wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
ryanxcharles has joined #bitcoin-wizards
airbreather has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
airbreather has joined #bitcoin-wizards
airbreather_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
NewLiberty has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
hearn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Quanttek has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
justanotheruser has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
spinza has quit [Excess Flood]
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c-cex-yuriy has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
hearn has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
btcdrak has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
sausage_factory has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
moa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ClipperClap has quit [Quit: Peace...]
sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
copumpkin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
ClipperClap has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bedeho has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
drue has joined #bitcoin-wizards
opernator has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
* opernator
slaps opernator around a bit with a large trout
opernator has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
airbreather_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
NewLiberty has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<gmaxwell>
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987679 somewhat tangental but the highest post there talks about flood fill, resource controls, and liability contributing to usenet's demise. (I can say as someone who ran an NNTP server in the mid 90s that the resource usage was a huge issue, even without the binaries groups)
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<gmaxwell>
perhaps a point to reflect on for lmatteis-of-perpetual-POS-questions, we had a decenteralized reddit in the 90s, and it failed.
<gmaxwell>
(for the most part)
<jcorgan>
and moderated Fidonet echomail wasn't much better
zooko has joined #bitcoin-wizards
snthsnth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
copumpkin has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
maaku_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<waxwing>
gmaxwell: isn't that comment by the guy who wants bitcoin to die in a fire ? :)
dc17523be3 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<gmaxwell>
Stross? who knows-- but they basically also reflect my experience (I hadn't considered any parallels there much before seeing the comment).
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<waxwing>
yes i liked usenet even with the crazies and yes it died because it made no allowances for "normals" .. so far all decentralized things have been like that but hope springs eternal :)
<CodeShark>
dunno if it's just me but I find it ironic that we've finally come upon something that is not only rooted in cryptography, but also shows promise in allowing us to create direct economic incentives that can enforce policies on such networks...and rather than trying to fundamentally solve these incentive issues, a bunch of folks are just trying to fill it up with junk
dc17523be3 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<CodeShark>
thanks for bringing this up, gmaxwell
<CodeShark>
the parallel is quite stark
<CodeShark>
decentralized networks rooted on the good intentions of a minority of users probably can't last very long
<CodeShark>
we'll either get a big crunch or a heat death...not an equilibrium state
<gmaxwell>
bitcoin does have more protectie measures in it than usenet did.
<CodeShark>
initially the incentives were almost perfect...but as time goes on I fear they only get worse
<gmaxwell>
At least for the time being. Maybe. So perhaps thats ... something?
<CodeShark>
if you can't stop people from doing stuff by moderation and censorship, the only approach left is to make it too costly
lmatteis has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<CodeShark>
or at least that's what it seems like
<lmatteis>
gmaxwell: well my idea for Kudos was to prevent the Usenet spam using scarce tokens that can only be generated via mining
<lmatteis>
but more than reputation, i was looking into a way of how to make content inside a DHT "stand out"
<CodeShark>
something like page rank?
<lmatteis>
for example, in the bittorrent DHT there's huge amounts of data that is only retrievable if you have the "key" (of the DHT key-value). so you still need the magnet links. the blockchain, and the scarce tokens it generates, could be used to rate certain key-value items. so now the blockchain is a tracker, which can't be brought down
<lmatteis>
CodeShark: hrm not really? what do you mean
<CodeShark>
a metric based on how frequently something is referenced by others
<CodeShark>
and who those others are (recursively)
<lmatteis>
well the DHT is not really a graph like the web
<CodeShark>
right - I'm thinking more like a DAG
<lmatteis>
CodeShark: so you mean you'd crawl the Web for that?
Cory has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
<CodeShark>
no, just thinking abstractly
Guyver2 has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<lmatteis>
ah, right. but then you still have spammers in the DAG, referencing content thousands of times to make them more relavant
<lmatteis>
(and increase their page rank)
<CodeShark>
right - but if there's a cost to referencing perhaps it can limit the potential for attacks
<CodeShark>
or a cost to something
<CodeShark>
haven't really thought it through :p
<CodeShark>
if it's free to create zillions of identities that all say "this is great" it obviously won't work
<lmatteis>
right, and that's why i looked into scarce tokens via blockchain
<lmatteis>
obvious problem is that one can only upvote (or give a token to someone) for as many tokens i have. so if i have 5 tokens, i can only upvote 5 times :/
<lmatteis>
but maybe that's a good thing. users would be incentivized to post relevant content and get more points they can use
<CodeShark>
you need to build "reputation" by putting up the cost to generate something scarce...or by getting others to vouch for you
<CodeShark>
it's really looking like it comes down to economics
<CodeShark>
infonomics :p
<lmatteis>
right
<lmatteis>
but anyway, marrying a blockchain with bittorrent's DHT seems like an interesting exercise
<lmatteis>
to get rid of the tracker/search-engine (PirateBay) point of failure
<CodeShark>
bedeho is trying to do that with joystream
<CodeShark>
and I think there are another couple projects along those lines
<lmatteis>
ah cool
<lmatteis>
joystream is more for paying seeding. my thinking was more for content discovery (or torrent discovery)
<CodeShark>
right - that's true. but the key thing is the exploration of blockchain + DHT...the use cases will follow
<CodeShark>
the ability to incorporate cryptographic settlement guarantees into the protocols themselves...powerful concept
<jcorgan>
up/down votes do need to be scarce to have value. Gallagher (comedian) promoted the idea that everyone be give five darts per month to be shot at cars of those who drive like assholes. Those who had five darts on their car would be forbidden to drive until the next month. Funny, but only because it reflects the idea of scarcity in opinionating on others.
<CodeShark>
heh
davi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<CodeShark>
so you could either stick the keys directly into a censorship-resistant database with an intrinsic scarce token (i.e. a blockchain)...or you might just directly request such keys from a bunch of peers and pay the peers that give you good ones...or...hmmm....
<CodeShark>
since it costs something to request stuff (even if it's a tiny amount per request) this will naturally limit spam
<CodeShark>
you could also have a peer discovery mechanism based on this
<lmatteis>
also there's a problem that up/down voting is different from transacting currency: usually in social voting you shoul only want to upvote content once. with money transfer, you're not limited to this
<lmatteis>
i was thinking of combating this with what i call "universal constant amounts". so the network only accepts transactions of a fixed value. so you can only send 1 token to a peer, and also a constant fee (of also say 1 token)
<lmatteis>
this would also make impractical the use of these tokens for economical use - i don't want points to be exchanged for money
<CodeShark>
so you want them to be nontransferrable?
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<CodeShark>
other than via specific transaction types that are highly restricted?
<lmatteis>
no i do, but in limited amounts (or constant amounts)
davi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<lmatteis>
i need to make voting somewhat expensive (as in with a constant fee) or else someone can just create n addresses and make their own content relevant by just transferring large amounts of tokens (simulating upvotes) to each of their addresses
<CodeShark>
but don't you end up with a sybil problem again?
<lmatteis>
with constant fees, they'll eventually run out of points by doing this
<CodeShark>
transferring large amounts of tokens between addresses you own will cost you something, though
<CodeShark>
presumably there are other participants in the network that might also take fees for things like message routing and what not
<CodeShark>
in the case of bitcoin, fees go nondeterministically to some miner
<CodeShark>
in the case of ripple, some tokens are destroyed
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<lmatteis>
yeah. so fees would go back into circulation
<lmatteis>
just like bitcoin. but i don't want users to send like 50 tokens to a post. and that's why i have constant fees. so to send 50 tokens he'd need to break it into 50 transactions (each sending 1 token, if 1 is the constant amount)
<CodeShark>
hmm, so it forces a more proportional fee to the value rather than the size of the transaction
<CodeShark>
yeah, that's an interesting point
<lmatteis>
also, it would incentivize people to not reuse addresses (if you want a single address with lots of points, and therefore build a reputation)
<CodeShark>
yeah, to incentivize that you need to make one address with reputation 2 worth more than two addresses with reputation 1
<CodeShark>
or something like that
<CodeShark>
but there could be some centralization tendencies in this
<CodeShark>
a small number of addresses accruing disproportionately large amount of influence
<CodeShark>
so there needs to be some balance
<lmatteis>
yeah, and in fact i need to stress that it's just a number
<lmatteis>
it's not really reputation, it's just a number you have that allows you to give numbers to other people and make content relevant in the DHT
davi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<lmatteis>
but i guess it could tend to be used as reputation. also because the proof of things you said is inside the blockchain, so that could have interesting outcomes
davi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<lmatteis>
but anyway, there's also disproportional amounts happening in systems like Reddit or Stackoverflow
<lmatteis>
most first stackoverflow users have unproportional large reputation points
<lmatteis>
because back then it was just easier to get points
<CodeShark>
right - the amount of points available for distribution should be related to the number of users on the system...or something
<CodeShark>
hmmm
<CodeShark>
there's probably someone somewhere that's researched this far more than I have :p
<CodeShark>
but you might be right - these tokens might have significantly different properties than a typical currency
<CodeShark>
for starters, they don't seem very fungible
<CodeShark>
one good source is worth far more than a thousand extremely crappy ones
<CodeShark>
the value is not additive
<CodeShark>
in fact, extremely crappy sources might even have negative value
<CodeShark>
they only clutter up your searche
<CodeShark>
*searches
<CodeShark>
reddit has more than its share of this problem :p
<CodeShark>
also, two good sources together might be worth more than the sum of their parts
davi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<lmatteis>
there's also the thing where there's no incentive for mining other than gaining points, which i guess enough people would still do
<lmatteis>
but there's also less incentive to gain more power to fork the chain... it's not money afterall
<lmatteis>
it's just quite different. you also don't care about how fast the tokens will arrive
<lmatteis>
and there's really no double-spending problem, since you're not sending tokens and awaiting for delivery of a physical good
<lmatteis>
but the system still needs to reach a consensus somewhat
<CodeShark>
right - there still is a double-spending problem
davi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<CodeShark>
it's not like someone gets cheated...but more like the system needs to agree where the tokens went
<CodeShark>
I think we might be trying to reinvent economics :p
<CodeShark>
it's clear that currencies don't always accurately reflect value...and it seems that markets can only price commodities to any accurate degree...all other pricing really comes down to pulling numbers out of a hat :p
<lmatteis>
i guess, i'm really bad with economics :)
<lmatteis>
i just want points to rank shit :D
<CodeShark>
isn't that how google started?
<CodeShark>
are we talking about decentralized search engines?
spinza has quit [Excess Flood]
<CodeShark>
anyhow, this is too hard to figure out in one night...gotta go rest
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<lmatteis>
:) gnight
<fluffypony>
jcorgan: that article gave me brain damage just reading it
<jcorgan>
the one by stross? yeah, was a bit disappointed by someone i otherwise respected
drwin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bedeho has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin has quit [Read error: No route to host]
p15x_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
p15x_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ishahnaz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
p15x_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bedeho has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
wallet42 has quit [Client Quit]
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
eudoxia has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Excess Flood]
p15x_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bedeho has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hearn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
arubi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
cixx` has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cixx has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
cixx` has quit [Client Quit]
drwin_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cixx has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cixx has quit [Client Quit]
cixx has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Starduster has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
eudoxia has quit [Quit: Leaving]
p15x_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
drwin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
arubi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<dgenr8>
matteis: you put a date in your paper. that's not smart because then people can figure out when you wrote it.
ishahnaz has quit []
drwin_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ishahnaz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin_ has quit [Read error: No route to host]
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hearn has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
jaekwon_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
jaekwon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drexel has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MRL-Relay has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
drexel is now known as drxl
drxl is now known as drexl
drexl has quit [Client Quit]
p15x has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
drexel has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drexel has quit [Client Quit]
davi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MRL-Relay has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MRL-Relay has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
p15x has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
p15x has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
davi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
p15x has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
null_radix has quit [Excess Flood]
null_radix has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MRL-Relay has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AaronvanW has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MRL-Relay has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
drwin_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin has quit [Read error: No route to host]
metamarc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
metamarc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
eudoxia has joined #bitcoin-wizards
binaryFate has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
GAit has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
bedeho has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
wallet42 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
tromp has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eudoxia_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
eudoxia_ has quit [Client Quit]
eudoxia has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
davi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
drwin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
davi_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davi_ is now known as Guest55083
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cluckj has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
drwin has quit [Read error: No route to host]
lmatteis has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<lmatteis>
dgenr8: and why's that a bad thing?
Guest55083 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
binaryFate has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
snthsnth has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sparetire_ has quit [Quit: sparetire_]
drwin has quit [Read error: No route to host]
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
larraboj has quit [*.net *.split]
azariah has quit [*.net *.split]
larraboj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
azariah has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guest55083 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bramc has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaekwon_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin has quit [Read error: No route to host]
ClipperClap has quit [Quit: Peace...]
sdaftuar has quit [*.net *.split]
livegnik has quit [*.net *.split]
eric has quit [*.net *.split]
Alanius_ has quit [*.net *.split]
berndj has quit [*.net *.split]
jonasschnelli has quit [*.net *.split]
jaromil has quit [*.net *.split]
roasbeef has quit [*.net *.split]
weex has quit [*.net *.split]
Eliel has quit [*.net *.split]
xabbix has quit [*.net *.split]
AdrianG has quit [*.net *.split]
Eliel has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roasbeef has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sdaftuar has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaromil has joined #bitcoin-wizards
berndj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
AdrianG has joined #bitcoin-wizards
weex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Alanius has joined #bitcoin-wizards
xabbix has joined #bitcoin-wizards
xabbix has joined #bitcoin-wizards
eric has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaekwon has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
livegnik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<dgenr8>
lmatteis: so you have confidence that your ideas matter, even if they don't pass filters for being either a) new or b) time-tested. interesting! i looked it over. my question is who will mine it?
jonasschnelli has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ishahnaz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<lmatteis>
dgenr8: well it's still a draft so i think having a date is important. once (and if) i get it published, it won't have a date on it anymore
<lmatteis>
dgenr8: whoever wants to earn points will mine it
<lmatteis>
dgenr8: but since it isn't money, the amount of money isn't as important as crypto currencies
<lmatteis>
*the amount of mining
MRL-Relay has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<dgenr8>
lmatteis: who gets the pointbase points? how many are there / will there be?
JackH has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MRL-Relay has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<dgenr8>
lmatteis: fwiw, i think not dating papers is ridiculous.
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<lmatteis>
dgenr8: that's an implementation detail. i guess you can make it similar to bitcoin (50 tokens released for each block)
<lmatteis>
the halving may not be necessary
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<lmatteis>
dgenr8: ah lol :)
<dgenr8>
everybody will want to make blocks. how is it decided? also implementation detail?
<lmatteis>
same as bitcoin with proof of work
<lmatteis>
i was studying how perhaps a proof-of-stake may be used for this, but it doesn't seem to be useful for reaching consensus
<dgenr8>
what's interesting to me, is that something similar can be used to scale bitcoin itself. store and index the tx details in something like a DHT. This idea totally distinct from saying "blindly replace the network and the blockchain with a DHT".
drwin has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Guest55083 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<dgenr8>
there is a discussion here where phantomcircuit gave me a good grilling on it (search 'beefnode')
<lmatteis>
you mean to save space?
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<justanotheruser>
dgenr8: blockchain sharding seems like it would make more sense than storing it in a DHT
c0rw1n is now known as c0rw|afk
belcher has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blackwraith has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
fkhan has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
blackwraith has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw|afk is now known as c0rw1n
Guyver2 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
benjamindees has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<benjamindees>
A Decaying Block Size Limit Growth Rate
<bramc>
gmaxwell, The 'voting' system for usenet newsgroups was profoundly ineffective and stupid
ryanxcharles has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<jcorgan>
the tribal knowledge gained during the building of a thing doesn't always transfer well to those for whom that thing has always been around. seems about 25-30 years is all that is needed.
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin_ has quit [Read error: No route to host]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gavinandresen has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
davi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
c-cex-yuriy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
"scale" is ambiguous, too many competing definitions
<kanzure>
the word should be tabooed
gavinandresen has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<jcorgan>
taboos don't scale
drwin has quit [Read error: No route to host]
drwin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davi has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
c0rw1n has quit []
c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bedeho has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ryanxcharles has joined #bitcoin-wizards
harrow has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
jaekwon_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
drwin_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
drwin has quit [Read error: No route to host]
harrow has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
drwin_ has quit []
benjamindees has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving"]
Guyver2 has quit [Quit: :)]
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
jrayhawk has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
jrayhawk has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sausage_factory has joined #bitcoin-wizards
blackwraith has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
wallet42 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fkhan has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
damethos has joined #bitcoin-wizards
damethos has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<frankenmint>
is there a good, general programming chat room?
<frankenmint>
I'm trying to build up to the like of you folk here
Crowley2k has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<jcorgan>
read other people's code, a *lot*
<gmaxwell>
frankenmint: almost nothing discussed in chat rooms helps you become a better programmer; chat room banter is mostly (thought not entirely) limited to the least interesting subjects (due to social reasons). jcorgan gave you the real answer.
<frankenmint>
android deployment is FAST you guys - apple took 8 days, this took literally 1 hour