sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<andytoshi>
vega4: BTW, i don't intend mimblewimble to be an altcoin, it makes much more sense as a sidechain, it's strictly less featureful and gets better scaling and privacy in exchange
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<andytoshi>
(otoh being a sidechain currently appears to require a federation, and it might be tough to find a large mutually-distrusting set of people who can be trusted to keep operating a privacy-focused peg for a long time :/)
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<andytoshi>
but thanks for your feedback, i'll try to restructure some sentences. i know there are a few things where i say stuff then end with "as in Bitcoin" or "unlike Bitcoin" so you've gotta read to the end of the sentence to figure out what i'm talking about
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<cjcj>
andytoshi: Can't a MW sidechain be implemented with a soft fork as an extension chain?
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<Taek>
cjcj: it's not something you'd really want to softfork into the main chain because it eliminates features, some of which are currently depended on by the industry.
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<Taek>
If there was an attacker whose goal was to split the chain, how much hashrate + network superiority would they need to pull it off?
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<Taek>
The attacker would perform block witholding and then release it strategically such that 50% of the hashrate is mining on one block, 50% on the other
<luke-jr>
Taek: eh, it doesn't have to
<Taek>
are you suggesting something more like an attack at the p2p layer?
<Taek>
hmm. It would be difficult because you can't really 'save up' hashrate to deploy on each half of the chain. You don't know which side of the chain will get the next block, and when they get it you haven't had enough time to reliably mine an opposing block anyway, even if you were mining on the right side.
<cjcj>
Taek: The soft fork would force miners to validate the sidechain instead of having voluntary merge-mining. It shouldn't affect the main chain at all. Am I missing something?
<cjcj>
Taek: Kind of how adam3us proposed extension blocks to increase tx throughput.
<luke-jr>
cjcj: that'd make the sidechain part of the mainchain
<cjcj>
luke-jr: yes, but only a commitment in the mainchain of the MW chain.
<luke-jr>
cjcj: a commitment that all full nodes must verfiy
<luke-jr>
and thus have the full "sidechain"
<cjcj>
luke-jr: Yes, bad idea?
<luke-jr>
cjcj: might as well just softfork it in
<luke-jr>
ie stop pretending it's a sidechain
<cjcj>
luke-jr: Don't know MW well enough, but it seems to be very different from how Bitcoin is structured today. How would such a soft fork look like?
<Taek>
you'd still have to verify the full main chain, which means you're losing out on the scalability benefits. The privacy benefits are maybe maintained, but it the privacy benefits don't really seem to be that strong without adding additional complexity
<Taek>
if you soft-fork in MW, either you drop features from the main chain, or you maintain two separate consensus sets (std utxo, MW) in which case you lose scaling benefits
<luke-jr>
cjcj: I don't know MW well enough to try adapting it
<luke-jr>
cjcj: I'd guess a single transaction with the MW stuff
<Taek>
re: stalling consensus - seems like it'd be easier to do in DAGs, as you are able to 'save up' blocks on each side of the chain and release them as the opposing chain finds them.
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<andytoshi>
cjcj: what you're describing really is just an extension block, « sidechain » is just a buzzword
<andytoshi>
and it's certainly possible in principle, though this is a lot of complexity
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