sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<luke-jr> it occurs to me that we'd have essentially MAST already if we had gone with OP_EVAL..
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<amiller> hi neha
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<FNinTak> neha: was referencing the author of the PoSpace paper I posted earlier, not the SpaceMint author
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<katu> FNinTak: NaS (nothing at stake) https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf
<katu> with PoSpace it gets worse, because you dont need to hoard to long range attack the chain, all you need is to be 51% miner at any time to start long range attack until you catch up to the tip.
<FNinTak> hoard? No ownership of currency required for a long range attack
<FNinTak> I think you're referencing the problem gmaxwell brought up earlier, which is that b/c "hashrate" is not directly dependent on energy usage attacks are cheaper and development of specialized hardware more plausible
<katu> yea, i probably mislabel long range here. anyhow, the point is that with PoS youre at least capped by capital
<katu> but with pospace youre not
<katu> yes
<katu> thats all category of NaS
<katu> costless simulation etc
<FNinTak> Capped wrt. how long this attack could be? there is some non-trivial energy cost, based on energy consumption of memory/storage medium
<FNinTak> though it is much lower than that of hashing, it is non-zero
<katu> no, all pospaces have "fast proof", all you need is to be beefy miner *for a while*
<katu> to outpace chain growth including history to the past youre starting at
<katu> anyhow, that can be fixed by getting PoW oracle, which can possibly be external, though not really sure about that yet
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<FNinTak> I don't see how that doesn't also apply to Bitcoin...yes mining is cheaper wrt. energy and this lowers the cost of attack, assuming you already have state-of-the-art hardware
<katu> FNinTak: you can't grind in bitcoin. in bitcoin it takes a while to get a block.
<katu> pospace and pos is instant.
<katu> this is why you need oracle
<katu> anyhow, read the nas paper
<katu> (in pospace not really "instant" - youre capped by your disk bw, but is definitely not something you want to put bets on)
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