentally broken by "nothing at stake"
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<phantomcircuit>
and look you made andytoshi leave
<phantomcircuit>
that's how annoying they are
<lmatteis>
i'm not a Nxt user, i'm just trying to understand how a top 10 cryptocurrency is fundamentally broken
<fluffypony>
the larger problem, lmatteis, is that researchers don't have the time and energy to *prove* that something is broken, when their research is typically geared towards figuring out what is not
<fluffypony>
so then you get people who are not cryptographers, who sometimes have their ideas gently put down (and sometimes not-so-gently)
<fluffypony>
and instead of going "ok, I am now going to figure out why that's a dumb idea"
<fluffypony>
they go "ZOMG THEY HATE ME" and barrel ahead with their dumb idea
<lmatteis>
i agree. if it's a silly project that nobody backs, who cares. there's tons of silly ideas in the world
<fluffypony>
they take it as a personal affront, which it is not (I have dumb ideas all the time, I'm only offended when those smarter than I *don't* put that out to me)
<lmatteis>
but Nxt is backed by actual money, wouldn't you agree?
<fluffypony>
so you're saying that there have never been people that have put money into companies without understanding the deep technical intricacies of the company's product?
<phantomcircuit>
lmatteis, money doesn't make things smart; see ripple/stellar
<fluffypony>
yup
<lmatteis>
ok
<lmatteis>
not just money, popularity, wiki pages, blog posts and articles
<fluffypony>
cryptocurrency is a particularly bad spot, because the investment is not coming from measured, intelligent investors who are risk averse
<fluffypony>
it's from seat-of-the-pants investors who think they're going to see many-thousands-of-percent increases in a short space of time
<fluffypony>
it's the new VC gig, cheaper and faster than building a startup into a slightly larger husk and then exiting
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<lmatteis>
don't you find it weird that, given the idea's popularity, we haven't seen empirical evidence that shows its flaws?
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<lmatteis>
i mean, we're not talking about just a bad company or startup
<lmatteis>
but an idea that powers several cryptos, no?
<fluffypony>
there's not enough market capitalisation to make it interesting to the really motivated attackers
<lmatteis>
phantomcircuit: i read that a while ago, and highlights lots of interesting points. not with evidence though :(
<phantomcircuit>
lmatteis, nobody has time to break version 1020202 of nxt
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<phantomcircuit>
since they'll just modify things and call it 1020203
<kanzure>
nobody would accept the results of a limited break of proof-of-stake
<kanzure>
they will say "oh, well we can just add this extra dongle here and your hax no longer haxors"
<lmatteis>
phantomcircuit: ah i didn't even know they do that
<fluffypony>
yup, layering complexity
<phantomcircuit>
lmatteis, their entire business is built around making it difficult to analzye the underlying protocol
<phantomcircuit>
and when someone does find a break
<kanzure>
the point is that most minimum modifications to proof-of-stake are trivially beatable; this is not effortlessly beatable, but rather constantly beatable. it's not impressive to have something that you can make hard in a small amount of constant time, that's totally pointless and infuriating.
<phantomcircuit>
they simply modify the entire protocol to make it more complicated and harder to understand
<lmatteis>
ah wow ok
<kanzure>
yes, of course nobody is going to sit here and endlessly break all constant-time additions someone makes to proof-of-stake -_- duh
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<kanzure>
i don't think anyone would accept a minimum-viable attack against proof-of-stake, because they will just say "proof-of-stake has already been modified to be slightly different". do you disagree that it would still be worthile ?
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<kanzure>
*worthwhile
<fluffypony>
it's like continuing to use MD5 but just using a longer salt :-P
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<kanzure>
fluffypony: except nobody will complain that "well md5 is still safe if you use a 1024-bit salt"
<fluffypony>
yeah, people get stupider when there's money and the hope of profit
<fluffypony>
sigh, much greed
<lmatteis>
ok the differences didn't seem that subtle
<lmatteis>
i actually thought it worked and wanted to know how
<lmatteis>
like i thought it was a working alternative to PoW
<lmatteis>
but i guess not
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<kanzure>
lmatteis: it depends on what you mean by working.
<fluffypony>
it does work, as long as the only attackers are rank amateurs
<lmatteis>
a system that has been proven to work... that resisted the use of many different types of attacks for many years without having to change the protocol in a major way
<kanzure>
alternatively: "or it does work, if your concern about security is sufficiently strange"
<lmatteis>
i also find it interesting, more theoretically, that Nxt uses a different distribution scenario where all coins are distributed at first, and then just moved around via transaction fees
<lmatteis>
(apart from PoS this is)
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<phantomcircuit>
lmatteis, they resist analysis not attack
<phantomcircuit>
which is all you need for marketing it to suckers
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<leakypat>
6:33 AM <fluffypony> it's from seat-of-the-pants investors who think they're going to see many-thousands-of-percent increases in a short space of time
<leakypat>
^
<fluffypony>
also see: Darkcoin/Dash, Maidsafe, Ethereum
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