#bitcoin-wizards on 2015-08-17 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-06-27 08:24 wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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06:56 <aj> rusty: huh, yeah, near-miss PoW is a neat way to demonstrate you're not lying about what you're working on to peers

06:56 <rusty> aj: it's what p2pool uses...

06:59 <CodeShark> lower difficulty PoW is how pooled mining shares work generally, no?

07:00 <rusty> CodeShark: yeah, but the broadcast of PoW idea is very reminiscent of p2pool (which is closer to the context of the initial conversation)

07:01 <CodeShark> it would be possible, in principle, to incorporate pooled mining directly into the protocol, no?

07:02 <rusty> CodeShark: that's basically what gmaxwell suggested, except without any coinbase requirements. For those that did have the right coinbase, p2pool would become free, I think...

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07:08 <CodeShark> I didn't read gmaxwell's suggestion - is it published somewhere or in the logs?

07:11 <CodeShark> or could you summarize it in a few sentences? :)

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10:29 <Taek> http://tauchain.org/tauchain.pdf

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10:29 <Taek> "Moreover: we give an ability

10:29 <Taek> to implement Decidable computer programs with RDF, namely DTLC languages

10:29 <Taek> rather Turing Complete ones"

10:30 <Taek> seems like a step in the right direction at least

10:30 <nsh> ugh RDF

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10:31 <nsh> nothing good will ever come out of RDF. the only person to have ever made something vaguely good out of RDF was Aaron Swartz, and he was too young to know better

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11:36 <lmatteis> nsh: not true. check out http://linkeddatafragments.org/

11:36 <lmatteis> federated querying via HTTP and RDF

11:36 <nsh> hmm

11:36 <nsh> does it require the cooperation of other people?

11:37 <nsh> here's the general all-purpose spoiler for semantic web: it won't work, probably because it requires the cooperaiton of other people

11:37 <nsh> who don't care enough to cooperate

11:38 <nsh> every month since 1994 someone has come up with a genius, workable plan to make data on the web queryable and accessible programmatically, and every month an idea has been a complete failure because people are not going to put the work in to structure things or render structure accessible or stop actively frustrating the use of alternate modalities to access their stuff

11:39 <nsh> people want to control what you see, and how you see it

11:39 <nsh> people suck

11:39 <lmatteis> nsh: well no. it's not p2p. it's client server. cool thing is that as a data provider, you can link your triples to other published datasets. then clients can query both datasets, even if they're stored on different servers, without knowing it, because there's an RDF link.

11:39 <nsh> masturbation :)

11:40 <nsh> where are amazon's triples? ebay's triples? the weather channel's triples?

11:40 <lmatteis> they're right there, on their HTML pages.

11:41 <nsh> right, screen-scraping

11:41 <lmatteis> <span title="My product" type="product"></span> -- that's an RDF triple afterall

11:41 <nsh> the woeful lame substitute for success that people have been bludgeoning at the web for 20 years

11:41 <nsh> :)

11:41 <lmatteis> sure

11:41 <lmatteis> but p2p alternatives aren't working

11:41 * nsh nods

11:42 <nsh> we just don't deserve nice things, i believe

11:42 <nsh> so i've stopped trying to imagine a way we might have them

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11:44 <lmatteis> haha ok. i guess that's a nice way of putting it

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13:44 <kanzure> nsh: does micropayments change any of that

13:44 <kanzure> or is it still equally hopeless

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13:49 <nsh> structuralisation incentives or a culture of content presentation that gives it implicitly. unsure if micropayments would help. certainly not in and of themselves

13:49 <nsh> * .. are needed

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13:51 <nsh> i have been optimistic before about a multistakeholder community curated ontology model but it seems much harder to make materialise than content itself (e.g. wikipedia, which is far from perfect without their being direct logical implications for others as a result of editor fiefdoms)

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13:52 <kanzure> why would multiple stakeholders be able to make an ontology when i struggle with just one person making an ontology? bah

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16:26 <nsh> kanzure, well, in theory the same way they consensuated on the corpus of human knowledge and a rough categorisation and association structure to it

16:27 <kanzure> did that happen?

16:29 <nsh> one person doesn't know how everything is organised as well as [some self-selecting sample of] everyone does

16:29 <nsh> (and some magical platform, process, culture and mechanism for self-organisation)

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16:39 <nsh> wikipedia was written and is of appreciable utility throughout the world. it's nothing to scoff at

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20:31 <ebfull> what's the name of the parameter which designates the number of blocks until a coinbase transaction can be spent?

20:32 <ebfull> what's the current thought about the economic and game theoretic consequences of increasing that number substantially, perhaps to target years forward?

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20:35 <Taek> years would be a mistake

20:36 <Taek> Bitcoin is already highly risky

20:36 <Taek> and most miners seem to be in it for relatively short term gains

20:38 <Taek> 3 months would be an interesting experiment, but I don't think that any currency implementing such delay would have an easy time bootstrapping

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20:38 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] ebfull: coinbasematurity and it's 100; that's more #bitcoin-dev though

20:38 <Taek> I think that the game theory stuff is on topic

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20:39 <MRL-Relay> [tacotime] ok

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21:22 <instagibbs> anything too long and my guess is people would minimize exposure by selling immature coinbase rewards

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21:41 <kanzure> "Incentives to run full nodes" http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-August/010343.html

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21:46 <lmatteis> plot twist: petertodd is satoshi

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21:49 <kanzure> that's not helpful

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23:20 <stevedekorte> a friend of mine just set this service up as a weekend project: http://www.backbxt.com

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23:21 <fluffypony> stevedekorte: you're in the room room for spam.

23:21 <fluffypony> try #bitcoin

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