wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<go1111111>
anyone know who the 'belcher' person is who was asking yesterday if there was a summary of anti-XT arguments? i'd like to contact him as I'm working on a very similar project intending to present the best arguments on each side
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<nsh>
what is the minimum requirements given current knowledge of ZKP and secure multiparty computation to implement say a two-player public coin rock-paper-scissors game with no cheating and stake, sans trusted third party?
<nsh>
assuming for a moment that there are no blockchains being tended
<gmaxwell>
without stake I think that is impossible.
<gmaxwell>
One player always has at least a one bit knoweldge advantage and can quit the protocol if he sees he's going to lose.
<nsh>
right
<nsh>
i'm trying to figure the minimum requirements for staking without a trusted adjudicating party
<nsh>
all the practical protocols i can see are blockchain dependent, but is there some more skeletal DMMS scheme that would achieve the same ends
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<kang_>
nsh: it is impossible given the current algorithms
<nsh>
can you elaborate?
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<kang_>
Except the blockchain, there is no method where two parties can exchange private keys without trusting each other. Because, like gmaxwell said, somebody has to go first and that means advantage.
<gmaxwell>
kang_: thats stated a bit absolutely. e.g. timelock encryption bypasses this issue.
<kang_>
You can consider a state of rock-paper-scissor as a private key . Now they need to exchange it with each other but noone should be able to see results before others.
<kang_>
gmaxwell: Yes, blockchain is the first algorithm I know which enables this
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<gmaxwell>
'blockchain' and timelock encryption are completely different things; ... and timelock encryption of varrious (not awesome) times has existed for a long time (I think since the 70s)
<gmaxwell>
kang_: even the invocation blockchain does not solve it without a stake; which is what nsh asked about.
* nsh
nods
<fluffypony>
go1111111: Christ Belcher, the guy from JoinMarket
<kang_>
A 3of3 bitcoin address where a thirdparty exchange holds a key. Same with a litecoin address. Now when the exchange sees that balance has reached both the addresses, & both parties agree they have each other's keys, it gives away its keys to respective parties.
<go1111111>
fluffypony: thanks
<kang_>
Is there an algo prior to blockchains, where you could give me your private key & I become its new owner with certainity that you can't use it anymore? Even the blockchain doesnt do this, but achieves this, by you announcing to the world that you transfer all the rights held by your private key to mine.
<kang_>
The blockchain also achieves this through other methods, eg sidechains
<nsh>
asset ownership by transferable signing rights predates bitcoin
<kang_>
nsh: how? If so, lets use it to send my bitcoin private key to you so as to solve the scalability problem.
<nsh>
feel free to solve all your problems by sending me bitcoin privkeys ;)
<kang_>
Ya, but I'll have a copy. That's the whole issue. You cant be sure they belong to you & you only.
<fluffypony>
key revocation
<nsh>
it's only an issue until one of use shuffles the inputs to new addresses
<nsh>
revocation is basically a transaction in bitcoin
<kang_>
"<nsh> asset ownership by transferable signing rights predates bitcoin" Give me an algo, not using blockchains, where you will assert ownership to my key.
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<ebfull>
what is the latest design draft of the lightning network?
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<kanzure>
.wik siphash
<yoleaux>
"SipHash is an Add-Rotate-Xor (ARX) based family of pseudorandom functions created by Jean-Philippe Aumasson and Daniel J. Bernstein in 2012." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SipHash
<CodeShark>
Looks like it spawns a thread that eats cpu performing simple linear transformations on global vars, then peeks into the global vars in the initial thread.
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<CodeShark>
doesn't seem like anything you'd ever want to do - the algorithm sucks and the implementation sucks
<CodeShark>
I should say affine rather than linear to be accurate
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<CodeShark>
Either way, seems highly dependent on your CPUs and your system task scheduler...and eats up CPU without really providing a good system-independent entropy source
<CodeShark>
But perhaps I'm misreading it :p
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<CodeShark>
If it were two slightly detuned oscillators with the frequency difference depending on some external entropy (i.e. thermal noise) and sampled periodically, it could make sense. But two cpus subject to your system's task scheduler? hmmm
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<TD-Linux>
Luke-Jr, yeah depending on your scheduler, that may be 100% deterministic
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<kanzure>
hmm "Adding some more background to why I think simulations are harmful. I actually used to do a lot of research work with simulations. Model a network topology, introduce latency (just like Gavin is doing in the simulator), and so on. We, and by we I mean the entire research community working on wireless networks of embedded devices, learned the hard way that our simulations were basically meaningless. A protocol that worked in a ...
<kanzure>
... simulator wouldn't work in real-life. That's one of the main reasons why PlanetLab exists and why it got the SIGCOMM test of time award. In the past 10+ years basically any significant real networked system developed by research labs / universities was deployed and tested on PlanetLab. It is a 1000x better than doing simulations."
<kanzure>
didn't know that this is what planetlab was
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<leakypat>
I am going to look into it more and also see if anyone is seriously pursuing this, it could be a good platform for generating repeatable test data and then opening up the results for everyone to analyze
<leakypat>
Or having some system to reserve time on their network etc.
<amiller>
so i spent a lot of time working on a simulator that was recently presented
<amiller>
but, we unfortunately never got to the point that it looks like a realistic model for anything
<amiller>
that would still take a lot more work
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<amiller>
our effort was spent on getting the technical stuff to work, where you can run the real bitcoin source code rahter htan some made up code you hope is accurate, and run it pretty scalably on a big server or small cluster
<amiller>
maybe we could try to figure out the latency between nodes in the network, and account for the pool nodes and the miner relay backbone and all the other stuff, but that would be a lot more work
<leakypat>
So planet lab is not a simulator if i understand correctly , it would be as if we deployed a parallel network of nodes across the globe and could measure the performance
<amiller>
yeah, as i understand it you have to apply and get permission to use those resources, it's basically adminstered by a league of university folks
<leakypat>
ie get all metrics for any node and the relevant network data
<amiller>
they have some kind of limited resource per node so i'm not even sure if you can install Bitcoin-core on what you get
<leakypat>
I wonder if their platform is open source
<amiller>
espeically if you wanted 40gb per node
<amiller>
to dl the whole blockchain
<leakypat>
Yep, but we might be able to fund something similar
<leakypat>
Also I could imagine using pseudo nodes and isolating things like block relay under 100s of different conditions etc
<leakypat>
Simulating a selfish miner attack
<leakypat>
Running with Tor/ without Tor
<leakypat>
For arrays of block sizes then analyzing the regional data
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<leakypat>
That wouldn't use so much of their resources
<leakypat>
No need for full blockchain dl (although that would be a another good metric)
<leakypat>
For example here are the repeatable tests for bip101
<leakypat>
Just a personal testing diary basically
<leakypat>
No process
<leakypat>
For any of the proposed BIPs would need much more exhaustive data and testing plus analysis of data by multiple parties/ verification of tests etc
<amiller>
it would be great if planet lab was an open platform
<amiller>
like an open distributed EC2 sort of thing where the resources are administered by whoever you choose
<leakypat>
Ok, well il ask around and I might get in contact with them, I am tempted to drop what I am working on and pursue this, as it seems to me to be one of the most important things to have