sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<maaku> I nominate Bob.
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<kanzure> "Simulation-based evaluation of coin selection strategies" http://murch.one/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/CoinSelection.pdf
<murch> kanzure: Yes? :)
<sipa> murch: kanzure is just quoting a link :)
<kanzure> don't mind me.
<murch> Oh, you also use this channel for archival of research?
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<sipa> and spreading of knowledge
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<waxwing> that's pretty interesting, thanks kanzure murch
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<xinxi> instagibbs: here we are.
<bsm117532> I'm confused by your question...why use a quantum-resistant key exchange algorithm to exchange keys for an algorithm that is itself not quantum resistant (e.g. relies on security of ECDLP)?
<instagibbs> xinxi: CT is also broken under quantum attack
<instagibbs> so, it's not really an added plus, even if we ignore "it's not in libsecp" :P
<xinxi> Is it? commitment = xG + aH is not broken though.
<sipa> xinxi: privacy-wise, no
<sipa> but security wise it certainly is
<xinxi> If the privacy is kept, isn't it enough?
<bsm117532> it relies on the elliptic curve discrete logarithm being hard though.
<sipa> no, you can arbitrarily print money
<sipa> for a given commitment C you can't find the original amount and blinding factor
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<sipa> but you easily find another amount and blinding favtor with the same commitment
<instagibbs> information theoretically private, but not secure in the inflation sense
<instagibbs> right?
<xinxi> Got it.
<sipa> yup CT is information theoretically private, but only computationally secure
<xinxi> Why not use a quantum resistant homomorphic method?
<sipa> CT is already painfully large as it is.
<sipa> quantum reistant methods usually have huge keys and signatures
<xinxi> OK. Did you check CCT?
<xinxi> That's much smaller than CT.
<bsm117532> I had to look that up. You mean this? http://voxelsoft.com/dev/cct.html
<xinxi> Yes
<instagibbs> "Unfortunately, Andrew Poelstra was able to break the cryptosystem for this scheme's range-proofs." from Feb 2nd this year
<xinxi> Aha, missed that.
<xinxi> What're the ECDH public/private key sizes now used by Elements?
<sipa> secp256k1 all the way
<xinxi> Thanks. That's indeed much smaller than post-quantum algorithms' keys.
<sipa> CT range proofs are already 2.5 kB
<sipa> we have an optimization to reduce it to around 1.8
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<xinxi> Yeah, that's pretty big. Research on the range proof is quite active though. Efficient Protocols for Set Membership and Range Proofs got 152 citations.
<xinxi> There is still no break through?
<waxwing> sipa: has anyone given much thought to smaller ranges? 32 bit amount range is quite huge. (if i remembered that right)
<sipa> waxwing: well, logarithmic gain :)
<sipa> one problem is that there is a propagation of informationn
<waxwing> yes, well. point(s) taken.
<sipa> if all inputs that indirectly consistitute an output ever used a small range, you know a lot
<waxwing> i think the log scaling is the important point there, the other point is valid but you can argue both sides of it (some privacy is better than none).
<yoleaux> bsm117532: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page.
<bsm117532> Efficient Protocols for Set Membership and Range Proofs
<bsm117532> uses Boneh's signatures...
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<sipa> bsm117532: afaik, those are not more compact than CT
<sipa> the range proof used in CT would be around 15000 bits for that range they demonstrate
<bsm117532> I see, you're already using the Borromean ring signatures...
<sipa> bsm117532: yes, borromean ring signature were invented for CT
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