sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<waxwing> andytoshi: so for Definition 6 in the MW draft, in the verify step, i'm taking "computes P as the sum of all p" as meaning "s" rather than p, i just want to check: the verifier only receives the sum, P, right, not computes the sum from the list of elements (that would reveal the private key wouldn't it?)
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<waxwing> oh, the next page discusses this. it seems i haven't understood it yet.
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<waxwing> hmm no it's not about the sum, that doesn't make any difference, it seems i didn't get the meaning of the previous line "Next it sets s=" (there is a typo on that line, not sure if that might be throwing me)
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<waxwing> i guess "s" there should be the set of curve points not scalars
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<waxwing> ok i think i get how it works, if instead of "s={sk*H_2(x_i)}0..n" it read maybe "s={pk*H_2(x_i)}0..n". i can see how you get the sinking and summability there.
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<andytoshi> waxwing: no, the verifier receives the entire signature and does the summing itself
<andytoshi> there are no secret keys anywhere in that..
<andytoshi> what is the typo on the previous line?
<andytoshi> oh, well, i should change "sets" to "outputs"
<andytoshi> and i guess i could change the p's in `Verify` to s's, although they are all consistent
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<waxwing> andytoshi: it says "s = {sk * H_2(x_i}0..n" (no closing parenthesis), trivial typo, but i just didn't get that line; sk is the secret key in defn 6, no?
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<waxwing> and i was saying if it was pk (so curve points) it would make sense
<waxwing> ah, H2 is a hash "with values in G2", so that's what i missed. it outputs curve points.
<waxwing> ok then all clear i think, apart from the trivial close parens
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<cjd> andytoshi: is it possible that we might implement a varient of MW in bitcoin by adding an input sig type which instead of signing the tx, signs a MW empty-string sig which needs to be included in that block ?
<cjd> additionally if we don't mask the amounts (I know this erodes the privacy significantly) then it's at as post quantum as bitcoin at least after the block is completed
<cjd> s/at//
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<andytoshi> waxwing: ah awesome thanks
<andytoshi> cjd: pretty sure yes, but you lose a lot of scaling benefit, i haven't thought through all the details
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<cjd> yeah the scaling is interesting but my intuition is that people are going to have more difficulty accepting a coin where you can't point to your money in the chain and say "that's mine"
<cjd> also being able to count up the money in a block in the inputs and outputs w/ pencil and paper will give people a lot more warm-and-fuzzies
<bsm1175321> cjd: People do not publicly display their bank account balances to others, and for good reason.
<bsm1175321> I agree with you on trusting the magic moon math though...
<cjd> fungibility is a challenge to bitcoin right now, maybe lightning will fix that and maybe lightning is still 5 years out
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<cjd> o/t q: does anyone know of a phone with discrete baseband which you can turn off, reset, etc from the application processor ?
<cjd> and which does not have ability to read all of your ram
<andytoshi> cjd: i'm confused, you can absolutely point to your money in a mimblewimble chain
<andytoshi> and you can add everything to 0 by hand if you're interested in doing a bunch of EC cals
<andytoshi> calcs*
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<cjd> sort of, but CT means you can't know how much it it (without trusting math)
<cjd> All I'm suggesting is that telling NORPs to put their money in a big elliptic curve ring and it will be safe might be difficult, but if you can prove me wrong then excellent
<andytoshi> you have to "trust math" with non-CT, numbers in the blockchain are not decimal-encoded strings
<andytoshi> and you absolutely have to trust math to believe that a utxo entry is not spent, and cannot be spent except by its owner
<cjd> I think what makes people feel good is that they can enter a key which they know is theirs into any block explorer and it will confirm for them that X btc is there
<nsh-> that can be preserved somewhat
<cjd> but I confess that I'm just hypothesizing here, what makes people adopt or not adopt a technology is a difficult problem
<andytoshi> *shrug* bitcoin has never had "is usable with paypal's trust model" as a goal
<andytoshi> and honestly i'd be quite concerned if i could go to random websites and they would show me my bank balance
<nsh-> i think rather people like to have their solvency confirmed by third parties for psychological reasons
<waxwing> cjd: people go to considerable lengths to regain some of the privacy lost in the bitcoin model. although i do agree in a very general sense, that the more trivially transparent a system is, the better for *some* purposes - just not the ordinary spending personal money sense.
<andytoshi> nsh-: sure. they can take a utxo entry and verify for themselves that it has the right amount of money on it, and they can ask third porties to verify that the utxo exists
* nsh- nods
<cjd> This is a bit of a bar-conversation, in the end either people want this or they don't and the only way to really be sure is to test it out, but I think there is something to be learned from the way Monero uses a view-key to allow auditing
<waxwing> cjd: CT has that kind of auditing.
<andytoshi> waxwing: with MW it's a bit more complicated. but it can absolutely be done
<nsh-> MW loses auditability by definition unless there is state kept externally
<waxwing> right, i forgot actually, MW is different, sorry
<andytoshi> if you have a MW commitment C, you can add an offset P (and sign with P to show you're not offsetting the value), and reveal the opening of C+P
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<andytoshi> nsh-: well presumably an auditor will ask for whatever state s/he needs
* nsh- nods
<nsh-> so it's a wallet dev + UX concern i guess
<andytoshi> yeah. and MW has enough of those already :)
<nsh-> lol
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<waxwing> andytoshi: so if i understood it right, you need the sinking signature element only for the compactification, but you consider it impractical without, due to the size of rangeproofs?
<andytoshi> waxwing: without the sinking signatures you have to validate a sig for every tx in the history
<andytoshi> the rangeproofs are unrelated
<andytoshi> the sinking signatures let me compact 15Gb+ of signatures into less than a meg .. otherwise i wouldn't want them, they require pairings and they tie transactions to blockheights so that they'll be invalidated by reorgs
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<waxwing> yeah the "require pairings" part i understood would be a big deal; on the "validate a sig for every tx in the history", here are you talking about the 1 (canonical) tx per block?
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