sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<andytoshi>
hi igno_peverell thank you for this
<andytoshi>
are you using the voldemort sigs or the sinking signatures from the poelstra paper?
<kanzure>
(batsignal worked)
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<igno_peverell>
andytoshi: for now simple voldemort type sigs, but sinking signatures are in the TODO list
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<igno_peverell>
nice addition btw
<andytoshi>
igno_peverell: awesome, i think this is best for a while, (a) nobody understands sinking signatures, this is hard enough to explain and get mindshare without them, (b) they mess up the ergonomics of the system, (c) they interact badly with payment channels
<andytoshi>
igno_peverell: having said this, we can do schnorr-style aggregation like what sipa has been working on, and get space savings on top of the voldemort scheme without any user-visible changes
<igno_peverell>
yes, there may be other construnctions to obtain the same effect but it's nice to see you've been thinking about it as well
<andytoshi>
i'm glad you chose rust here, i'd put a bunch of work into a C implementation then got super frustrated with C and decided to switch to rust (but hadn't yet started cutting code)
<igno_peverell>
I've also been thinking about the threat model of pruning range proofs
<andytoshi>
afaict it's really bad, you can get unlimited inflation with one bad rangeproof :/
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<igno_peverell>
right, I don't have something very concrete yet, mostly a feeling that once you have the UTXO merkle tree or the (head-X) block you've synced, you already have some guarantees assuming you can double check that with the rest of the network
<midnightmagic>
grendeltoshi
<grindeltoshi>
igno_peverell: yeah, that's true, you can definitely get SPV security of no-negative-outputs
<grindeltoshi>
while still having full security of everything else
<igno_peverell>
right, along a relaxed SPV-style model
<igno_peverell>
I've kept the rangeproof out of output hashes for that reason
<igno_peverell>
grindeltoshi: thank you for your secp256k1 Rust wrapper btw, I've had to extend it to support the zkp stuff
<grindeltoshi>
igno_peverell: thanks very much, i had been putting this off because there is some API cleanup that i had wanted to do in secp256k1-zkp first
<grindeltoshi>
but mimblewimble is more exciting, good that we've got something now :)
<igno_peverell>
was my impression as well that the zkp stuff was still in progress, was planning to send a pull request your way eventually, once the dust settles
<grindeltoshi>
that's a correct impression. the next version of elements, whenever that lands, will have API cleanups in it and also sign the output scripts (i think) (tho we don't care about this for MW which has no scripts)
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<igno_peverell>
grindeltoshi: MW is very cool, feel free to file issues if you find any problem with the impl
<grindeltoshi>
igno_peverell: thanks. i might, i'll prefer to submit PRs, it's exciting to get this off the ground
<igno_peverell>
PRs are even better
<grindeltoshi>
i've been meaning to post a "here's my plan" doc on r/mimblewimble for a week, i keep getting distracted
<grindeltoshi>
igno_peverell: so i think fast blocktimes are incompatible with cuckoo cycle
<igno_peverell>
grindeltoshi: in which way?
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<grindeltoshi>
igno_peverell: an important feature of PoW is progress-freeness, that having a fast machine doesn't let you "race" other participants, but tromp's current implementation takes like 1.5min/Gb on 8 threads on a PC
<grindeltoshi>
he says 4-5x speedup on a CPU, and there are probably some algorithmic speedups to be found
<grindeltoshi>
but you want to have tens of thousands of attempts per blocktime per user to get reasonable progress-freeness
<grindeltoshi>
tromp: does « for a given header, the odds of its graph having a 42-cycle are about 2.5% » on the cuckoo cycle README imply that a valid header will be found after (on average) 40 attempts?
<grindeltoshi>
oh, no, i see, there's also a sha2 difficulty target, sorry
<igno_peverell>
right, there are multiple knobs there, including connectivity and total graph size
<igno_peverell>
I've been using a 2^20 size with 75% edges for tests so it's fast to run, default is 2^28 size with 75% edges as well
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<igno_peverell>
I was meaning to try on seem beefy machine at some point and see what the numbers are like it terms of hashing per second
<igno_peverell>
and the sha3 step with classic bitcoin-style difficulty target does the rest
<grindeltoshi>
yep i see
<igno_peverell>
I like Cuckoo because the implementation is short and simple and it's easy to grasp as a whole, I'm trying to keep the idea of simplicity that's in MW
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<grindeltoshi>
yeah, i had also been leaning toward cuckoo cycle (though i had a chat with BlueMatt last week about centralization pressures and he convinced me that power distribution is not a critical one, which i had thought it was)
<grindeltoshi>
so there is the standard worry about mem-hard PoW leading to expensive hardware that's cheap to run, meaning high barrier to entry, amortization for early players, and an entrenched oligopoly
<grindeltoshi>
but it's simple and i'd like to experiment, so *shrug*
<igno_peverell>
agree, no need to worry about hard forks yet :P
<grindeltoshi>
igno_peverell: do you have block de/serialization? have you thought about the merkle tree structures you need?
<igno_peverell>
grindeltoshi: block (de)ser is here but I've avoided the utxo merkle tree so far, just been thinking about it
<grindeltoshi>
igno_peverell: can you serialize pruned blocks that are missing some txos?
<igno_peverell>
one is intra-block merge and the other is block addition
<grindeltoshi>
what do you mean by "merging blocks", what do the commitments to utxos look like?
<grindeltoshi>
it looks like you're making a new block with the old blocks' cut-through transactions, but what happens to the PoW?
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<grindeltoshi>
i think to get this to work properly the blocks need to retain their identity, you need to have a merkle structure that can be easily pruned (without changing the root)
<grindeltoshi>
i did a bunch of work on this in the c code, i can work on this over the weekend..
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<adlai>
roasbeef: i think your confusion re:coinswap stems from the fact that the original is a 3-party proposal
<adlai>
alice performs coinswap with an intermediary, causing the appearance of a payment at the target address with coins that are not linked back to alice
<adlai>
"appearance of payment" is bad wording, i mean causing the payment to happen. (not appearance-as-in-illusion, but as-in-occurrence)
<adlai>
the intermediary can collude with the receiver to expose alice, so imo the leakage flow is clearer when it's reformulated as a two-party protocol: https://gist.github.com/adlai/976d308efdb2e886ecb9
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<wasi>
http://mimblewimble.cash/ is now online.. with the idea to keep track of MW development. let me know if you think there is something missing or wrong.
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<bsm117532>
Hey look...2nd time the Lambert W function raises its head...
<tromp>
thx, kanzure. will browse
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<bsm117532>
If the block reward were directly the hashcash (instead of convolving it through the time-based reward function) it makes merging of blocks simple. The reward function means you have to "fix up" the reward for delayed blocks.
<bsm117532>
e.g. let the unit of account be directly the difficulty = 1/target.
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