wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<amiller>
weird
<amiller>
has anyone been puzzled by the difference between unspent-transaction-outputs like in Bitcoin, and "accounts" like in Ethereum?
<amiller>
it's just a minor data structure difference, so it seems like it shouldn't matter one way or the other
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<amiller>
probably everyone will work out that there might be a utxo storage savings to have with ethereum-style account balances if addresses are reused a lot, and in bitcoin we're supposed to encourage fresh addresses mostly
<amiller>
here's the new weird observation - the bitcoin transaction graph data structure would be well suited to an even weaker asynchronous network where transactions we're even totally ordered in blocks
<gmaxwell>
amiller: "zomg use accounts" is a common ignorant newbie mistake; missing e.g. the requirement to avoid replay vulnerablity; once you engineer in the replay immunity and the ability to selectively conflict inputs, and privacy then they're very close.
<gmaxwell>
Weren't even totally ordered in blocks? indeed-- well if not for double spending bitcoin would work fine without the blockchain at all. :)
<amiller>
there are some well studied traditional (e.g., a PKI and fixed set of N nodes) asynchronous protocols for 'multi-valued consensus' that could gurantee eventual global agreement on how each transaction output gets spent
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<amiller>
*but*, if there are two possible conflicting transactions propagating around, it is possible that the utxo gets marked with a default/unspendable value rather than a transaction
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<Eliel>
amiller: I considered a system where double spends would be solved by simply burning the conflicting coins, but then abandoned the idea since I thought that might discourage the use of the system at all.
<amiller>
Eliel, hmm, was the system different in any other ways? why did you want to solve double spends that way?
<Eliel>
amiller: yes, I was considering alternate ways to deal with double spends as a thought experiment.
<Eliel>
can't really speak of a single system though. I didn't go that far.
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<Eliel>
I was wondering if you could relax the requirement of a chain and allow a tree that forks and joins.
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<Eliel>
the main problem was that if you do that, you'd need some clear points in the graph that after which you can no longer make coins vanish.
<nsh>
what happens if you don't have a cut-off?
<Eliel>
well, imagine someone leaks their private key and someone makes a double spend for a transaction they made a year ago
<nsh>
(but instead, e.g., allow redundant paths with threshold to validate spending tip)
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<nsh>
we could picture a DAG ledger basis where as long as there is a single unvalidated flow that equals or exceeds that total transaction amount then it remains valid, and participants can reshore the transaction by adding new inputs as old inputs become more fragile
<nsh>
this is not SPV friendly i think
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<Eliel>
although SPV friendlyness could perhaps be restored to a degree if merkle hash tree storing transactions was included in each node of the "consensus" tree.
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<Eliel>
I wonder if there's an efficient way to compare if there are any conflicts in 2 such merkle hash trees when their common ancestor is known.
<nsh>
andytosh1 might know
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<nsh>
--
<nsh>
I'm pleased to announce the release of Incremental (well commented mli here), a powerful library for building self-adjusting computations, i.e., computations that can be updated efficiently when their inputs change.
<nsh>
At its simplest, you can think of a self-adjusting computation as a fancy spreadsheet. In a spreadsheet, each cell contains either simple data, or an equation that describes how the value in this cell should be derived from values in other cells. Collectively, this amounts to a graph-structured computation, and one of the critical optimizations in Excel is that when some of the cells change, Excel only recomputes the parts of the graph that depend on tho
<nsh>
se changed cells.
<nsh>
What makes self-adjusting computation (or SAC) different from a spreadsheet is its dynamism. The structure of the computational graph in an SAC can change at runtime, in response to the changing input data.
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<ajweiss>
this looks like a framework for defining message passing semantics for graphical probabilistic models to me...
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<nsh>
ajweiss, hmm?
<ajweiss>
this incremental stuff...
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<ajweiss>
i've only done a little bit with graphical modeling, but when i played around it was all about a big graph of random variables with conditional dependencies.. after updating one you'd walk the graph and update the appropriate depedent nodes...
<nsh>
ah, right
<ajweiss>
they called it message passing, which i always thought was a bit confusing since that has many other very different meanings
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