sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<qpm>
tx:<Jeremy_Rand> I realize that there's probably not much practical purpose for such a thing, but would it be possible to build a MimbleWimble chain that supports Namecoin-like operations as well as the standard MW currency ops?
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<qpm>
tx:<Jeremy_Rand> The 2 obvious challenges that jump out at me are (1) making a MW tx commit to the naming data, and (2) enforcing uniqueness and immutability of the "name" field of the name operations
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<qpm>
tx:<Jeremy_Rand> My initial guess is that it's not possible, but then again I never would have guessed that MW was possible to begin with
<qpm>
tx:<Jeremy_Rand> So I dislike writing off something as impossible just because I can't imagine of a way it could be done
<qpm>
tx:<Jeremy_Rand> Expiration of names might also be a challenge, I guess
<gmaxwell>
kanzure: some of that suffers from excessive handwave and dreaming without engineering expirence in the relevant area (something I'm often guilty of), very low bitrates at very low power suffer from decohearence. You can't accomulate 1000 seconds of CDMA data to decode your bit because the paths are not stable over those kinds of timeframes; in fact, unless all the communicating parties have pret
<gmaxwell>
ty good atomic clocks, their _oscillators_ aren't stable enough over that kind of timeframe to usefully decode the signal.
<qpm>
tx:<Jeremy_Rand> (of course, yes, I realize that it probably makes more sense to have Namecoin be a sidechain and MW be another sidechain, or something like that)
<gmaxwell>
kanzure: fwiw, people doing low power communications is a standard ham challenge, search string: QRP. And what you find is that the lower the power the more insane the hardware and DSP becomes, not simple 'steampunk' things like the writeup suggests. :)
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<gmaxwell>
(for a comparison point, the highest cohearent integration time I've seen reported for GPS -- kind of a perfect case example, since the sats are straight up and the troposphere is slowly changing-- is two seconds, and except for one academic paper using an exotic ultrastable oscillator (a $10k part with a one year lead time) got 30 seconds, but I dunno if that was even reproducable. Typical integ
<gmaxwell>
ration times for high end GPS hardware are more like 20-40ms)
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<so>
18:19 < sipa> ultraprune is just the name of the database/storage design in bitcoin core since 0.8
<so>
18:20 < sipa> it's not a commitment scheme
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<nsh>
tl;dr on TumbleBit?
<nsh>
freenet for transactions i guess
<nsh>
--
<nsh>
Description: TumbleBit is a new anonymous payments protocol that is fully compatible with today’s Bitcoin protocol. TumbleBit allows parties to make payments through an untrusted Tumbler. No-one, not even the Tumbler, can tell which payer paid which payee during a TumbleBit epoch. TumbleBit consists of two interleaved fair-exchange protocols that prevent theft of bitcoins by cheating users or a ma
<nsh>
licious Tumbler. TumbleBit combines fast cryptographic computations (performed off the blockchain) with standard bitcoin scripting functionalities (on the blockchain) that realize smart contracts. TumbleBit was used to mix 800 input addresses to 800 output addresses on Bitcoin's blockchain.
<gmaxwell>
nsh: it's like a coinswap, but with the swapping parties not being able to connect their transactions.
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* nsh
nods
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* nsh
wonders about attacks on RIPEMD-160
<nsh>
good enough for GPG i guess
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<gmaxwell>
http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1121#comment-52677 random OT thing, that I think sometimes explains some communications challenges explaining Bitcoin tech to people without as strong of a sciences background.
<midnightmagic>
I really like that guy's blog.
<nsh>
scott is awesome :)
* nsh
disagrees with all of the examples where this person purports to have learned something :)
<midnightmagic>
lol
<nsh>
you can make similarly 'lightning' compelling arguments in less precise contexts as long as there's a decision procedure. law has endless examples that get distilled into named points of discursive reference
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<nsh>
but computation makes proof pretty optimally compelling. an functioning exploit is the scientific process perfected
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<gmaxwell>
yes, he's wrong about the decisive turns happening in other fields-- they do (law would be a good example)-- but they're not so common in everyday social discourse.
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* nsh
nods
<waxwing>
nsh: i really liked the paper, they really went to the trouble of explaining it in detail. also there is code and it has been used in a test run. i'd be interested in hearing expert opinion about the puzzle-promise and puzzle-solver fair exchange stuff. it makes sense to my eyes, but there's a lot going on there.
<nsh>
aye, it reads well to my wandbearer's eyes
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<waxwing>
oh just scanned up you already mentioned potential gotchas.
<FNinTak>
kanzure: for multi-Ghz part of spectrum, small fractal/ folded antennas are enough for short ranges
<FNinTak>
Should be doable as relatively non-invasive implants or possibly self-unfolding injectables
<FNinTak>
though effective distance would be limited by directionality + broadcast power if the transceiver is also embedded vs. external
<yoleaux>
Structuring Networks with XOR | MaidSafe
<nsh>
this kinda reminds me of some interesting observations that Knuth in a talk or two
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<gmaxwell>
not having clicked the link, I wonder if they've heard about wagners' algorithim, and will they have a very bad day when an attacker teaches them about it?
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<nsh>
there's two that might be relevant. Wagner-Fischer algo for edit distance and Stoer-Wagner on minimal cuts of undirected graphs
<nsh>
so this XOR-network thing is basically Kademlia DHTs i think
<nsh>
i think you and cjd were thinking around the problem at some point
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<gmaxwell>
CJD's work is the only DHT work that I've seen which has any real attack resistance.
* nsh
nods
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<gmaxwell>
well okay, no, not the only, freenet's "darknet" connections are also attack resistant under similar assumptions to cjd's work.
<nsh>
hmm
<gmaxwell>
but like, no one uses darknet freenet connections.
<nsh>
aye
<gmaxwell>
in any of these systems you just generally grind your locations to surround the hash space you're targeting with your sybils.
<gmaxwell>
freenet darknet and cjddns inhibit your ability to do that by constraing to you operating with friendly adjcencies.
<gmaxwell>
so you can only really sybil attack people dumb enough to connect to all your identities.
<gmaxwell>
(at least, assuming they work as expected)
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<gmaxwell>
I think tor has long since solved that problem in their latest designs. In the latest and not yet deployed designs, Hs' physical addresses change periodically, only known to people who know the URLs, and there is some random coin toss by directory authorities once a day to randomize the mapping.
<gmaxwell>
So even if you know a tor HS address in HSNG, you can't predict more than a day ahead where its location will be without compromising the directory authorities.
<nsh>
hmm
<nsh>
that's pretty neat
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<nsh>
.wik Binary decision diagram
<yoleaux>
"In computer science, a binary decision diagram (BDD) or branching program is a data structure that is used to represent a Boolean function. On a more abstract level, BDDs can be considered as a compressed representation of sets or relations." — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_decision_diagram
<nsh>
(Knuth explains how to apply elementary BDD technology so that the probability of such events (and many others) can be computed in polynomial time. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axUgEAgrSB8 )
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<so>
tonika was also an early approach that considered the history of graph formation in the sybil defense, but newcomers with few or no friends in the network don't have much to go on
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<nsh>
the world sleep easy again tonight :)
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<nsh>
(i would love to think you wouldn't publish a mathematical paper making strong cryptographic claims unless you got it to work with more than the one example you started with)
<so>
peers accepted
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