wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<smooth>
one issue in monero is there is no explicit incentive for miners to produce a below-median size block, so the block size may not shrink
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<smooth>
one argument is that orphan rate provides a small incentive, as does breakage (it is hard to produce exactly median, and if you go over you are penalized). i dont know if those are enough
<gmaxwell>
smooth: I don't think orphan rate is an argumet except right around the point of indifference. It isn't fundimentally hard to change how you forward blocks and select transactions such that orphaning has nothing to do with the blocksize (this is true for both monero and bitcoin)
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<gmaxwell>
(e.g. a toy example, miner software could run a merged mined seperate consensus system that does nothing but decide on an ordering of transactions. Not-enforced. Miners could then include transactions from that chain, once they are good and burred, by reference with essentially constant size and bypass all transmission and verification delays (as its already been done) for anything that is taken
<gmaxwell>
verbarim from that system .... consensus is actually way overkill for this but it's an easily understood example of what there can be no size proportionality for orphaning if someone bothers to write the software)
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<smooth>
gmaxwell: is there a way to do this that doesn't impose an inherent cost in timeliness
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<amiller>
wow this brand new paper seems to be about generalizing "chameleon Sigma protocols" in order to have more efficient Or http://eprint.iacr.org/2015/810.pdf
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<andytoshi>
amiller: note that this does not give us sublinear sized ring signatures (in fact i'm pretty sure for the specific case of an OR of schnorr proofs the resulting signature is less efficient than what we have)
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<andytoshi>
this business of committing to the first round of the other protocol is interesting, because for an OR of n protocols you can commit to all the others simultaneously, which i initially thought would give some asymptotic improvement
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<andytoshi>
but in the second round, it looks like you have to get the output from the second round (or simulator) of all the protocols, so you still wind up linear-sized
<andytoshi>
(i could be totally misreading btw, i skipped over the discription of their abstraction and am trying to read through their protocol regardless)
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<kanzure>
there should be a type of network where learning information about the structure of the network causes the participants to know that you have that information, and trigger automatic restructuring.
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<bsm117532>
Does anyone know of any good work on sharding the blockchain? e.g. parties collaboratively validating the blockchain, with no entity posessing the entire thing?
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<instagibbs>
bsm117532: define "good" :) . Right now the only thing that makes quasi sense is treechains/embedded consensus, aka "do your own damned validation".
<instagibbs>
sans snarks not that useful tho
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<bsm117532>
Treechains seem to not be fully fleshed out. I read Peter's post and his github repo, and I still don't see how it's supposed to work.
<bsm117532>
snarks/ZKP's seem to be a required element...
<phantomcircuit>
bsm117532, the z-SNARKS stuff isn't really sharding
<bsm117532>
of course not
<phantomcircuit>
all of the work for sharding bitcoin that is actually plausible involves downloading but not storing the entire chain
<bsm117532>
"prove to me that you have the portion of the blockchain that I do not" could be a use of Z-Snarks.
<phantomcircuit>
ie how do you tell your peers in an efficient manner which blocks you have
<bsm117532>
Yeah. Been racking my brains on this one for a couple days...
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<bsm117532>
It's not only about telling your peers, it really requires cryptographic proof, if you don't want to re-transmit the blockchain to do it.
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<bsm117532>
Otherwise malfeasant nodes could lie and potentially validate invalid transactions.
<maaku>
bsm117532: the term for what you are looking for is 'probabalistic validation'
<maaku>
it can be done today, but the problem is there are many error cases in which you cannot compactly prove the invalidatity of a block -- so the other person still has to download and validate the whole block or block chain to check
<bsm117532>
Yeah that's kind of a deal-breaker.
<maaku>
so to be deployed, there's a number of committments that need to be added to bitcoin
<maaku>
and those come with various efficiency tradeoffs ... still an area of active study
<bsm117532>
Cool, thanks for the lead
<maaku>
i believe there is someone working on a talk over this subject for the scalingbitcoin.org workshop
<bsm117532>
Well shit, I want to go to that!
<bsm117532>
I have to get out of this dead-end job and start working full time on bitcoin. *sigh*
<maaku>
please do; also #bitcoin-workshop
<bsm117532>
Alas, I have commitments already that weekend. :-(
<maaku>
sorry, #bitcoin-workshops <-- plural
<Luke-Jr>
another channel⁈
<Taek>
bsm1175332: what are your goals in sharding the blockchain? I think there is a way to 'mutally mine' separate chains, where each chain is a separate ledger, but reorging any of them requires reorging all of them
<Taek>
that's nice for security, but doesn't help you scale a single ledger where people are doing partial validation
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<bsm117532>
My goal is to address the scaling properties of bitcoin.
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