sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<Guest91688>
I'm beginning to think that having miners take tx fees is a bad idea. No matter the algorithm, there is a window of time where orphaning/sniping is more profitable than mining a new block (assuming the previous miner maximized his profits)
Guest91688 is now known as bsm117532
<bsm117532>
Tx fees would make more sense if the "service" being performed by miners was validating transactions. It's not...everyone validates transactions. The service being performed is committing real-world value into the ledger, in the form of hashcash PoW.
<bsm117532>
Tying hashcash to the available tx fees means that miners should rightfully only allocate as much PoW-brute-forcing as matches the fees collected.
<bsm117532>
They should turn off a fraction of their miners proportional to the (fees available)/(fees expected)
<bsm117532>
(relative to the block time)
<bsm117532>
A model where coins are destroyed in tx fees and re-created in the coinbase makes more sense. The expected reward for miners is therefore approximately constant over time.
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<mryandao>
bsm117532: did you mention this in ##bitcoin couple of days ago?
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<Jonas_>
anyone know about solo mining altcoins?
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<Jonas_>
bounty of 10 bits offered
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<Taek>
<Guest91688> I'm beginning to think that having miners take tx fees is a bad idea. No matter the algorithm, there is a window of time where orphaning/sniping is more profitable than mining a new block (assuming the previous miner maximized his profits)
<Taek>
That's not true
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<Taek>
Choosing to mine on something other than the main chain means your block has at most a 50% chance of being accepted.
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<Taek>
in the thought experiment of an infinitely deep transaction pool where all transactions have the same exact fee value, you can see that it's always beneficial to mine on the main chain
<Taek>
Therefore there's some wiggle-room in algorithm design for finding incentive-compatible fee structures
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<Taek>
*assuming finite sized blocks
<Taek>
<bsm117532> A model where coins are destroyed in tx fees and re-created in the coinbase makes more sense. The expected reward for miners is therefore approximately constant over time.
<Taek>
That is equivalent to a transaction fee pool
<Taek>
Any sort of banning of transaction fees can always be circumvented by using other methods to get the payments to miners
<Taek>
well, barring some sort of permissioned system
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<bsm117532>
Taek "banning of tx fees can always be circumvented" -- yes, e.g. submit your block directly to the miner alongside a payment specifically to him, to get it in the next block.
<Taek>
or leave an output in your transaction that's anyone-can-spend
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<jtimon>
yeah, miners should treat OP_TRUE outputs as fees to them, and claim them
<bsm117532>
I've always found the mempool to be a weird concept. Why should a miner relay a transaction rather than try to claim it for himself?
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<Taek>
it's good for usability of the system if transactions have a high probability of getting confirmed quickly
<Taek>
also, why should full nodes relay transactions or blocks?
<Taek>
if nobody does any relaying, the system breaks. Big miners might like the idea of hoarding transactions, but practically speaking it'll impact their orphan rate
<Taek>
and even if it didn't, the p2p layer will get the transactions to the other miners anyway
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<Iriez>
I wanted to share this here, because this is where most of the academics are. For those interested in studying behavior networks and emergent behavior on consensus, here is a highly valuable recently published paper on the topic
<Iriez>
(I was not trying to mix satoshi consensus with social consensus)
<Iriez>
This is a psychology paper, not a technology paper, so I understand this. It was merely a tidbut for those looking to delve into the sociological aspects.
<Iriez>
I figure time spent reading academic models on social behavior theory is better time spent than arguing on reddit with trolls, like I see some developers do :P
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