sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm117532>
Taek: When merging multiple parents, using a PRNG to select the "winner" doesn't mean that the miner can't select the winner, it just means he has to mine an extra block on the branch of the parent he wants to "win".
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<bsm117532>
Do you know if mining this extra block a required element to hit the 51% guarantee in the asymptotic limit?
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<andytoshi>
are there any altcoins using cuckoo cycle that i can poke at the implementation of?
<tromp__>
cuckoo cycle solvers are on my project page
<tromp__>
no. but what would you like to see?
<tromp__>
both monero and zcash are considering adopting Cuckoo Cycle next year
<andytoshi>
oh, thanks tromp__, i'm just trying to learn how it works in some detail. in particular you mentioned there was a slow startup phase and that a longer blocktime might be needed for progress-freeness, and i want to know what the numbers look like
<andytoshi>
oh, ok, sorry, i should've read more than 20% of the readme before posting here then :0
<andytoshi>
:)
<tromp__>
to quote: The runtime of a single proof attempt on a high end x86 is 5.5min/GB single-threaded, or 1.5min/GB for 8 threads.
<tromp__>
GPUs are between 4 and 5 times faster
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<andytoshi>
can you adjust difficulty without adjusting memory requirement?
<tromp__>
so it's fast enough for a 10min block interval if you limit memory use to about 128MB
<tromp__>
not really, no
<andytoshi>
ok, cool, thanks
<tromp__>
there is a fixed ratio between memory use and runtime
<andytoshi>
yeah, i guess that makes sense if your TMTO free
<tromp__>
independent of cycle length, for instance
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<tromp__>
well, equihash allows some more freedom there
<tromp__>
although you cannot take that too far, with proofsize being exponential in k
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<tromp__>
i was suprised zcash chose proofs of several KB
<tromp__>
due to the rather large k=9
<tromp__>
btw, would blockstream like to donate some BTC to the Cuckoo Cycle Bounty Fund?
<tromp__>
I'm hoping to significantly raise my bounties
<tromp__>
to 10BTC per performance doubling
<andytoshi>
i'll forward it, but i think our interest is purely academic right now
<tromp__>
fair enough:)
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<andytoshi>
i don't know anything about equihash, i understand it's a scheme for using multiple pow functions? this makes me nervous about optimization-freeness, i'd expect if cuckoo was mem-hard and nothing else was that it'd just be ignored by high-powered miners
<tromp__>
no, it's based on the generalized birthday paradox
<tromp__>
but where cuckoo cycle seems to be memory latency bound, equihash is more memory bandwidth bound
<tromp__>
it may be much less optimization-free than cuckoo though, due to nontrivial data structure and algorithm options
<andytoshi>
yeah, i havent' looked closely, it seems like cuckoo is simpler. tho maybe i'm just mistaking familiarity for simplicity
<tromp__>
cuckoo is definitely simpler. both in problem statement and implementation
<tromp__>
well, talking about prt of implementation that dominates runtime
<tromp__>
the final processing phase is rather subtle, but only take 1 or 2% of runtime:)
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<bobbytherobby>
Hey guys quick question. I know it's possible to encode a "memo" into a Confidential Tx. I'm just wondering where this memo would be specified. Any hints are extremely welcome lol
<waxwing>
bobbytherobby: embedded into the range proof attached to the output (xored in)
<andytoshi>
bobbytherobby: the current CT code doesn't let you specify the memo, though it supports it (the required changes are entirely limited to the API)
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<Taek>
If intel actually did add SHA support to their CPUs, would it be possible to write competitive miners that used home computers?
<Taek>
I'm sure the hashrate would be v. low, but if it paid for the electricy that went to power it?
<Taek>
perhaps the road to fairness is paved by hardware accelleration as opposed to algoithms that are not ASIC friendly
<Taek>
<bsm117532> Do you know if mining this extra block a required element to hit the 51% guarantee in the asymptotic limit?
<Taek>
no I'm pretty sure it's just an implementation detail, it only comes into play during ties
<Taek>
for safety I typically assume the attacker will win all ties, just because it simplifies the math
<bsm117532>
Ok. Yeah it doesn't hurt.
<bsm117532>
I'd be very suprised if the +1 mattered in an asymptotic proof.
<Taek>
so, in trying to figure out how we could bypass the convergence problem for very tiny block times, I had one idea
<Taek>
and, this doesn't help your confirmation status
<Taek>
but I was thinking if a block is X times as lucky, for a single value of X, then it'd get X/2 bonus votes down its edges
<Taek>
For example, if you pick a block time of 1 second, you might put X at 20
<Taek>
so every 20 seconds on average, someone random on the network would find a block with 10 seconds worth of weight
<Taek>
that pretty much guarantees stuff will converge
<Taek>
but also means an attacker can double spend if they get a bunch of these lucky blocks
<Taek>
so you'd want to consider confirmations in terms of # of lucky blocks instead of total number of blocks
<Taek>
which means you are still waiting 5-15 minutes to get a confirmation, and 60+ minutes if you fear a 45% hashrate attacker
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<bsm117532>
The "settlement time" is a function of the network "size" parameter ~6s. Regardless of block time, the settlement time will be (few)*(size of network in s). IOW you have to wait until you can see the entire global state, whether that's graph cuts like cohorts or "lucky" blocks doesn't really matter.
<bsm117532>
So what's the benefit of block times below the optimal one that I calculated?
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<Taek>
maybe in reality the gains will not be as significant as I'm imagining
<Taek>
the other benefit is that you get your security confirmations faster, but that benefit is removed if you are allowing random blocks to have a lot more voting power
<bsm117532>
Dunno, that's a good argument. But this road leads to nuking the p2p layer too...
<bsm117532>
You don't get security confirmations faster. You can't know what's happening on the other side of the world...
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<Taek>
yeah I'm not sure how the p2p layer would handle a continuous stream of blocks like that
<Taek>
the current system requires you to wait 60+ minutes for confirmations in the presence of a 45% hashrate attacker
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<Taek>
if the block time was 250ms you'd only need to wait like 5 minutes
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<bsm117532>
Well those gains have to come from improving the relay and network topology.
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<bsm117532>
Just turning down the block time won't let you get confirmations faster than the network propagates information.
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<Taek>
the bottleneck is not network propagation speed, it's the fact that an adversary can get lucky and perform enough work to reorg the chain
<Taek>
when you have 50 confirmations and a 45% hashrate attacker, getting lucky enough to reorg 50 deep will happen something like 1% of the time
<Taek>
which is not a great security bound given that double spend attempts are costless when you don't have any orphans
<bsm117532>
The bottleneck is the network propagation speed. If there are miners on Mars, you can't get settlement time below the ping time between miners.
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<Taek>
the bottleneck is eventually network propagation speed, but we've got an earlier bottleneck based on mining variance
<bsm117532>
Oh I see what you're getting at...
<bsm117532>
I just ran into your code that calculates that today...can you describe how you calculated it?
<Taek>
yeah
<Taek>
I'm actually not super confident that it's correct
<Taek>
but basically it runs a bunch of network ticks
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<Taek>
and each tick the honest side of the hashrate and the dishonest side of the hashrate have some probability of finding a block
<Taek>
it runs network ticks until one side reaches the desired number of confirmations
<Taek>
then you have your winner
<bsm117532>
Seems to me that would take an awful lot of iterations, especially as you approached 50%.
<bsm117532>
Ok so you're not executing a specific attack strategy, just looking at reorg rate with a 45% miner?
<Taek>
the attacker needs fewer confirmations, because we assume that the attacker is able to instantly propagate blocks, that is, the honest side of the network may have a block or two that were mined, but not propagated in time
<Taek>
yeah just looking at how frequently a x% miner can cause a reorg Y blocks deep given Z block time and W propagation latency
<bsm117532>
gotcha
<Taek>
my numbers disagree with the numbers listed in the Bitcoin whitepaper
<bsm117532>
I'm not sure assuming the attacker can instantly propagate blocks is a good assumption. It's valid for Bitcoin now with its randomly interconnected network, but ultimately the attacker is limited by physics and the network's topology should optimize.
<Taek>
it keeps things simple, and guarantees that the attacker is not too weak
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<bsm117532>
e.g. right now an attacker can have a ~6s/250ms advantage because of the network, but with improvements that number approaches 1.
<Taek>
if the attacker and the honest hashrate are all located in the same country, any assumptions about global latency could be invalidated
<bsm117532>
True. That's why I want to directly measure the network latency from the graph structure. It will automatically adapt if hashrate collects in a small geographic area. (not that this is a desirable outcome...)
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