#bitcoin-wizards on 2015-07-21 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-06-27 08:24 wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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02:50 <gmaxwell> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1129388.0 someone else presenting single show signatures as a solution to doublespending.

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05:10 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] ehm

05:10 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] lamport signature security also only generally halves with every subsequent re-signing

05:11 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] if i remember right

05:11 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] so you have to sign a bunch of times to make it totally insecure

05:12 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] you can also just spend your outpoint with a 0 value and give the whole thing to fees if you're really mad at whoever you're sending it to, or pass them the private key so they can do that too

05:13 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] it's not really a solution to doublespends, just a way to maybe disincentivize it a little more

05:17 <gmaxwell> tacotime: no it falls of much faster than havling.

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05:18 <CodeShark> if we're going to go that route, let's just make it a protocol rule that any miner that can include proof of a double spend in a block gets to keep half the coins and the other half is destroyed

05:18 <CodeShark> why resort to crypto hacks?

05:18 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] gmaxwell: well, it depends on the message chosen by the attacker..

05:18 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: I pointed that out.

05:18 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] or published in general

05:18 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] with an inverse message, one extra publication breaks it, right?

05:19 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/2640/lamport-signature-how-many-signatures-are-needed-to-forge-a-signature

05:19 <gmaxwell> tacotime: the data being signed is a hash. The security falls off much faster than half per signature even if the signed values are uniform.

05:19 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] on average it's /=2 though i thought

05:20 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] well, yeah, if m is a hash

05:21 <gmaxwell> M is always a hash for both pratical reasons and security reasons.

05:21 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] in application, yeah.

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05:25 <gmaxwell> Perhaps you meant to say the the security is square-rooted with each successive additional signature? that would be a reasonable approximation.

05:27 <gmaxwell> in any case, one can easily construct an N-show signature; e.g. one which is completely secure unless its signed with more than N times.

05:28 <gmaxwell> but what utility that has is ... anyones' guess. :)

05:28 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] ehm. maybe our nomenclature is being confused. on average, if you had 256-bits of security in terms of your ability to forge a signature, with 1 subsequent publication you it drops to 128-bits, another 64-bits, another 32-bits...

05:29 <CodeShark> the square root of a 256-bit number is 128-bits

05:29 <CodeShark> the square root of a 128-bit number is 64 bits

05:29 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] because there is an 1-in-2 probability of revealing the private key bits for any randomly generated message that was being signed (we assume the output is pseudorandom if it's a hash)

05:29 <gmaxwell> That isn't halving the security. Halving it would be going from 256 to 255 bits and so on. Thats a decrease by a factor of 2^128, then 2^64... it's taking the sqrt of work to forge a signature.

05:29 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] oh... yeah, then it's nomenclature. that's what i meant.

05:30 <gmaxwell> When you said "bunch of times" I thought you were saying e.g. 64 times... rather than like .. 4. :)

05:31 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] oh, heh, no. it halves the exponent, which is the same as taking the square root, you're right.

05:31 <gmaxwell> If you can do chosen messages you can hurt much more, even if getting an inverse is infeasable, though at the 128 bit security level it doesn't make a huge difference.

05:32 <gmaxwell> but for 1024 bit it would make a pretty big difference.

05:32 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] right. i think this lamport signature stuff came up forever ago for bitcoin too, like early 2014 or 2013.

05:32 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] i don't think anyone ever thought there was a practical application.

05:33 <CodeShark> in any case, strongly relying on specific peculiarities of a specific signature scheme for the security of the protocol is probably a terrible idea longterm

05:33 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] at least, not in the realm of making tx instantaneous or something.

05:34 <gmaxwell> Single show signatures have been indpendantly proposed for "preventing double spends" three times in this channel's history, in fact.

05:35 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] lol. i thought of it too a while ago, but then just thought "why not just send the recipient the private key so he can burn you if you try to steal it?"

05:35 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] it's a lot less work

05:36 <gmaxwell> well, incompatible with secure recept of change.

05:36 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] right.

05:37 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] you'd have to make an output of exactly the amount you wanted to send, then wait for it to be embedded in the blockchain, making the whole effort pointless.

05:37 <gmaxwell> but with CPFP and cooperative income optimizing miners, RBF scortched earth gets you the same outcome and no cooperation with the sender is required.

05:38 <gmaxwell> which gives you an economically idenical (arguably not very useful) outcoime.

05:38 <gmaxwell> er outcome.

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05:39 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] yeah. i always considered the doublespending issue to be more or less intractable, i don't know if a lot of recent advances have been made into the area since i last looked.

05:40 <CodeShark> retroactive invalidation means either coins must be locked down until the timewindow to invalidate expires...or it means all descendants risk being reversed

05:41 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] i know i've seen lightning throw around "instant transactions", but i'm not sure how their solution works around the issue.

05:41 <CodeShark> lightning works around the issue by requiring proactive invalidation

05:42 <CodeShark> you must watch the blockchain and react within a timewindow if the counterparty does not cooperate

05:42 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] ah

05:42 <gmaxwell> tacotime: instant transactions are no problem at all and require no invalidation.

05:43 <CodeShark> as long as the parties cooperate, instant transactions are possible...but it does require one to anchor at least one transaction in the blockchain

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05:43 <CodeShark> so it's sort of like a debit card

05:43 <CodeShark> you need to make a deposit and wait for it to confirm - then you can make instant transactions

05:43 <gmaxwell> what lightning needs invalidation for is to make the channels bidirectional.

05:45 <gmaxwell> (so that you can be sure the final state of the channel is what gets comitted to and not some penultimate state)

05:45 <CodeShark> well, there are two kinds of invalidation - one is by making it more appealing for the counterparty to sign and publish the later transaction...the other is by making the later transaction invalidation period shorter

05:45 <CodeShark> the first one isn't really strictly invalidation

05:45 <CodeShark> but one can think of it as such - it strongly incentivizes throwing away one transaction in favor of another

05:46 <CodeShark> the latter also isn't strictly invalidation

05:47 <CodeShark> but the counterparty stands to lose everything were they to publish the first transaction

05:47 <gmaxwell> none of which is required for instant transactions.

05:48 <CodeShark> it's the threat that's important

05:48 <CodeShark> ideally, both parties cooperate and close out the channel gracefully

05:48 <gmaxwell> No. All of this is irrelevant for instant transactions.

05:49 <CodeShark> trustless irreversible instant transactions?

05:49 <gmaxwell> Yes, irrelevant to that.

05:49 <CodeShark> howso?

05:50 <gmaxwell> It is only needed to make the micropayment channel bidirectional (which makes it possible to leave it open much longer and such, and reduce the amount of total funds locked up and such.. all great, but not requirements for instant transactions)

05:50 <gmaxwell> CodeShark: a _plain_ micropayment hub gives trivial instant transactions and needs none of those mechenisms.

05:50 <CodeShark> right, like I said, the other "invalidation" mechanism is simply paying the counterparty more in the second transaction than the first

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05:51 <CodeShark> but yes, in this case you don't need proactive measures

05:51 <CodeShark> or reactive measures, rather

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05:52 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] when you say 'plain' micropayment hub, what are we referring to?

05:53 <CodeShark> unidirectional payment channels

05:53 <CodeShark> you replace transaction A with transaction B simply by paying the counterparty more in transaction B

05:53 <CodeShark> and only the counterparty can sign

05:53 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] oh

05:53 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] like on the wiki?

05:54 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contract#Example_7:_Rapidly-adjusted_.28micro.29payments_to_a_pre-determined_party

05:55 <CodeShark> yes - but note that even in this situation failure to cooperate potentially results in funds being tied up until some invalidation expiration time

05:55 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] right

05:57 <CodeShark> and it still requires reactive measures to ensure funds are not lost

05:58 <phantomcircuit> which is generally fine as long as there is a reasonable window of time in which to act and the action can be outsourced

06:00 <CodeShark> the reason these ideas can work is that cooperation is the equilibrium strategy

06:00 <CodeShark> but that's only because both parties have recourse in the event of lack of cooperation from the other party

06:02 <phantomcircuit> yup

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06:05 <CodeShark> there's an inherent tradeoff between the risk of funds being tied down and the need to react quickly

06:05 <CodeShark> to avoid loss

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06:08 <CodeShark> but it does effectively allow retroactive invalidation (in the equilibrium scenario)

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18:38 <jonasschnelli> Is it possible to implement a socket authentication based on ECDSA? Example:...

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18:38 <jonasschnelli> Client knows a ec pubkey of server.

18:39 <jonasschnelli> Server only want's to talk with clients who know a/the pubkey (a bip32 special keypath like m/123'123')

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18:41 <jonasschnelli> Sending a challenge/nonce from the client to the server, sign on the server and verify on the client would be possible. though...

18:42 <MRL-Relay> [othe] did you look at bitauth?

18:43 * jonasschnelli is looking at bitpays bitauth

18:44 <jonasschnelli> MRL-Relay: looks interesting. It's probably ECDH in the background and not ECDSA.

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18:45 <jonasschnelli> The thing is, with RSA i would just encrypt a hash of the whole request with the pubkey and decrypt the hash on the server and verify... but with EC it seems not possible (at least not with ECDSA)

18:47 <MRL-Relay> [othe] its based on the sin stuff from jgarzik imho (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Identity_protocol_v1) which uses ecdsa and a master pub key

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18:48 <jonasschnelli> sounds interesting... looking at it

18:50 <jonasschnelli> MRL-Relay: thanks for the info!

18:50 <MRL-Relay> [othe] no problem

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19:32 <jonasschnelli> MRL-Relay: it seems that you know the bitauth system. As far as i see responses are not signed in any way. How would this prevent a MITM attack (temper the response)?

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19:37 <MRL-Relay> [othe] from what i remember it signs each request and also includes a nonce against replay attacks, but i am not too familar with it

19:38 <jonasschnelli> If i'm right the nonce only prevents a MITM attack where an attacker tampers the request and resends it.

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19:39 <MRL-Relay> [othe] no every nonce is valid once

19:39 <MRL-Relay> [othe] the server checks if the nonce was already used

19:41 <jonasschnelli> Yeah. Right. But someone (MITM) could fetch the response and change it's body.

19:46 <MRL-Relay> [othe] everything is signed, url+request body etc, how would u change sth

19:52 <jonasschnelli> MRL-Relay: the request is signed and therefore tamper prove. But i could change the the response from the server to the client if i'm able to do MITM?

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20:11 <MRL-Relay> [othe] i bet thats also signed ;)

20:14 <jonasschnelli> on the current codebase it's not...

20:18 <MRL-Relay> [othe] pretty sure the client checks the signature and compares the pubkey with the sin received at the first handshake or sth like that - u are better of asking jgarzik tho :) i just looked it when it came out

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23:13 <roasbeef> jonasschnelli: sounds like a use case for some form of EC-based PAKE (password authenticated key exchange)

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