<notelliottcable>
hi alexgordon / notmicahjohnston_
<micahjohnston_>
hi notelliottcable
<micahjohnston_>
r u 4 real
<alexgordon>
hi alexgordon
<notelliottcable>
es
<notelliottcable>
how's life
<notelliottcable>
I was looking at potion the other day
<notelliottcable>
I *like* something _why did
<notelliottcable>
this is revolutionary
* Aria
laughs.
<notelliottcable>
the last time I saw / looked at it, was before I myself designed languages; so I dismissed it as a silly _why-ism
<alexgordon>
hi Aria
<micahjohnston_>
notelliottcable: yeah!
<micahjohnston_>
I love potion
<notelliottcable>
but it appears that he actually grew the fuck up and made something robustly interesting, not just silly and entertaining ,for once.
<Aria>
Heya
<micahjohnston_>
like it's rough and unfinished but fun
<notelliottcable>
have you seen jcoglan's fargo?
<micahjohnston_>
is it a scheme?
<notelliottcable>
it's *exactly* what I'd like to see out of a lisp-y language
<micahjohnston_>
yeah I've seen it
<micahjohnston_>
I
<micahjohnston_>
remember showing you it
<micahjohnston_>
and you dismissed it
<micahjohnston_>
:p
<notelliottcable>
there's also, uhhhh,
<notelliottcable>
yeah I hate lisps
<notelliottcable>
it's just the least-hate-able-lisp
<notelliottcable>
and also, jcoglan <3
<micahjohnston_>
ye
<notelliottcable>
I want him to have my babies and all sooooooo now I like it
<notelliottcable>
ummmmm
<notelliottcable>
can't find it
<notelliottcable>
the other one I'm thinking about
<notelliottcable>
or was that potion? face.
<notelliottcable>
yeah it was a potion-thing, with a secondary, embedded data-language. I like it.
<micahjohnston_>
yeah that's potion
<micahjohnston_>
kinda lua-ey
<notelliottcable>
not really a lua-fan
<notelliottcable>
I think a language should be designed *so* it can be embedded (project-embedded, not device-embedded, to be clear … P-emb and D-emb)
<notelliottcable>
but I don't think a language should be designed *for* embedding.
<notelliottcable>
I feel like that's a fairly stinky non-goal, if you know what I mean.
<micahjohnston_>
yeah I'm not really a lua-fan either
<micahjohnston_>
it's too batteries-unincluded, to the point that it's a dystopian nightmare version of your competing-OOP-systems ideal for paws
* notelliottcable
laughs
<notelliottcable>
something like that, yes
<notelliottcable>
I want to do the same thing, but instead of forcing a competing-ecology by providing *nothing*, I want to force it by providing a set of already-well-balanced competing systems.
<notelliottcable>
you know, bootstrap the political interaction.
<micahjohnston_>
mm
<notelliottcable>
doesn't matter; the Paws is dead, long live the Paws, etcetcetc
<micahjohnston_>
yeah that would be the best way to do that
<micahjohnston_>
ya
<notelliottcable>
you: stop making music and do things that interest ME
<notelliottcable>
I demand it
<micahjohnston_>
how did you know i'm making music
<micahjohnston_>
:o
<whitequark>
notelliottcable: why dead?
<notelliottcable>
if it weren't for you, jcoglan, and cloudhead, I'd have no reason to pay attention to computers
<micahjohnston_>
atm I'm making music for a music theory class
<micahjohnston_>
behind on this project
<notelliottcable>
everybody else does things either A) badly, B) boringly, or C) is already famous and thus I don't care
<micahjohnston_>
so I have to :P
<micahjohnston_>
but then behind that on my priorities list is a game I'm making with friends
<micahjohnston_>
in C++
<micahjohnston_>
and it's given me lots of realizations that will feed into tempus
<micahjohnston_>
so I am happy with the temporal/computational model of tempus, but I want to redesign the whole organization/data types system
<micahjohnston_>
there's a particular kind of thing that is perfect for UIs and games, that is occasionally approached by OO
<micahjohnston_>
that I want to bottle up
<notelliottcable>
describe it
<notelliottcable>
data-org bothers me
<notelliottcable>
that's something I never satisfactorily solved in Paws
<micahjohnston_>
ok so like
<notelliottcable>
GC, data-storage, I kinda wanted to get rid of *all* of it somehow
<micahjohnston_>
dangit brb
<notelliottcable>
I had vague notions for making non-copying SAX-parser-like “the input *is* the data-storage” stuff into an actual concept for a language
<notelliottcable>
not for Paws, but it's something I considered taking somewhere for a while
<notelliottcable>
a processing-*only*, non-storing data-system/object-system
<notelliottcable>
typical Elliott approach. Solve the problem by getting rid of it.
* whitequark
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<whitequark>
I guess this is a channel not for me.
<notelliottcable>
whitequark: wait, you *just* intentionally smashed your phone?
* notelliottcable
laughs
<micahjohnston_>
elliottcable: aw
<micahjohnston_>
notelliottcable: aw
<notelliottcable>
and you thought you didn't belong in this channel!
<notelliottcable>
posh and nonesense.
<whitequark>
notelliottcable: a week ago actually
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micahjohnston__ is now known as incomprehensibly
<incomprehensibly>
oh hi
<notelliottcable>
irccloud <3
<notelliottcable>
oh my god now there's three of them
<notelliottcable>
that's more than there are of me!
micahjohnston has quit [Disconnected by services]
<notelliottcable>
but not as many as there are of cloud heads.
incomprehensibly is now known as micahjohnston
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<notelliottcable>
oooo
<notelliottcable>
I like this.
<micahjohnston>
tada
<micahjohnston>
kicked the ssh-irssi micahjohnston
<micahjohnston>
ghosted
<micahjohnston>
:P
<micahjohnston>
elliottcable: so ideas for tempus organization
<micahjohnston>
so OO inheritance as both code reuse and as identity/polymorphism stuff is like
<micahjohnston>
an approach to a good solution
<micahjohnston>
but it sucks
<notelliottcable>
awwww
<notelliottcable>
should I turn off irssi?
<micahjohnston>
if you want to :p
<notelliottcable>
okay, lemme do that before we start talking
<micahjohnston>
i just haven't bothered to get ssh working since my laptop died
<notelliottcable>
brb finding my SSH identity
<notelliottcable>
I have a new life goal
<notelliottcable>
start a company, and become able to hire the most skilled people that I know.
<notelliottcable>
If I could start a mildly-profitable endeavor, something that *requires* intellectual backing; and then afford to hire Micah, Magnus, James, Alex, away from whoever's got them now … I'd be a happy happy boy.
<micahjohnston>
:P
* micahjohnston
is tired from running a 5K today
<whitequark>
LOL just got this
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
warning: The echo canceller started acting funny and got slapped (reset). It swears it will behave now.
<micahjohnston>
all my concrete thoughts have flown out of my head
<micahjohnston>
aspect-oriented programming
<whitequark>
notelliottcable: rename the channel to #notconsole
<micahjohnston>
a really really cool idea that has only seen ugly-as-balls implementations
<notelliottcable>
whitequark: for reference, I don't know shit about anything official. Everything I know is home-grown. Don't use acronyms if you can avoid it, except extremely obvious ones.
<notelliottcable>
aspects, i.e. aspects of data?
<notelliottcable>
was that similar to what we were talking about with “lenses” on data?
<notelliottcable>
late last fall, I believe
<whitequark>
notelliottcable: not sure... aspects of behavior
<telemachus>
elliottcable: ping
<notelliottcable>
oh, you're already in here
* telemachus
laughs
<telemachus>
Just got here, I think.
<notelliottcable>
oh, no, you just joined, but I'm an idiot and missed it
* telemachus
laughs again
<telemachus>
Shit happens
<micahjohnston>
notelliottcable: lenses are entirely different :p
<notelliottcable>
yes, we have a bot, his name is purr, and he's sentient.
* telemachus
nods
<purr>
hi.
* notelliottcable
pats purr
* purr
rrrrrr
<telemachus>
Cool. Is his source online somewhere? I've written a bot, but he's not so sentient. I'll steal stuff.
<micahjohnston>
her name is purr and she's sentient
<purr>
micahjohnston: ... *his* name, and *he*'s sentient
* telemachus
laughs
<elliottcable>
... lol
<purr>
lol
<elliottcable>
anyway,
<telemachus>
Alright, off to Thai. Laters.
<elliottcable>
nah, his source is a hack-job of endless shims and incomprehensible inside jokes
<whitequark>
that was sudden
<micahjohnston>
elliottcable: basically aspect-oriented is about separation of concerns
<micahjohnston>
so with OO then code is grouped by class
<micahjohnston>
so often code that deals with so-called “cross-cutting concerns” is grouped together
<micahjohnston>
so code about one specific feature is splattered throughout the codebase
<micahjohnston>
so CSS is a good example of aop in use
<micahjohnston>
because you can say like
<elliottcable>
I gotcha
<micahjohnston>
every h1 or p or div with this class is like this
<micahjohnston>
and instead of including it with the divs themselves
<micahjohnston>
the feature itself is grouped
* whitequark
. o O ( I can make AOP really, really fast in Foundry! )
<elliottcable>
yeah, you put it with the other stuff related to that stuff
<micahjohnston>
which kind of necessarily means action-at-a-distance
<micahjohnston>
and is usually done through monkeypatching
<micahjohnston>
it kind of caught on in some Java circles and people made ugly-as-balls Java versions of it
<micahjohnston>
there's a slightly cool coffeescript one
<micahjohnston>
by raganwaldf
<micahjohnston>
raganwald
<micahjohnston>
but overall I think they're grasping for an ideal that they haven't reached
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<elliottcable>
what's the actual problem it's trying to solve?
<micahjohnston>
when you add a feature in non-aep
<micahjohnston>
aop
<micahjohnston>
you have to add little bits in a bunch of places
<micahjohnston>
so it's messy
<micahjohnston>
aop first of all improves organization in that way
<micahjohnston>
second of all leads to easy plugging/unplugging of features
<elliottcable>
Mmmm, so you'd peg it as primarily an organizational tool.
<micahjohnston>
that cut across class-hierarchy boundaries or what have you
<whitequark>
organizational, indeed.
<elliottcable>
bitches, I have Welch's fruit snacks
<micahjohnston>
"organizational" basically means everything larger than a single expression/statement in this case :P
* elliottcable
laughs
<elliottcable>
yeah, I get the idea
<elliottcable>
okay, screw the AOP acronym and the other implementations for the moment
<elliottcable>
we're basically talking about splitting out, as you put it, code-reuse and identity
<elliottcable>
“this element is <thisclass>, <thatclass>, and <otherclass>”
<elliottcable>
“here's some code that applies to <thisclass> when (predicates based on heirarchy)
<whitequark>
hierarchy?
<whitequark>
I'd say context
<elliottcable>
then, in the web-world, you have much more complex turing-complete predicates in JavaScript that further modify the “hooking-up” of code and identity
<elliottcable>
which seems messy to me.
<elliottcable>
so how about a solution that ties it all in; something similar-ish to CSS, but where you “program” the linkages of identity and code, with more code in the same environment?
<elliottcable>
it's kinduh the logical continuation of metaprogramming, innit?
<micahjohnston>
well it can be done via metaprogramming
<micahjohnston>
it can also be done completely statically
<micahjohnston>
and not really meta-ey
<elliottcable>
AOP< yes
<elliottcable>
what I was suggesting< no
<elliottcable>
I'm talking about taking it to another level, for fun; *fully* programming the relationships between the two, in the same language
<alexgordon>
back
<elliottcable>
hi alexgordon
<micahjohnston>
ugh i need to make progress more quickly on this song
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: STATISTICS QUESTION
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: hm?
<alexgordon>
I have a list of complex numbers (a+bi) and I want to find the best value of a such that b is zero
<alexgordon>
e.g.
<alexgordon>
{ 2-i, 3-i, 3-0.8i, 1.5-0.5i }
<alexgordon>
A is probably between 1.5 and 2
<alexgordon>
some kind of regression I guess?
<alexgordon>
oh the last one should be 1.5+0.5i
<vil>
hi guys
<micahjohnston>
not sure I get it
<micahjohnston>
find the complex number with the smallest b?
<micahjohnston>
but like statistically?
<micahjohnston>
idk statistics lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: find a value for A that most likely has a B of 0
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: or in other words, find the root to a function described statistically by points
<alexgordon>
"samples" in statspeak
<alexgordon>
it seems regression is the right tool, but I don't know anything about regression -_-
<alexgordon>
all I know is linear regression
<micahjohnston>
ok
<micahjohnston>
yeah idk any of that either, sorry
<micahjohnston>
but I mean here's something
<micahjohnston>
treat it like b is the domain and a is the range
<micahjohnston>
and you can try different regressions
<micahjohnston>
there's linear and quadratic and exponential and stuff
<micahjohnston>
not sure what the best approach is if you want this to be entirely mechanical
<alexgordon>
so I guess, least squares all the way!
<micahjohnston>
that sounds like it's effective according to wikipedia
<micahjohnston>
good luck lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
haha
<alexgordon>
"In particular, least squares estimates for regression models are highly non-robust to outliers" this is what I'm worried about, because I'm abusing regression
<alexgordon>
"Heteroscedasticity" this is a great word
<alexgordon>
:P
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