sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<CharlieHustle>
hi
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<Eliel_>
Has anyone thought about a soft-fork with a "market share" based deactivation if it doesn't get enough use during a predefined test period?
<Eliel_>
I suspect having soft-forks modeled like that might make it easier to get them activated. Afterwards it's the market's problem whether it stays active or deactivates.
<Eliel_>
or perhaps even base the system on featuresets that are designed to turn off and revert to "anything goes" ruleset if their usage falls below a set threshold for long enough.
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<Eliel_>
kind of a modular approach to supporting different features on a blockchain.
<Eliel_>
The rhetoric of the type "the developers are forcing things on us" would lose it's punch when there's a market based decision mechanism involved.
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<Eliel_>
Ideally, the activation/deactivation should be based on the total fees paid by transactions using the features rather than total use... But that sounds hairy to get the incentive structures working right.
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<Eliel_>
P2SH usage is a good example point to use to determine sensible thresholds.
<Eliel_>
as well as timescales
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<bsm1175321>
Usage of the CSV transaction types would be useful too, though they're less than a year old, so not much statistics.
<bsm1175321>
Also I think few "regular users" would use them anyway.
<Eliel_>
I don't that'd be a problem in practice for any feature that actually manages to get activated.
<belcher>
p2sh is depressed by the fact that p2pkh works perfectly fine for most uses
<bsm1175321>
I'd say the threshold for dectivation should be extremely low, for instance < 1% usage after 5 years.
<belcher>
CSV can only really be used for escrow that times out and payment channels
<Eliel_>
also, p2sh might see more use if it was in danger of deactivating due to underuse.
<bsm1175321>
And lots of soft forks may be very valuable, but there would be no reason to have a huge number of transactions using the new feature (like CSV)
<belcher>
doesnt 'deactivation' require a hard fork, if people can pull off a hard fork successfully they can steal p2pkh utxos too
<bsm1175321>
Yes, deactivation is a hard fork.
<Eliel_>
belcher: it's not a hard fork if it's already part of the consensus rules.
<bsm1175321>
It's a hard fork because previously valid transactions become invalid.
<belcher>
'deactivation' is part of the rules?
<Eliel_>
bsm1175321: not invalid, the special rules just stop being enforced.
<Eliel_>
ie, they become anyone can pay
<bsm1175321>
It's a hard fork for anyone who isn't running a node with the deactivation logic...
<Eliel_>
bsm1175321: that's the point, you'd design it so everyone is running such a node
<belcher>
what are you talking about.. this is no different from a hard fork
<belcher>
if you can make everyone run software that does something fancy then you can pull off a hard fork
<Eliel_>
belcher: this is soft-fork category.
<belcher>
right but since p2sh and CSV have been activated now, undoing them requires a hard fork
<Eliel_>
belcher: yes, because they didn't come with deactivation logic built in.
<Eliel_>
if it's there from the start, it's no fork at all
<belcher>
i doubt any soft fork will come with deactivation logic built in, it seems to defeat the point
<Eliel_>
belcher: I think of it as garbage collection routine.
<Eliel_>
the feature goes in, does it's thing, is no longer needed and gets garbage collected.
<Eliel_>
of course, the timescales could be decades or centuries.
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<Eliel_>
belcher: anyway, the point is that the deactivation logic leaves the door open to remove the feature someday without a hard fork when it really is no longer needed. For example, when a new version has been released. It allows the network to garbage collect legacy cruft eventually.
<belcher>
its an interesting idea but i cant think of a situation when it would be used; p2sh, csv and segwit would never be deactivated
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<Eliel_>
belcher: true, but I expect we'll start to see more and more of improvements that really might be deactivated sometime.
<Eliel_>
belcher: plus, it might help make it more palatable politically. It'd be less of "the core developers are imposing this thing on us" since there's an obvious market mechanism involved in keeping the thing going.
<belcher>
it would also mean the feature probably never gets used if it could disappear one day
<Eliel_>
only if people think it's a realistic risk and/or the deactivation process is badly designed.
<Eliel_>
for example, the deactivation process could be designed to do something intelligent to all the remaining outputs about to become "anyone can spend" through the deactivation.
<Eliel_>
Although, if there's sufficient lead time, I expect users would collect their coins before that.
<belcher>
is the only benefit that political one? "core devs not imposing" which is untrue because core devs cant impose anything
<Eliel_>
long term garbage collection is the real benefit.
<belcher>
garbage collection is about reusing memory, soft forks dont use a resource like memory
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<Eliel_>
consensus code complexity doesn't count as using memory?
<belcher>
your idea wouldnt reduce complexity, since all the soft fork activation and deactivation code still has to be around forever
<belcher>
not to mention complexity isnt really a measurable thing like RAM
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<Eliel_>
not actually, if it's designed as soft-fork to begin with, you can just throw it out after deactivation.
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<Eliel_>
this is perhaps easiest to see if you imagine the situation from the perspective of someone who never upgraded to a node that supported the deactivated soft-fork in the first place. He won't notice any problems. Only that a weird transaction type stops being used.
<moli>
what softfork has been deactivated or going to be deactivated?