wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<stevedekorte>
thanks “fluffypony”
<fluffypony>
stevedekorte: no need for inverted commas, this is IRC and having a nom de plume is neither unusual nor inverted-comma-worthy
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<kanzure>
petertodd: including a second merkle tree might cause users to just start using third-party api services when they leave spv.
<kanzure>
or is there a way around that?
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<gmaxwell>
kanzure: what do you mean by leave SPV?
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<gmaxwell>
I think we need to have a little bit of terminology come to jesus. What BitcoinJ implements is an incomplete version of SPV; and somehow that incomplete version has replaced SPV in our parlance (presumably because the complete version doesn't exist, and BitcoinJ does)
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<gmaxwell>
(Electrum's SPV is even more incomplete... but same deal.)
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<gmaxwell>
Go load up and read the bitcoin whitepaper, section 8. Don't just skim or stop reading at the graph.
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<afk11>
Electrum doesn't even use bloom filters.. can it be called SPV?
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<gmaxwell>
afk11: 0_o. Bloomfilters are "offchain" tech, they're not part of the bitcoin consensus system; and were only added in Bitcoin Core 0.8. Not all nodes even implement them. Thats like saying they don't implement getmempool can they be SPV? :)
<gmaxwell>
If you just mean that they're not very private; in practice they may be more private than normal bitcoinj users because the existing bloomfilter usage is almost completely deanonymizing; and the clients are very promiscious in sharing their filters. Where electrum sends an address list but does it to fewer servers.
<kanzure>
the "security drills" plan was to encourage the use of fully-validating nodes, but using a third-party api seems like a trivial workaround
<gmaxwell>
kanzure: that at least makes their insecurity model transparent to them, they know they're depending on the API. I'm not sure that it matters: they're already largely using the APIs.
<kanzure>
hm alright, out-of-scope for that particular plan then, fair enough
<gmaxwell>
If you go monitor your inbound connections on v4 reachable nodes you'll find that there are very few BitcoinJ nodes connecting-- much less than there used to be. I don't know how much electrum traffic there is. Charitably I hope more things are just using electrum, but from talking to people I suspect a lot of it is APIs.
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<afk11>
gmaxwell: ah, I see what you mean. SPV proves the tx is included in the merkle branch. how you arrive at that doesn't matter.
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<gmaxwell>
Yea.
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<gmaxwell>
Actually there is a proposal for a comitted bloom filter that would remove most of the privacy and dos attack issues for bloom filters, but they would need a fair bit more bandwidth, alas.
<gmaxwell>
Also one of those things where there is a huge amount of design space available.
<gmaxwell>
The idea is that instead of the client sending a bloom "filter" to the server, each block has a commited bloom "map" that would allow clients to fetch only th blocks (or parts of blocks) that they're interested in.
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<gmaxwell>
The resulting maps are smaller than the filters if the client has more addresses than are typicall in a block. (the fact that there is a map once per block vs a filter sent potentially only once hardly matters because the existing filter design gets contanimated quickly and must be reset or it matches everything)
<afk11>
Hmm, interesting idea. I've wondered if blocktrail,etc could accept filters. there are privacy issues that make filters impractical. (only one result in a long time, or you're requesting everything). but why not?
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<bramc>
Hey everybody
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<bramc>
In response to linking to Satoshi's message, a bunch of people expressed, ahem, skepticism that was actually him, as if it was implausible that bitcoin's original author would say that a lack of full nodes is a real problem.
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<bramc>
The whole thing has me feeling very sour on the bitcoin ecosystem. I find bitcoin fascinating as a crypto project and love working on it, but the broader ecosystem makes me hate humanity
<bramc>
Dumb question: Is bitcoin-XT merge-mineable with bitcoin? My understanding is no.
<ebfull>
i don't think so. at least one side needs to explicitly permit merge-mining to take place. neither XT nor Core permits that, nor could they really
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<ebfull>
everyone here that works really hard on Bitcoin and cryptocurrency does so in the face of seemingly insurmountable problems. there's no shortage of motivation, as far as i can tell
<zooko>
Hiya bramc and ebfull.
<ebfull>
hi zooko
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<rusty>
bramc: it can be nasty, yes. But the bitcoin ecosystem has always had a problem with taking bad news; I think back to MtGox and how the larger community willfully ignored the warning signs.
<gmaxwell>
bramc: I don't see why people are expressing surprise at the message.
<gmaxwell>
It is almost completely consistent with my expectation. In the not that unlikely case that its fake whomever wrote it went to considerable lengths to match style.
<gmaxwell>
bramc: no, though either bitcoin or bitcoin-xt could be changed to make it merge minable.
<ebfull>
not just that, but the opportunity of sending the email from the server. and the choice of when and what to send. wouldn't be surprised if it was satoshi
<gmaxwell>
My position is somewhat biased by an unusual condition, the message changed my thinking on a few things for reasons I don't expect others to understand.
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<zooko>
gmaxwell: want to give us a chance to fail at that? :-)
<zooko>
I'm curious.
<gmaxwell>
(basically the point that hard forks are _normally_ hardforks even for spv clients; but the specific structure of this combined with the current security inadequacy of existing SPV clients means that they don't need to be upgraded; and that this is bad for system governance, because it greatly amplifies the overly consolidated miners ability to change policy unilaterally)
<zooko>
Hm.
<midnightmagic>
bramc: The comments in general and in specific about "declaring" it a failure does not, to me, match his old tone.
<TD-Linux>
I thought we had software for this!
<gmaxwell>
I have no clue if even the author was thinking the same thing as me there, but when he wrote "Nearly everyone has to agree on a change, and they have to do it without being forced or pressured into it." this clicked for me.
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<midnightmagic>
TD-Linux: we do, and the authors admit that while it is the best-known-to-the-public stylometric tool that exists, it can be trivially fooled by simply asking the participants fool it.
<midnightmagic>
TD-Linux: (but i like your joke)
<gmaxwell>
midnightmagic: When matching style you can't match the parts that were new. Assume for a moment that the message is legit, the author had never in the past believed that the system was in an impending risk of failure. Why would you have previously expected intense language like that? bleh. I hate even discussing this because I don't think it's possible to give the topic just coverage without sou
<gmaxwell>
ndling like I'm strongly arguing that its real.
<gmaxwell>
And I would say my position is probably weak it's real, strong it doesn't matter if its real or not.
<gmaxwell>
I do think it's kind of halarious to see pepole argue that its fake for trivially falsifyable reasons, but then not update to increase their confidence that it's real when they're corrected.
<gmaxwell>
E.g. people on reddit cited the following halarious example as reasons why it wasn't real: Used a commonwealth spelling, that it used two spaces after a period, that it said it wasn't aware of pooled mining, that it wasn't signed with that pgp key, and that it used that particular domain instead of GMX.
<gmaxwell>
halariously, these are all _well know_ characteristics someone might look for in the real thing, exactly the opposite of what quite a few people were arguing.
<gmaxwell>
Commedy this could couldn't be created in fiction, no one would believe it. :)
<TD-Linux>
unfortunately I think reddit has turned from "hilarious" to "sad" recently
<[\\\]>
+1
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<bramc>
gmaxwell, Yes it passes the literary forensics test of 'is very insightful about bitcoin'. I noticed his comment about how the lack of incentive for full nodes, which wasn't a problem in the past. That particular form of literary forensics isn't readily accessible to most people.
<bramc>
gmaxwell, The moon landing footage is obviously fake! Look how bizarre the gravel looks flying off the wheels of the car!
<bramc>
That is an interesting point about SPV, in that it doesn't force the system as a whole to be using the correct protocol, which running full nodes does.
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<bramc>
ebfull, There is a fair amount of good development resources put into Bitcoin, but there are many people put off by the ugliness of the core and the scaminess of the whole thing generally.
<moa>
bramc: he said nodes not "full nodes"
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<bramc>
moa, I think he meant full nodes. He also might not be using the latest vernacular.
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<bramc>
If bitcoin's market cap were in the millions instead of billions, there would be a lot less bad juju working on it. A lot less pay too, unfortunately.
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<kanzure>
adam3us: there should be some method of estimating when you should run a second node (from a usage/security standpoint). presumably there's a maximum threshold of trust that you should be applying to each instance... or something?
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<Eliel>
gmaxwell: I don't think most people form opinions through conscious logic. Rather the opinions form through some subconscious process and then the person tries to figure out some kind of an argument to back it hoping to make it more convincing.
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<Eliel>
In other words, the don't update their beliefs because the argument they used had nothing to do with the belief in the first place.
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<bramc>
The business of setting up blockchains for corporations is a very strange one. If you have a bank it makes a whole lot more sense to have them act as a slightly trusted authority, and dump mining completely while still having smart transactions
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<bramc>
Maybe have them do public commitments to the bitcoin blockchain just to avoid funny business.
<jgarzik>
bramc, That's pretty much what's happening
<jgarzik>
bramc, You can dump PoW and a lot of the consensus bits if you have a trusted authority. blockchain becomes a checksummed database audit log + smart transactions.
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<jgarzik>
bramc, "anchoring" such chains in the main bitcoin blockchain by publishing a hash is also done
<jgarzik>
Also snapshotting whole-UTXO hashes into the blockchain
<jgarzik>
enabling pruning
<bramc>
jgarzik, Oh good, that's pleasant to hear
<bramc>
A bunch of the public materials from companies saying they do private blockchains are alarming.
<jgarzik>
Another thing that's vaguely related: "hashserv", a variant of which Storj Project uses
<jgarzik>
hashserv periodically timestamps a merkle root into the bitcoin blockchain
<jgarzik>
downstream clients communicate with hashserv, submit hashes and receive "receipts" (merkle branches)
<jgarzik>
thus clients can produce that receipt and prove their document is hashed into the bitcoin blockchain
<jgarzik>
without having to publish each and every hash
<jgarzik>
timestamp millions of hashes with one bitcoin tx
* jgarzik
intends to write a C/C++ version of a hashserv server
<jgarzik>
Then you can easily anchor many private blockchains with a single bitcoin tx
<bramc>
Is there a compact proof that you haven't made two parallel commitments?
<jgarzik>
bramc, usually that's solved with some sort of timelocked commitment (CLTV)
<jgarzik>
bramc, depends on the problem domain (cross-chain? etc.)
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<jgarzik>
It will be fun when CLTV is widely deployed. You can use a proof-of-timelocked-payment-to-yourself as a rate limiter / anti-spam / digital friction uses in all sorts of external services
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<Taek>
jgarzik: how does CLTV help prove that there aren't parallel commitments in the blockchain?
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<jgarzik>
Taek, You can't spend the same bitcoin twice
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<jgarzik>
Taek, A service can provide a nonce value to embed, as one example, to ensure it is your payment
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<Taek>
ok, that makes sense. So you'd follow a particular 'bitcoin' around to track updates to a database.
<Adlai>
jgarzik: you forgot to list "broadcast channel" :)
<jgarzik>
Taek, You can, though my example was largely thinking of using bitcoin as a way of granting rights to do $something $somewhere_else
<Adlai>
admittedly, low throughput
<jgarzik>
not necessarily track specific updates, which can be done off-chain
<jgarzik>
at higher throughput :)
<jgarzik>
commit 1 BTC to the chain for 24 hours with nonce 0x1234, and a chain grants you permission to post up to 1MB of data to it within that window
<jgarzik>
commit 1 BTC to the main chain for 24 hours with nonce 0x1234, and a side chain grants you permission to post up to 1MB of data to it within that window
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<Iriez>
gmaxwell: I just wanted to say thank you for your recent update regarding privacy issues on the tracker. It seems to be me that we've gone several years now without any focus on privacy. The time is ripe for exploration on this, and users around the world would benefit greatly.
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<zooko>
lriez, gmaxwell: +1!
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<bramc>
Adlai, The amount of throughput 'doesn't matter' in that you can always commit a merkle root, which can represent an arbitrarily large amount of data
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<zooko>
Because this is about a value that people care about -- privacy -- instead of a technology which they might not understand -- CT.
<ebfull>
like the block size limit debate, it means that technical discussions are being rapidly politicized
<ebfull>
which may be a bad thing, if you think about it.
<ebfull>
that is, the motives for upvoting this aren't to encourage constructive discussion but to feed the debate and create figureheads and teams out of ideas and directions for the project
<zooko>
Hm. Good point.
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<leakypat>
I'm am befuddled by reddit
<kanzure>
at some point bitcoin is going to be the first introduction that some users have to critical thinking, just something to keep in mind
<kanzure>
especially as more users happen
<kanzure>
(and some users will be uninterested in critical thinking; and it would be nice to figure out a way to make this okay and non-destructive)
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<gmaxwell>
kanzure: well thats kind of why we created #bitcoin-pricetalk there was a large flood of people into #bitcoin that just wanted to say "buy buy buy sell sell sell moon moon crashing moon" so we gave them their own cesspool. Interestingly it mostly self organized into something tolerable.
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<waxwing>
gmaxwell: (1) people don't understand CT (already mentioned) but more importantly (2) it's mixed in with sidechains, which people not only don't understand, but many are suspicious of
<waxwing>
the psychology of (2) is something that i remain confused, but fascinated by
<kanzure>
"trying to be careful about things only means that they are being really *really* harmful! if they really were doing good work, then they would be okay with destroying everything."
<kanzure>
also, dumping people into a cesspool is not a good education technique for critical thinking skills. i know it's off-topic, but really- bitcoin is going to be the first introduction to many people for software, programming, open-source, critical thinking, consensus protocols, denial of service attacks, cryptography...
<Eliel>
Well, it's like the internet and the influx of the masses into it. There weren't enough old users to teach the newcomers the ropes.
<Eliel>
... and we're not at that point with Bitcoin yet I think...
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<fluffypony>
Eliel: Eternal September
<fluffypony>
pretty sure we're at that stage with BTC, even a bit past it
<kanzure>
i don't think that's helpful
<CodeShark>
I still don't understand how gmaxwell finds time to even bother with reddit
<fluffypony>
kanzure: what, identifying the Eternal September stage?
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<kanzure>
fluffypony: yes, calling it "eternal september" is not helpful. if you could come up with some proof that it's equally hopeless, that might be helpful, but...
<fluffypony>
oh I didn't find that period hopeless
<fluffypony>
annoying, sure, but change is inevitable
<fluffypony>
coping effectively with that change is critical
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