sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<bsm1175321>
If only one could devise some kind of blind Dutch auction mechanism for the transaction fee instead...
<bsm1175321>
e.g. a 2nd price Dutch auction a la ebay, done in zero knowledge....
blkdb has quit [Write error: Broken pipe]
jack_ has quit [Excess Flood]
blkdb has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jack_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gnusha has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roasbeef_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
andytosh1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nickler_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gnusha_ has quit [Write error: Broken pipe]
roasbeef has quit [Write error: Broken pipe]
licnep_ has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
nickler has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
andytoshi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
helo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<bsm1175321>
Perhaps one could write a range proof for the fee you're willing to pay...
e4xit_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
helo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gigq_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jl2012_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
weeeeeew_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
gigq has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
jl2012 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
e4xit has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
weeeeeew has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
e4xit_ is now known as e4xit
jl2012_ is now known as jl2012
<bsm1175321>
You'd want that the fee output paid to a miner ends up being a confidential transaction, essentially, while executing some kind of auction pricing mechanism in zero knowledge. That way, future miners can't know how much the miner was paid in fees, and eliminates (somewhat) incentives to try to fee-snipe previous blocks.
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
ipwn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
isis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
DigiByteDev has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321>
A "second price" auction mechanism might be used -- where all transactions in a block pay the same fee, and that fee is set by the lowest bidding transaction that made it into the block.
<bsm1175321>
This provides some price stability. Each individual miner might have negotiate directly with transactors, but the maximum bid they were willing to pay is hidden.
<bsm1175321>
All of this said, I strongly dislike making a market out of an arbitrary and artificial restriction like block size...
ipwn has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Aranjedeath has quit [Quit: Three sheets to the wind]
_whitelogger has joined #bitcoin-wizards
so has joined #bitcoin-wizards
brg444 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
domwoe has joined #bitcoin-wizards
xsdfdfsa has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Ylbam has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
STRML has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
da2ce7_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
kanzure has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
zxzzt_ has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
dabura667 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
henrytill has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
nephyrin` has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sparetire has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
infinite has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
ithicad has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
jeremyrubin has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
petertodd has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
draynium has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
nephyrin has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
mryandao has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
mhanne has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
kanzure has joined #bitcoin-wizards
zxzzt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kabaum has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
petertodd has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jeremyrubin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kabaum has joined #bitcoin-wizards
STRML has joined #bitcoin-wizards
draynium has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sparetire has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mryandao has joined #bitcoin-wizards
henrytill has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mhanne has joined #bitcoin-wizards
henrytill has quit [Changing host]
henrytill has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dabura667 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
da2ce7 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ipwn has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ithicad has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sanmi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
PRab has joined #bitcoin-wizards
domwoe has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
anon616 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
anon616 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
isis has joined #bitcoin-wizards
kanzure has quit [Changing host]
kanzure has joined #bitcoin-wizards
domwoe has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aalex has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
aalex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
xsdfdfsa is now known as coca_koala
coca_koala is now known as Guest46027
Guest46027 is now known as CocaKoala
CocaKoala is now known as NelsonMandela
alpalp has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
infinite has joined #bitcoin-wizards
domwoe has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
DigiByteDev has quit [Quit: DigiByteDev]
Burrito has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
legogris has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
legogris has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GreekMiner9 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DigiByteDev has joined #bitcoin-wizards
infinite has quit [Quit: Leaving]
infinite has joined #bitcoin-wizards
infinite has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
DigiByteDev has quit [Client Quit]
infinite has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has quit [Quit: Leaving]
domwoe has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
DigiByteDev has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
TheSeven has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
domwoe has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
TheSeven has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bsm1175321 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
jack_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
bsm117532 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
paveljanik has quit [Quit: Leaving]
bsm117532 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
Alopex has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Alopex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bsm117532 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
domwoe has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
null_radix has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
domwoe has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
buckowski has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
domwoe has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has joined #bitcoin-wizards
rusty has left #bitcoin-wizards [#bitcoin-wizards]
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aalex has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
BashCo_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Topogetcyrpto_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
aalex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mkarrer has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
mkarrer has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
sanmi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mkarrer_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
buckowski has joined #bitcoin-wizards
mkarrer has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
DigiByteDev has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
BashCo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
gielbier has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
xissburg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
edvorg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
null_radix has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
CrazyLoaf has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
edvorg has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
edvorg has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
domwoe has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Ylbam has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
hazirafel has joined #bitcoin-wizards
edvorg has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
sanmi has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CrazyLoaf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
markus-k has joined #bitcoin-wizards
draynium has quit [Quit: <No reason given>]
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto
bildramer1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bildramer has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
bildramer1 is now known as bildramer
Guyver2 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aalex has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
NelsonMandela has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
draynium has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aalex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
hazirafel has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
jannes has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Emcy_ has quit [Changing host]
mr_burdell has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has quit [Quit: Leaving]
berndj-blackout has joined #bitcoin-wizards
dnaleor has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Pasha has joined #bitcoin-wizards
trippysa1mon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
katu_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
smooth_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
otoburb_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aj_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bertani has joined #bitcoin-wizards
instagibbs_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
qpm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
afk11_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
huseby has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
qpm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has quit [*.net *.split]
sanmi has quit [*.net *.split]
c0rw1n has quit [*.net *.split]
spinza has quit [*.net *.split]
ithicad has quit [*.net *.split]
Emcy has quit [*.net *.split]
maaku has quit [*.net *.split]
instagibbs has quit [*.net *.split]
berndj has quit [*.net *.split]
Cory has quit [*.net *.split]
aj has quit [*.net *.split]
BonyM1 has quit [*.net *.split]
execute has quit [*.net *.split]
trippysalmon has quit [*.net *.split]
Guest13412 has quit [*.net *.split]
smooth has quit [*.net *.split]
bertani_ has quit [*.net *.split]
afk11 has quit [*.net *.split]
katu has quit [*.net *.split]
otoburb has quit [*.net *.split]
yoleaux has quit [*.net *.split]
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Pasha is now known as Cory
GreekMiner9 has quit [Quit: Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de]
pro has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
qpm has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
qpm has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ithicad has joined #bitcoin-wizards
pro has joined #bitcoin-wizards
spinza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BonyM1 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
huseby has joined #bitcoin-wizards
maaku has joined #bitcoin-wizards
maaku is now known as Guest40901
GreekMiner9 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aalex has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
huseby has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
aalex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
GreekMiner9 has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
sam_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sam_ is now known as sanmi
aalex has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
aalex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aalex has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
huseby has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aalex has joined #bitcoin-wizards
aalex has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
CrazyLoaf has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sanmi has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
sam_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto
berndj-blackout is now known as berndj
bedeho has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vghzfkgh has joined #bitcoin-wizards
vghzfkgh has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
bsm1175321 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alferz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Starduster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm1175321>
@andytosh1 Could a sinking signature be created that (compactly) represents the net flow of funds from one "shard" of the UTXO set to another? That is, represents a net transfer from UTXOs (0x0000...0x7ffff...) to/from (0x8000...0xffff....)?
<bsm1175321>
If so, this could be used to shard the UTXO set, so that nodes can provide a service by running a node while holding only a fraction of the UTXO set.
<kanzure>
petertodd: what is the origin of probabilistic validation in the proof-of-publication proposals?
<bsm1175321>
(Probably in combination with your idea of tree-ing out the PoW and aggregating it)
<thomsthetank>
Hey, I'm having a problem with a mainchain to sidechain transaction on elements. After I relay all the transactions I still don't receive my coins on the sidechain.
WungFu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
bsm117532 is now known as Guest91688
bsm1175321 is now known as bsm117532
cyphase has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
funkenstein_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
cyphase has joined #bitcoin-wizards
c0rw1n has joined #bitcoin-wizards
andytosh1 is now known as andytoshi
<andytoshi>
bsm117532: i don't think so, sinking signatures are actually not super compact, they're log-sized in the heights that they sign
BashCo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
BashCo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<andytoshi>
they also can't really represent flows of funds by themselves, they're signing with a public key that has a pile of information about a transaction in it (and i don't see how that could be made to interact with sharding)
<bsm117532>
They still have to contain all the outputs, no?
<andytoshi>
no, the sinking signature is only on the transaction excess commitment
<bsm117532>
Couldn't the excess be the cross-shard excess?
<andytoshi>
it doesn't know anything about outputs, the only thing a sinking signature proves is that a single commitment is zero
<andytoshi>
i suppose so
<andytoshi>
i don't really know what that would mean though
<bsm117532>
Well it could represent a flow of funds, so that I can trust that the sharding is operating correctly and funds are not being created or destroyed. (without holding all the data)
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<andytoshi>
i don't think so, you need to see all the rangeproofs of every output in a shard to know that no funds were created or destroyed on it
<bsm117532>
Perhaps if a miner were to write/sign the cross-shard excess? Other miners holding the same shard can verify its correctness and mine on top of it.
BashCo has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto
Giszmo1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
paveljanik has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
BashCo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
sam_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
sam_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nooblord has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Guest40901 has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
maaku has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MoALTz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
domwoe has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jtimon has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
funkenstein_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
funkenstein_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
nooblord has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
brguy has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Giszmo has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Davasny has joined #bitcoin-wizards
funkenstein_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Client Quit]
<adlai>
bsm117532: i disagree that empty blockspace is worthless. it signals to blockspace consumers, "if you'd paid more, i might have included your transaction"
Giszmo has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<adlai>
thomsthetank: i believe there's a dedicated channel for elements alpha
Aranjedeath has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
<bsm117532>
adlai: the pricing model implied has no basis in reality. It doesn't cost a miner more to produce a block with one more transaction.
<adlai>
but i thought "a transaction fee market exists without a block size limit"? :D
<bsm117532>
Did I say that?
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<nsh>
(it's not established that anything exists [maintains sustainable consensus] without block limits, as afaik it's not been tested)
<nsh>
*blocksize
<adlai>
it's the title of Peter__R's paper... quoted ironically
<bsm117532>
Hahaa I see ;-)
CrazyLoaf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
lmatteis has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
alferz has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
jack_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
jack_ has quit [Client Quit]
chjj has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
JHistone has joined #bitcoin-wizards
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
commandroid has joined #bitcoin-wizards
roasbeef_ is now known as roasbeef
Noldorin has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
jaromil has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto
Starduster has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Chris_Stewart_5 has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
commandroid has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Starduster has joined #bitcoin-wizards
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
davec has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
davec has joined #bitcoin-wizards
MoALTz has quit [Quit: Leaving]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
tripleslash has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
laurentmt has joined #bitcoin-wizards
tripleslash has joined #bitcoin-wizards
instagibbs_ is now known as instagibbs
laurentmt has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
CrazyLoaf has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
ThomasV has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Alina-malina is now known as alina-malina
Guest66594 has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
gnusha has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
gnusha has joined #bitcoin-wizards
metric has joined #bitcoin-wizards
metric is now known as Guest39518
Burrito has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Noldorin has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Topogetcyrpto_ is now known as Topogetcyrpto
thomsthetank has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Guyver2 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
sam_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Davasny_ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Davasny__ has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Davasny has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Davasny_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Chris_Stewart_5 has joined #bitcoin-wizards
smooth_ is now known as smooth
WungFu has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Davasny__ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
midnightmagic has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
ThomasV has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
murch has joined #bitcoin-wizards
priidu has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
jtimon has joined #bitcoin-wizards
CrazyLoaf has joined #bitcoin-wizards
chjj has joined #bitcoin-wizards
Topogetcyrpto has quit [Quit: Topogetcyrpto]
molz has joined #bitcoin-wizards
moli has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
oleganza has joined #bitcoin-wizards
midnightmagic has joined #bitcoin-wizards
LeMiner has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Burrito has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
midnightmagic has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]