sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<musalbas> petertodd, had another read of https://web-payments.org/specs/source/pop2016/ - why do you think it's a dumb protocol? it seems fairly reasonable (even though there's no requirement to be able to "audit" the full set of items making it proof-of-existence)
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<musalbas> 'The mission of this group is to establish a standard for creating a universally verifiable proof of any data, file, or series of events, by anchoring data to the blockchain and other sources. This allows anyone to prove the data existed at a point in time and has not been modified.
<musalbas> '
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<adlai> "modified data" is like "variable constant"
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<kanzure> musalbas: well the first concern is probably that proof-of-publication there is not proof-of-publication
<kanzure> hence 'dumb'
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* adlai elaborates on kanzure's statement - publication means making available, that spec is about proving something existed, but makes no guarantee it was "available", whatever that even means
<adlai> (to whom? in exchange for what? etc)
<adlai> availability generally devolves into "all the good ones are either taken or handicapped"
<musalbas> adlai: we had this discussion before, but as petertodd said, the thing that you might be proving to publish is merely a hash. That could be useful for example in the case of certificate transparency, where you could publish a hash of a merkle tree of certs, and you have to provide the merkle-proof with each sig, but if you don't externally supply the full tree somewhere for any auditor to see, then the world can raise a red flag that
<musalbas> you are not be transparent
<musalbas> not being*
<musalbas> in that case, the -full set- of items is important
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<musalbas> in that example, the merkle-proof is useful, because you a proving to the person that is accepting your certificate that you published the hash of the merkle tree containing it, which either the CA, the browser vendor, or site owners can attempt to find the full data of to audit, or else fail the audit
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<adlai> musalbas: who are you? i do not remember discussing this with you. the internet remembers me discussing it with kanzure and bsm-four-primes ( https://botbot.me/freenode/bitcoin-wizards/2016-10-04/?msg=74158233&page=2 ), and i remember "duking it out in milan" with kanzure yesterday; but never with you.
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<adlai> what about proof-of-auditability, rather than claim-that-i-audited?
<musalbas> adlai, not with me specifically, but you commented on it a few days ago when i posted the w3c pop proposal here, and there was a general discussion
<adlai> ie, anybody who wants to redo the audit after the original "publisher" has died in a tragic library fire, and all his notebooks lost forever - can still audit the thing, because the data was available.
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<adlai> yeah, please reread (ok, maybe not you-ie-musalbas, but you-the-lurker) what i linked. i think i made myself clear, but if i didn't, please ask a specific question.
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<musalbas> reread what? the log you linked?
<adlai> yeah
<adlai> again, you probably did, if you're citing it. i'm providing the link for people who haven't, yet.
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<adlai> i have not studied the W3C proposal enough to have technical complaints, i'm just pissed that they've redefined "publication" to mean "i had the data, so anybody could have!"
<adlai> kinda funny how the first link in a think about link is rot
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<musalbas> there is actually a w3c community group that is creating a protocol for the same thing but not calling it 'proof of publication' but some proof thing www.chainpoint.org
<musalbas> well, they're calling it proof-of-existence
<musalbas> thanks
<musalbas> <adlai> ie, anybody who wants to redo the audit after the original "publisher" has died in a tragic library fire, and all his notebooks lost forever - can still audit the thing, because the data was available.
<musalbas> that is a good point, and a limitation, but that may not be relevant limitation depending on the use case
<musalbas> in the case of CT for example, if your aim is only to "detect" rogue certs, you only need the owner of a host to check once
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<musalbas> the proof-of-publication of a hash proves to the user that the certificate the user is being supplied is auditable, so that if it emerges that a i.e. CA isn't being transparent about the content of a hash, steps can be taken by a browser vendor or site owner or the CA itself if it figures it had been compromised
<musalbas> it doesn't prove that the certificate itself has been published, just that *a* certificate was
<musalbas> what certificate was published*
<musalbas> be back soon
<musalbas> (maybe the takeaway lesson from here is to never use the word 'proof-of-publication' for anything because there's too much conflicting opinions over the semantics of the term)
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<kanzure> `/win 80
<kanzure> hmph
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<fluffypony> kanzure: tks for the transcripts
<kanzure> yep..
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<petertodd> musalbas: IIRC what's dumb about it is it's not defining what exactly it's trying to prevent from happening
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<musalbas> presumably someone creating a signature with a backdated "created" date that is before it was actually created
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<petertodd> musalbas: that's a timestamp; their structure isn't what you want for timestamps
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<musalbas> petertodd, I don't see how it's significantly different than OpenTimestamp apart from OpenTimestamp using merkle mountain ranges and this using merkle trees
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<ybit_> hadn't seen this chart outlining spv before
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<petertodd> musalbas: the difference is that opentimestamps doesn't specify merkle trees in the specifcation; if you're just creating timestamps you don't need to specify *how* the timestamps are created
<petertodd> musalbas: that's an implementation detail, not a consensus detail
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<musalbas> the data structure used to create a timestamp for set of items in the same bitcoin transaction (merkle tree) is a relevant part of the specification, given that the verifier must understand how to verify a specific item from the said data structure, making it a matter of consensus
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<JackH> what would be a good example of a non standard transaction?
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<petertodd> musalbas: well, that's the thing, you don't need that datastructure to be part of the spec if you are just timestamping; opentimestamps uses an arbitrary series of commitment operations to represent a timestamp
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<musalbas> is that documented / described somewhere petertodd?
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<musalbas> anyway, it seems like more of a nitpick to me :-)
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<JackH> our payment processor is being exploited with very low fee's at the moment
<JackH> people buying, but including a fee that most likely wont clear in the next....next many days
<JackH> any suggestion from wizards?
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<fluffypony> don't accept 0-conf?
<musalbas> or only accept transaction with reasonable fees
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<petertodd> musalbas: it's a pretty fundemental diference of opinion; opentimestamps specification is here: https://github.com/opentimestamps/python-opentimestamps/tree/master/opentimestamps/core - main things you want to read are op.py and timestamp.py to see the structure of timestamps
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<kanzure> BlueMatt: but really, you should send email about weak blocks and compact blocks
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