sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<nsh>
what might be a nice topic to talk about to the british computing society?
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<amiller>
i think i didn't realize some stuff about how segwit affects bitcoin script programming
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<amiller>
because you can build chains or trees of transactions representing different code paths, and just exchange signatures on all of them ahead of time
<amiller>
maybe lightning takes advantage of some of this
<amiller>
maybe i didn't really get the distinction between the "inherent" kind of transaction malleability, where someone can modify their own signature
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<amiller>
and the "surprise" transaction malleability where someone other than the signer could do it
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<maaku>
That's basically what lightning is and why it has a segwit dependency
<maaku>
:)
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<amiller>
what a waste of time
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<sipa>
clearlt
<sipa>
clearly
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<amiller>
i'm pretty sure i can fix the N-player lottery now
<amiller>
is there a guide anyone recommends on how to program bitcoin smart contracts post-Segwit and post-CLTV, that doesn't go straight into Lightning specifics?
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<maaku>
Not really, no. One thing I would personally like and have been trying to find collaborators on is a DSL for compiling these transaction trees from a high level language, e.g. Haskell.
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<maaku>
You can also abstract the daemon itself using pi calculus so that Lightning like systems can be specified as abstract state machines in a common high level DSL
<maaku>
I know of no one that is working on this however.
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<roasbeef>
maaku: GreenIsMyPepper and I are extremely interested in such a system, we've had many hallway convos on the matter, nothing concrete yet though
<kanzure>
is there a state transition specification of lightning at all?
<kanzure>
i felt sort of bad about all the source code in lightningd and lnd-- some of it seems like it should be generated in a few areas instead of handwritten
<kanzure>
(although not all of it, of course.)
<kanzure>
or if not generated, then at least function calls to setup the expected sequences from simpler primitives
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<maaku>
roasbeef: excellent. maybe we can collaborate on this
<maaku>
I had wanted to get a proof of concept done and then crash the lightning dev meeting with some proselytizing, but I guess that's not needed
<maaku>
I'm going to be busy doing my actual talk for scaling bitcoin anyway, so any work on this will have to come after :\
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<legogris>
Hi all! Does anyone know if Jia Liu, Saqib kakvi or Bogdan Warinshi are frequenting this channel?
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<kanzure>
what are their usernames?
<legogris>
kanzure: That's kind of what I am trying to figure out. They wrote a paper referencing this channel so I figured they might be idling here if nothing else.
<legogris>
Witness Encryption and Timed+Releas Encryption
<legogris>
I find the idea of using witness encryption for timed release very promising and want to figure out if anyone has given a sho at implementing it
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<amiller>
hi legogris
<amiller>
i think if they're here they've not identiifed themselves, you should email them and ask!
<legogris>
amiller: Hi! I've been reading a bit of the backlog here, you seem to have been contributing to both papers on the topic through discussion :)
<amiller>
yeah, i think there's an aspect of my version about it that isn't explored in those other papers yet
<amiller>
which is that you can have "conditional time release encryption"
<amiller>
where the miners will decrypt your secret by time T2, *unless* you post some particular kind of transaction by time T1
<amiller>
not sure what to do with that though :)
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<legogris>
Right, could be very interesting for a "dead-mans-grip" kind of use case
<legogris>
I would like to try to implement time-release, would be supoer helpful if anyone has made some kind of PoC that I could glean at
<katu>
there are difficult aspects for timelocks, the naive version assumes that hashrate remains constant (or follows some guessed projection)
<katu>
not really hashrate either, pollard-rho-rate. more complex implementations are possible (there will be a lot of timelocks waiting at any given time, and work can be allocated for each according to "drift"), i wonder if theres a paper going into more detail to deal with this.
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<waxwing>
this channel seems to have serious user count stickiness at 2^8
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<arubi>
that makes a pretty boring collatz spin
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