wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
snakesandbarrels has joined #bitcoin-wizards
fabianfabian has quit [Quit: what]
metamarc has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
cypher__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
snakesandbarrels has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
hearn_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hearn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hearn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Quanttek has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
melvster has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
melvster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
if you have multiple proof-of-work algorithm variations, how would you judge the relative merit between their outputs? i can only think of arbitrary answers.
<gmaxwell>
For what application?
<kanzure>
eh, just your typical "reset pow to fiddle with decentralization" (loosely- nothing specific)
<gmaxwell>
I know nothing but $arbritary for that. (For hashcash you can just blinding increment the cost when the rate is high in order to rate limit requests; esp if you can distinguish bad requests after the fact.)
<kanzure>
i have heard the idea to "flip the switch" and go to a different pow algorithm before, but it seems more natural to have a geometric drop-off of one pow algorithm while switching to another, or keeping sha256 pow and then adding another one instead of just a hard switch
<kanzure>
and by "adding" i mean "blocks can be verified using this second verification method" i guess
<gmaxwell>
kanzure: if you're thinking about concurrent-- you're aware that the whole argument for "Multiple algorithims to improve decentralization" is probably totally busted, right? Needing more circut area increases R&D costs and one time mfg costs, but not operating; and thus probably is a centeralizing force (fewer parties can make hardware).
<gmaxwell>
Oh a transistion, well for that you can have a programmed ratio that changes over time.
<kanzure>
is a ratio equally busted, or less busted?
<gmaxwell>
I think as a transition mechenism that could work. The argument I was giving above basically only holds for the system that has multiple ones in the steady state.
<kanzure>
right, also i want to clarify i definitely don't mean "sha256 AND scrypt == 1 hash"
<nsh>
hmm
hearn_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
<kanzure>
also i'm curious how controversial alternative-pow proposals have been in the past.
<kanzure>
obv. it pisses off miners but... ratios seem less likely to, since they already factor hardware depreciation into their plans anyway?
<kanzure>
*transitory ratios
<alpalp>
Changing the algorithm has pretty big incentives on any investment on the new algorithm since what's to stop you from changing it again?
hearn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<kanzure>
well, probably nothing
<kanzure>
but allocating 1% of blocks to sha256-next mig-- actually you don't need to allocate BTC supply to it, you could allocate some chunk of the transaction fees.
<gmaxwell>
I tried to get litecoin to change their POW to make a best effort attempt to make good on their social contract of <s>GPU</s> <s>FPGA</s> ASIC proofness but they did not decide to do so.
<nsh>
who's you? the miner signs away some of their transaction fees, or some fraction of blocks get mined under a secondary hash by difficulty equivocation?
<kanzure>
well i think this would just be a systemic detail, not something miners would be able to control, although a voluntary mechanism would also be curious
<nsh>
voluntary mechanism seems nontrivial
<nsh>
winning a lottery is easy to do for yourself, hard to do for someone else
<nsh>
well, actually i guess miners could include the lowest hash presented by a connected node
<nsh>
so you can voluntarily objectively reward other participants
<nsh>
but it's still voluntary, which is an issue
<nsh>
a problem with allowing more than one type of hash to mine a block is that each block measures the global hashrate only for a single hash type, so you have a harder block period convergence problem
hearn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
bendavenport has quit [Quit: bendavenport]
hearn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaekwon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
sparetire_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
StephenM347 has quit []
jaekwon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
hearn has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<kanzure>
re: relative merit, that was some thought along the lines of "BTC has to be allocated between them in some split"
btcdrak has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
dEBRUYNE has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hearn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hearn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hearn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hearn_ has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hashtagg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
jnpn has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
AaronvanW has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
ryanxcharles has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
RedEmerald_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
RedEmerald has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Oizopower has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
hearn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dEBRUYNE has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
cluckj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp___ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tromp has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hashtagg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
jnpn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c-cex-yuriy has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
ryanxcharles has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
msdkxla has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
msdkxla has quit [Client Quit]
blackwraith has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
mrkent has quit []
hashtagg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Giszmo has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
jaekwon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jaekwon has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
hashtagg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
hearn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hearn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtag_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
hashtag_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg_ has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
hearn has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
hearn_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hashtagg_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]