#bitcoin-wizards on 2018-02-01 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

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01:58 <kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/blockchain-protocol-analysis-security-engineering/2018/schnorr-signatures-for-bitcoin-challenges-opportunities/

01:59 <kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/blockchain-protocol-analysis-security-engineering/2018/bulletproofs/

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02:08 <contrapumpkin> <3

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05:22 <RubenSomsen> sipa: how do key tree signatures compares to threshold signatures? is one objectively better, or are there use cases for both (assuming pure multisig with no further scripting)?

05:30 <sipa> RubenSomsen: key treed are accountable

05:30 <sipa> *trees

05:30 <sipa> (the signers can see which subset signed)

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05:32 <RubenSomsen> Ah yeah, good point. Are there performance differences? I remember you pointed out that at some tresholds calculating the tree can take a long time.

05:39 <sipa> a threshold signature just looks like a single signature on chain

05:39 <sipa> so obviouslyz yes

05:42 <aj> is there a good reference for how threshold signatures via schnorr might work?

05:43 <RubenSomsen> Yes of course on-chain it is more efficient, I meant at contract creation time. Like if you do 500-1000 multisig, calculating an entire merkle tree will take a long time.

05:44 <RubenSomsen> I guess it is similar?

05:44 <RubenSomsen> Hopefully I am wording my question clearly enough

05:50 <RubenSomsen> I guess it is not really a practical concern if it happens off-chain

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09:18 <andytoshi> threshold signatures involve quadratic communication at setup, each signer sends some small amount of data to each other signer. at signing time it's linear

09:19 <andytoshi> in that each signer just broadcasts a small amount of stuff

09:19 <andytoshi> under no circumstances is there the combinatorial explosion that you see with keytrees

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11:14 <maaku> andytoshi: I don't think that's correct? the amount of data sent to/from each peer during setup depends on the number of signing sets they are involved with, which is combinatorial

11:14 <maaku> unless you are talking about a different scheme than I am thinking of

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11:16 <andytoshi> yeah i'm thinking specifically about single thresholds

11:16 <andytoshi> i suppose you could have a combinatorial number of sets that isn't a threshold

11:17 <andytoshi> kanzure: should i correct some of benedikt's numbers ? it would become a false transcript but OTOH his numbers for ECDSA verify and for bulletproof batch verification are incorrect

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12:08 <RubenSomsen> andytoshi: Thanks for explaining, that is what I was wondering about. That sounds pretty good then.

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13:59 <kanzure> andytoshi: yes edit away, and if you feel like you're violating the sanctity of the transcript then add a disclaimer at the top or bottom

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14:09 <andytoshi> yeah, waxwing suggested i just add a footnote

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15:12 <kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/bitcoin-tech-dev-talks-schnorr-signatures.2018-02-01.pdf

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17:43 <andytoshi> kanzure: this is an awesome compilation, thanks

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17:50 <kanzure> yep sure.

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18:37 <contrapumpkin> kanzure: btw, in https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/gmaxwell-bitcoin-selection-cryptography/ it's possible to link into youtube at a particular time

18:39 <contrapumpkin> oh I see you did that

18:39 <contrapumpkin> sorry, was confused by the title of the page

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20:12 <kanzure> "Atomic cross-chain swaps" https://arxiv.org/abs/1801.09515

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