sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<YiumPotato>
hello mighty wizards
<YiumPotato>
man very old logs are interesting =P
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<Taek>
re: "On the Instability of Bitcoin Without the Block Reward", the paper makes the assumption that blocks can include all transactions
<Taek>
They also go on to show that the standard deviation of the transaction fee part of the subsidy is about half of its mean
<Taek>
But I think pretty much all of their conclusions would fall apart if a deep transaction pool was standard
<kanzure>
i didn't check to see whether scenarios or fixes like "don't take too many fees such that other miners will try to grind your picks away from you instead of extending the chain"
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<Taek>
that's a good point, I'm not sure how the game theory works out but as a miner it may be in your best interest to *not* greedily grab all the fees
<bsm1175321>
I'm still deeply uncomfortable with the "deep transaction pool" idea. It seems to mean the system is not working for many participants.
<kanzure>
Taek: right-- there will probably have to be consesus-enforced fee mechanisms where yo ucould voluntarily break up a fee over many blocks or something
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<Taek>
kanzure: any consensus enforced fee mechanisms can be optionally routed around by dropping, say, anyone-can-spend outputs, or by using other means of paying out-of-band
<YiumPotato>
what's the problem if miners pick the most bitcoin fee/kb? I don't see why youd need a mechanism like that
<kanzure>
YiumPotato: because why mine a new block when you could take the high fee transaction by retrying the previous block? it's more valuable...
<Taek>
any consensus-enforced fee mechanism has to be better for all participants than escaping it
<Taek>
which, I think would be difficult to achieve, because usually fee-distribution reduces the expected fee-value of high-fee transactions
<YiumPotato>
oh, I see. A fee pool is a good idea but a little bit unrealistic
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<Taek>
kanzure: looks like the paper does cover that, see 5.3 on page 7 - "Phase Three: Aggressive Undercutting"
<Taek>
miners being playing games to minimize the chance that someone will fork them
<Taek>
*begin
<kanzure>
ah good
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<bsm117532>
Why not get rid of tx fees going to miners, in favor of time averaged coin destruction?
<bsm117532>
It probably doesn't solve the problem, but makes attacks longer-ranged...
<Taek>
what are the incentives for the miners to adopt that?
<bsm117532>
The time averaged coin destruction would be balanced by coin creation. So they're still getting tx fees, in an averaged manner
<Taek>
The paper shows in section 5.4 that there's an equilibrium where miners can include only a few transactions and remove their risk of being undercut
<Taek>
but this equilibrium results in a growing transaction backlog
<bsm117532>
I don't see how to keep a "deep mempool" stable...at night when fewer txs get submitted, the pool would get exhausted
<Taek>
I'm not 100% sure that I understand the paper correctly
<Taek>
but it actually seems like you don't need any extra rules to acheive that deep mempool
<Taek>
basically, if you exhaust too much of the mempool, the rest of the network will fork you because it's more profitable for them to do so
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<Taek>
so, there's this sort of implicit incentive not to take too much
<bsm117532>
Well, its depth fluctuates
<Taek>
no, apparently the depth is monotonically increasing
<bsm117532>
Ugh
<Taek>
well, from block-to-block
<Taek>
if it's not increasing, people will fork you
<Taek>
and so it's better for you financially just to mine fewer transactions
<bsm117532>
Having transactions permanently in limbo is not a good thing I think...
<Taek>
neither is heat death I think
<bsm117532>
There's new game theory about how TX submitters manage their limbo transactions...
<bsm117532>
Maybe I submit a bunch of low fee txs so another of my txs goes through
<bsm117532>
Heat death?
<Taek>
I merely meant to suggest that sometimes you have problems you don't know how to solve
<bsm117532>
I don't believe in such things ;-)
<bsm117532>
Gotta at least try
<bsm117532>
Gotta run...i need to read this paper carefully still.
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<adlai>
bsm1175321: [deep mempool] ... means the system is not working for many participants. << define 'working'
<adlai>
note that nowhere in the whitepaper does satoshi say your transaction should confirm within X blocks. imo, sending a tx which you fully expect to feebump multiple times is, and should be, SOP for low-priority data (note that i say data, not commerce)
<kanzure>
something something deep mempool backlog turnover rate
<adlai>
please provide either a context link, or macroexpand your somethingsomething :)
* adlai
has no idea what 'backlog turnover rate' meavns
<adlai>
re: 'deep mempool', i think it's perfectly fine for bitcoin to support T+1 settlement on both the hour and day scales. so if you want clearing within an hour, you pay a fee that should confirm in the next block, and once every two weeks you get a T+2 settlement; not the end of the world. if you want daily settlement, you pay a muuuuuch lower fee, and bump it to an hourly fee the next day if it didn't
<adlai>
confirm during the 'night'
<adlai>
;;tblb 7200
<gribble>
The expected time between blocks taking 2 hours and 0 seconds to generate is 8 years, 16 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 6 minutes, and 22 seconds
<adlai>
;;tblb 4800
<gribble>
The expected time between blocks taking 1 hour, 20 minutes, and 0 seconds to generate is 5 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 36 minutes, and 40 seconds
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<brg444>
bsm1175321: Bitcoin doesn't sleep. "At night" doesn't mean much for a global, borderless consensus mechanism ;)
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<adlai>
brg444: bitcoin still has nonuniform activity relative to the angle at which sunlight strikes its planet
<adlai>
(... and anybody who thinks bitcoin is an interplanetary phenomenon needs to rethink their assumptions)
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<bsm1175321>
Imagine that you tried to pay your rent by sending a bank transfer, and your bank says "oh, we don't know if it will arrive, it depends on what other people are doing".
<kanzure>
why would your bank fail to operate a payment channel?
<bsm1175321>
"deep mempool" means there is always some transaction that will never be confirmed, and that situation will be gamed.
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: A "deep mempool" has transactions which will never be confirmed.
<adlai>
"transaction" /= blockchain message
<bsm1175321>
adlai: not sure what you mean?
<adlai>
deep mempools are full of messages that will never confirm, but that's fine. if a message is worth confirming, the sender will notice, and bump the fee. too bad satoshi didn't make this clear when specifying the write protocol :)
<adlai>
but a "transaction" (of which only half is payment, the other half being... something else) doesn't have to correspond 1-to-1 with blockchain messages.
<bsm1175321>
A deep mempool means either: (1) There is a new game regarding the set of transactions which will never confirm, the game theory of which has not been explored, or (2) there are a set of participants expecting transactions to settle who are not getting what they want.
<adlai>
please clarify the difference between "transaction" and "payment". i think you're using the word "transaction" to mean what i'd call a "payment".
<bsm1175321>
Probabilistic settlement is a ridiculous problem to introduce when we have nearly instant communication over the intertubes.
<bsm1175321>
adlai: I'm using them synonymously ;-)
<bsm1175321>
Why are you differentiating them?
<adlai>
because "pay your rent" is a payment, but it doesn't have to be a bitcoin-as-in-on-the-bitcoin-blockchain transaction
<adlai>
if few enough people are using a global messaging channel that paying your rent by broadcasting on a finite planetary resource is within your pay grade, go right ahead. but that's a priviledge, not a right.
<bsm1175321>
I don't see the difference...
<bsm1175321>
We're trying to invent internet money here, no? Not a rich-people-only system... ;-)
<adlai>
i'll rephrase my response to your rent-payment comment as: "your bank should either operate a payment channel, or have sufficiently friendly relations with a miner"
<bsm1175321>
Point is, the restriction you're referring to is artificial
<bsm1175321>
So you're advocating for everything-on-lightning...that's one way to go.
<adlai>
it's not artificial. if everybody on earth tried to send emails via radio waves, they'd run into these "artificial" restrictions as well
<bsm1175321>
It reintroduces banking to a system intended to destroy it though...
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<adlai>
not everything, no.
<bsm1175321>
Block size limits are artificial. We're not limited by available bandwidth here.
<adlai>
physics limits channel bandwidth for any channel, this is true outside of bitcoin as well
<bsm1175321>
Physics does not limit the number of fiber lines I can deploy across the pacific. Physics limits *latency* not bandwidth. (Hence my work on braids...)
<adlai>
physics limits that, but the math doesn't fit in the margins of my irc buffer :)
<bsm1175321>
Well not in any practical way...finance limits the number of fiber channels... ;-)
<bsm1175321>
More money = more bandwidth, the same is not true for latency.
<adlai>
my point is that even if you bump capacity as high as physically possible, it's still finite; and assuming that demand will expand to fill capacity (which has happened with every communications channel mankind has constructed, to my knowledge), merely increasing capacity won't indefinitely satisfy demand.
<bsm1175321>
We are many, many orders of magnitude away from those limits and the restrictions are related to protocol and game theory. They are not phsical.
<bsm1175321>
Coming back to the "deep mempool" idea...it's in the interest of miners to submit a bunch of low-fee transactions, to push up the fees...
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* adlai
wonders to what degree that remains true when you have a truly-deep mempool; ie, one where, if a miner submits low-fee transactions with higher fees than background low-priority tx noise, larger miners will orphan their blocks to steal the formerly-'free' transactions
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