sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<petertodd>
kanzure: see, that's the thing: causing a anti-dos ban doesn't work in an environment where the blockchain is too large for every node to have the full thing
<petertodd>
kanzure: e.g. validity challenges have a scaling problem
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<kanzure>
petertodd: right.... plus you need consensus on top of anti-dos banning, to begin with... but perhaps it would be more helpful to name that consensus layer as settling something other than transactions.
<yoleaux>
Eli Ben-Sasson: Towards transparent and scalable computational integrity - Silicon Valley Ethereum Meetup (Mountain View, CA) | Meetup
<kanzure>
there was a recent revision to "Computational integrity with a public random string from quasi-linear PCPs" http://eprint.iacr.org/2016/646
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<kanzure>
:( "The paper describing STARK is not quite ready"
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<_Iriez>
Does anyone know of the top of their head if there is a central place that references research of impact on node count from increasing block size?
<_Iriez>
I've been searching for a hour now, not coming up with the information I know I previosly read.
<_Iriez>
Its been a solid 1.5 years since it came out I believe.
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<_Iriez>
actually, the bitfury whitepaper does a very good job! this satisfies my requirements.
<_Iriez>
its claiming that a 2MB blocksize would immediately decrease node count by 40% and would require 8GB of ram for nodes
<_Iriez>
Is this accurate?
<sipa>
that seems very unlikely... the effects are likely much more spread out over time
<sipa>
also, i don't think node count matters that much on itself
<sipa>
in that for those running full nodes, the number of nodes is irrelevant (their own node fully validates, they don't need any others to do the same)
<sipa>
it's a proxy indicator for the health of the ecosystem, of course
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<Eliel_>
_Iriez: do be careful about the vocabulary there. Make sure whether it's talking about actual 2MB blocksize or the blocksize limit.
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<_Iriez>
It appears its blocksize, not blocksize limit? that was my assumption and I dont see any terminology to counter that belief?
<_Iriez>
sipa: thank you, I thought that was unlikely as well.
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<_Iriez>
sipa: also, is the 8GB of RAM a incorrect assessment for a effective 2mb (full) blocksize? Do you have any numbers on projected required physical ram for 2mb, 4mb, etc?
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<sipa>
_Iriez: there is no 'required' physical ram
<sipa>
_Iriez: it's all a balance between performance and cost
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<sipa>
you can run a full node today with maybe half a gigabyte, and we can certainly tweek the software for less
<sipa>
(i'm not disagreeing with the sentiment by the way - i'm *very* afraid of the pressure on resource costs including RAM to performantly run full node... but strong claims like this with exact numbers are totally bogus)
<sipa>
especially memory usage scales with the UTXO set size mostly... and a larger block size will likely cause faster UTXO growth... but it's all indirect
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<gmaxwell>
the problem is that 'required for performance to not fall off a cliff' in practice means required, but pedantically it's not 'required'.. If people go around saying required it's asking for someone to pull out the pandantic argument and say you were lying.
<gmaxwell>
part of the design of segwit is controlling utxo growh: the worst case utxo growth is no larger with segwit, and the average growth is plausably controlled by the weight construction (growing the UTXO set will cost more on average relative to ordinary transactions assuming rational miners)
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<_Iriez>
Thank you both for the responses, that helps clarify it. I should have worded my question better. More along the lines of, "What is the average memory impact on clients running 13.2 (or 13.99) theoretically under similar conditions as now but with a max block size of 4mb, 8mb, etc)
<_Iriez>
for example, my node currently averages around 1.5gb memory usage on 13.2
<_Iriez>
is it safe to assume a doubling of memory usage for a doubling of blocksize under the same conditions?
<gmaxwell>
No.
<sipa>
the memory usage needed for 'optimal performance' will likely double in some amount of time regardless
<sipa>
the amount of time that this takes is likely influenced by the block size
<gmaxwell>
it may do that much faster with a larger blocksize. But the size itself may only increase memory usage by a moderate amount.
<_Iriez>
I dont mean the limit, I mean (mostly) full, such as now.
<_Iriez>
sipa: regardless as in without a BS increase? This makes sense as the UTXO will be higher the further we go without SW activated, if im assuming correctly.
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<sipa>
_Iriez: even with SW activated
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<_Iriez>
But much more without it activated, correct? Wont that substantially increase utxo due to mempool increasing with "backlog" ?
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<sipa>
what does the mempool have to do with this?
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