wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<drue>
so this is probably stupid, and this may not be the right channel. if either are the case let me know..
<drue>
so regarding block size and cost of running a full node over time - i don't understand why work couldn't be done to allow nodes to have a truncated history
<fluffypony>
drue: pruning is already in there
<fluffypony>
the major cost impact isn't disk space
<drue>
i get that you'd lose transaction history, but couldn't it be summarized in the earliest block or in some manner?
<fluffypony>
it's upstream bandwidth
<fluffypony>
disk space is cheap in every country, but upstream bandwidth is hellishly expensive, even in countries like Germany
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<drue>
ah. isn't that just a function of transaction count, rather than block size? (that is, isn't block size just a function of transaction count too?)
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<fluffypony>
a single transaction can take up tons of space, so definitely not transaction "count"
<fluffypony>
and unless the argument is being made that Bitcoin is hardly used and will have lots of empty blocks inbetween the occasional transaction it's not worth considering
<jgarzik>
byte count
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* fluffypony
counts his bytes
<fluffypony>
on that topic, though - Ookla has just canned NetIndex in favour of some lame new site that shows you the "best" ISP in a particular country / area
<drue>
ok.. thanks. just getting up to speed on the discussion and reading the dev list for the last couple weeks.
<fluffypony>
which obviously only has USA right now (sigh)
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<amiller>
would it be useful to generalize the borromean signatures thing to OR-AND-OR-AND... etc. rather than just AND-OR
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<nsh>
how is the former different from the latter, amiller?
<amiller>
well they cover the same "language" (any monotone boolean function) but could have pretty different efficiency
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<nsh>
iirc the current alpha implementation of borromean sigs allows for arbitrary monotone functions by joining rings of AND over vertices of OR. are you suggesting a different topology?
<AlphaTech>
Hello
<AlphaTech>
You wanted me, nah?
<AlphaTech>
*nsh
<amiller>
yeah, i think it generalizes to AND then OR then AND then OR in whatever order
<amiller>
actually they don't even have to alternate layers
<nsh>
hmm
<amiller>
maybe it's obvious they might as well go in layers
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<amiller>
there's a very nice general structure for borromean signatures
<amiller>
er for
<amiller>
generic zero knowledge profos
<amiller>
that includes 'and' composition without increasing the challenge bits because of reusing the challenge, any homorphism involving known order groups, and 'Or' composition too
<amiller>
the clever thing that borromean uses is basicall 'Or' composition of homomorphism proofs without increasing challenge size
<amiller>
but i think it's a good idea that generalizes to Or composition of any proof of this structure, including proofs made from nested Ands and other Ords
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<nsh>
any refs for this general \k strcuture?
<nsh>
*zk
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<gmaxwell>
amiller: the obvious way I tried to generalized it to AND OR AND was not actually signable. I only needed an AND of ORs, and this is technically general already though as you note it's not terribly efficient to represent some circuts that way.
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<gmaxwell>
If you actually are aware of a working generalization, I'd be interested to hear it-- I didn't spend more than a few minutes trying, so I wouldn't be shocked... but do actually confirm that it's actually signable, lest you fall into the trap I fell in. :)
<gmaxwell>
At the bottom of the writeup we mentioned that that generalization would be useful.
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