<micahjohnston>
my goal is probably not to make the next C
<micahjohnston>
my goal is to drag the overton rut a bit closer to a better place
<micahjohnston>
and actually with tempus my goal is only to make language for myself to use
<micahjohnston>
"extremism is dangerous" is somewhere between not applying at all and being the opposite of true
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<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: i like that inverse integers idea a lot
<alexgordon>
overton rut haha
<micahjohnston>
:D
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<Determinist>
any of you guys using heroku?
<alexgordon>
too poor
<Determinist>
not that expensive?
<Determinist>
how much are you paying for whatever you're using?
<micahjohnston>
Determinist: I've registered a couple websites but never put anything up lol
<purr>
lol
<Determinist>
aha :)
<Determinist>
well, for most static hobby stuff, one can just use github
<Determinist>
obviously not good enough for anything more serious tho
<micahjohnston>
mhm
<Determinist>
i've been wondering today... have you guys noticed that in the last few years every snot nosed noob on hackernews is suddenly talking about functional programming like it's the best thing since sliced bread?
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<alexgordon>
Determinist: let's see, linode costs me $20/month, digital ocean costs me $5/month
<alexgordon>
I think heroku charges more for a cron job
<micahjohnston>
Determinist: i cannot determine the seriousness or opinions held behind that question
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: serious as hell (although slightly amused at the idea) and my opinion is that functional programming is cool and all, but when writing real software to solve real problems on real hardware, haskell isn't the tool one should use
<Determinist>
alexgordon: what's the catch with this digital ocean thing? looks too good to be true
<alexgordon>
Determinist: so far it's exceeded my expectations!
<micahjohnston>
Determinist: do you think that's a permanent state of affairs, or dependent on the fact that the majority of programming languages, libraries, operating systems, and processor architectures are all designed around imperative programming?
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<alexgordon>
Determinist: the site is nicer than linode. It doesn't have as many features though. Also, the net speed on the $5 VPS is a little slow (though you're paying 1/4 as much so...)
<alexgordon>
I haven't had any problems with it though, so far it's done what it says on the tin
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: i think there's a good reason imperative programming is the main paradigm. I find languages like Scala to be a good approach to FP. the concepts are good and solid, no doubt about that, and for certain things, FP simplifies matters, but unless you're a die hard abstract math fan, imperative programming is a more practical approach (with influences from FP, where appropriate, of course).
<alexgordon>
I dunno, I found scala to be overcomplicated
<Determinist>
alexgordon: k, good to know you can get stuff for $5 these days
<alexgordon>
everything is there
<alexgordon>
but you spend a lot of time trying to figure out which way to do it
<alexgordon>
I'm sure if I knew it better I'd be better at judging all the different possibilities, but for a beginner it seems like it would be VERY easy to write bad code
<Determinist>
alexgordon: i think that's more of a maturity thing. as time passes and (if?) the community around it matures and more 3rd party stuff would appear, things would become more obvious.
<micahjohnston>
yeah scala seems like it just has too much
<Determinist>
aight, first off, which is your favorite language?
<micahjohnston>
i wouldn't say I really have one
<micahjohnston>
I do like haskell a lot but I hate some things about it a lot
<micahjohnston>
most recently, for actual projects, I've used c++ and lua
<Determinist>
if you had a choice for any project you had to write right now, regardless of type (web, desktop, mobile), which would you use?
<micahjohnston>
what do you mean regardless of type? depending on the type I'd choose completely different things
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<Determinist>
micahjohnston: sure, i get it, but assuming you can pick the type of project
<alexgordon>
I use Python if I can, C++ if I can't
<micahjohnston>
I'm really fine with any language to be honest
<Determinist>
no preference?
<micahjohnston>
like, I can work just as well in C++ or Objective-C as in Lua or Ruby or Python
<alexgordon>
for me, library support is king. I want to know if I have a problem, there'll be a mature library there to solve it for me without reinventing the wheel
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: which one have you used most so far?
<Determinist>
alexgordon: that's a pragmatic approach, +1
<micahjohnston>
and for IO-heavy stuff Haskell currently sucks (although I don't think that this is inherent to Haskell, just the fact that the recommended approach, the IO monad, sucks)
<micahjohnston>
hm
<alexgordon>
it's annoying though, because I see nice languages like OCaml, but not much community there, so doubtful I could actually use it for a big project
<micahjohnston>
I used almost exclusively Haskell for a while
<micahjohnston>
the rest of my experience is probably evenly spattered :p
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: anything you've done professionally or just open source/hobby projects?
<micahjohnston>
just open source/hobby
<micahjohnston>
I've made a lot of games
<Determinist>
gotcha
<micahjohnston>
and won some competitions with them
<micahjohnston>
used to use Game Maker a ton
<Determinist>
tbh, i'm not sure if i feel like jumping into something like haskell
<alexgordon>
Determinist: it's good for the mind
<Determinist>
i love the theory behind FP
<Determinist>
sure
<alexgordon>
I write better C++ code now that I've learnt Haskell
<Determinist>
just sounds to me like i'm going to get upset over stuff being slightly awkward compared to a straightforward imperative approach
<micahjohnston>
well see here's how I see that
<Determinist>
alexgordon: i can see how what's possible
<micahjohnston>
if you use Haskell for what it's good at
<micahjohnston>
which is, for the moment, not IO-heavy stuff but more data-ey stuff like compilers
<micahjohnston>
then things won't be *awkward*
<micahjohnston>
you will take a while to get your mind into functional programming mode, and so writing programs will feel like a puzzle at first
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: how often does one get the chance to write compilers?
<alexgordon>
yeah I did some financial stuff in haskell, it was great
<micahjohnston>
but with enough experience it's just as natural, because it's just a different way
<micahjohnston>
Determinist: well, if you're like me and design languages for fun, quite a bit :p
<micahjohnston>
and alexgordon
<Determinist>
fair enough
<alexgordon>
haskell :: Data in -> Data out -> Shake it all about
<Determinist>
ok, so, aside from writing compilers, what would be the haskell niche? e.g. php is all about web (and sucks at that and in general ... in pretty much every way)
<micahjohnston>
hm
<micahjohnston>
php is much more nichey than most languages
<micahjohnston>
:p
<micahjohnston>
there are pretty good web frameworks for haskell (that are really fast)
<micahjohnston>
you can make it work for game dev and other media/UI stuff
<alexgordon>
I would never use haskell for anything "web"
<micahjohnston>
but it's largely the best for things where the interesting stuff is under the hood
<micahjohnston>
compilers, machine learning, that type of thing probably
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: why not?
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: because Python and Ruby have better frameworks
<micahjohnston>
ok
<Determinist>
what do you guys think of JS, or dare I ask?
<micahjohnston>
well I mean there's snap and stuff, with templating and routing and everything
<micahjohnston>
idk
<micahjohnston>
Determinist: well, I can work just fine in it
<micahjohnston>
it feels like it hides bugs
<alexgordon>
Determinist: I DON'T LIKE IT
<Determinist>
it does hide bugs :)
<micahjohnston>
I think there's a bit of beauty poking through in places in the design
<micahjohnston>
but it's kind of a mess
<Determinist>
i kinda like it, even tho it is a mess
<micahjohnston>
although that doesn't really affect the day-to-day all that much
<micahjohnston>
yeah
<Determinist>
once you get to know where the language is going to bite you in the ass, it's kinda fun
<micahjohnston>
yeah :p
<micahjohnston>
honestly I feel like Lua hides bugs almost as much
<Determinist>
sometimes I find myself thinking... i could do this in JS in 2 seconds when writing stuff in other languages
<micahjohnston>
yeah definitely, I reach for JS, Lua, or Ruby when I want to bang something out
<Determinist>
to be perfectly honest, any dynamic language feels like it's hiding bugs all over the place
<alexgordon>
Determinist: but this is where the flawed thinking comes in... people attribute that to it being "dynamic" instead of it just having nice libraries
<Determinist>
alexgordon: not sure i'm following
<alexgordon>
"herp derp if you variable declarations you can code SO MUCH FASTER"
<alexgordon>
I dunno, I just hear it so often; that Ruby, Python, JS are faster to code in because they're "dynamic"
<Determinist>
that can be the case
<alexgordon>
I remain unconvinced
<Determinist>
ok, suppose you need to create a dynamically invokable list of methods that you can call by using a string
<Determinist>
assuming:
<Determinist>
obj['foo'] = function() { ... }
<alexgordon>
don't do that because it's a fucking stupid idea!
<Determinist>
var method = 'foo'; obj[method](...);
<Determinist>
alexgordon: serves the purpose sometimes, if you overlook certain things
<alexgordon>
you will spend 20 seconds writing this and 2 hours debugging it the next day
<Determinist>
i like JS's first class functions and the ability to construct pretty much every nested object you can think of, as needed.
<alexgordon>
that's fine, but you can do that in static languages too
<alexgordon>
"static languages"
<Determinist>
alexgordon: sure, with how many lines of code just for definitions?
<alexgordon>
you can pass ad-hoc tuples around in Haskell the same way you can pass "objects" around in JavaScript, except that Haskell will check all the types
<Determinist>
not talking about haskell specifically, tho
<Determinist>
think C++ and function pointers, for example.
<Determinist>
or you can use templates, if you're into BSDM
<alexgordon>
no, I'm trying to prove that static languages are not inferior to Ruby/Python/JS
<alexgordon>
in terms of speed of coding
<alexgordon>
so Haskell absolutely applies
<micahjohnston>
yeah definitely
<micahjohnston>
C++'s type system sucks and hinders you
<micahjohnston>
but Haskell's type system enables you
<Determinist>
alexgordon: i would say this: static languages are not inferior in any way, quite the opposite, when you account debugging time into the development process and not just the initial coding phase, given similar levels of language familiarity in the hands of an experienced developer
<alexgordon>
Determinist: no but just on a literal basis, you can do the same thing you did, but with type checking
<alexgordon>
whether you'd want to when you have other tools available, is another matter
<Determinist>
alexgordon: not in every language, not with the same level of language familiarity. compare your average C++ and JS developers. consider the pattern we've mentioned earlier. in C++, this would require much better language familiarity than with JS (and that's not necessarily a good thing either)
<alexgordon>
but I'm not talking about C++, I'm talking about non-dynamic languages
<Determinist>
and how would you classify C++ then?
<alexgordon>
it's not dynamic, in the same way as Haskell isn't dynamic, OCaml isn't dynamic, etc
<Determinist>
not dynamic == static?
<alexgordon>
well
<alexgordon>
it's a little difficult to define...
<Determinist>
i agree
<alexgordon>
I think we all know what a dynamic lang is though
<Determinist>
there's a good reason i haven't used Go in the example above
<alexgordon>
Ruby, Python, JS, Lua, PHP
<Determinist>
sure, but i'm more interested in what you would define as not dynamic then
<alexgordon>
maybe we should call them "Laissez-faire" langs LOL
<purr>
lol
<Determinist>
because C++/Java/C and similar are definitely static in my book
<alexgordon>
so?
<alexgordon>
I'm trying to show that being "dynamic" does not enhance a language
<Determinist>
so back to the original question, if you had to compare one of the above static languages to say... JS, your average JS joe would probably be able to produce much more complex patterns than they would given a similar level of familiarity with one of the above static languages
<Determinist>
or at least that's what I think
<Determinist>
again, whether or not that's a good thing is debatable
<alexgordon>
just because something is difficult in Java and C++, doesn't mean it's a property gained by being dynamic!
<alexgordon>
it just means Java and C++ suck
<micahjohnston>
yeah
<micahjohnston>
I would agree there
<Determinist>
fine, Java and C++ suck, show me another static language that doesn't suck in the same way that allows you to do what i've mentioned
<alexgordon>
Haskell!
<alexgordon>
the nature of what you posted is it's ad-hoc
<alexgordon>
you didn't declare the data structure, you just *used* it
<Determinist>
sure
<alexgordon>
the language did all the work
<alexgordon>
in that case it was a hash table, in Haskell you'd use a tuple to the same effect
<Determinist>
would you define haskell as the kind of language people can learn as a first/second language?
<alexgordon>
the *problem* with javascript is that everything is ad-hoc, and any Haskell programmer knows what happens when you never declare anything: your program falls apart!
<Determinist>
alexgordon: i'm not disagreeing
<alexgordon>
Determinist: certainly not, though micahjohnston might disagree. But personally I'm a big fan of people learning C as their first language and Python as their second :P
<alexgordon>
this is another thing I have to rant about, in true old man style
<alexgordon>
nobody has any clue what things cost nowadays
<Determinist>
alexgordon: i'm with ya there. I think people learning Java and Ruby or PHP or god forbid JS as their first/second language are crippled for life, unless they have the mental capacity to switch modes
<Determinist>
C first, Python second, Java third, anything beyond that would seem simple enough to pick up
<alexgordon>
90% of the time when my CPU fan starts going it's some JS in a website that got out of control (the other 10% it's chocolat :P)
<micahjohnston>
I learned GML first, Color Basic second
<micahjohnston>
;p
<micahjohnston>
probably C next
<Determinist>
gives you a good foundation for any other kind of language you're going to bump into, with the exception of FP languages
<micahjohnston>
GML and Color Basic are both utter clusterfucks
<Determinist>
Pascal was my first.
<Determinist>
actually, Basic, but that's so long ago I can't remember shit anyways.
<micahjohnston>
Determinist: well, I'd say it only gives you a good foundation for imperative/OO languages, which happens to include most languages that are used
<alexgordon>
I wrote a great post on HN ages ago about how C is a great language to learn first or second because *everything* is written in it, so once you know it you can learn how anything else works
<micahjohnston>
but in the space of possible languages it's a drop in the ocean
<alexgordon>
s/post/comment
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: yeah that is a good point
<alexgordon>
lol calling my own comments "great"
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
I learnt so much from reading GCD's source code
<alexgordon>
if I didn't know C, I wouldn't have been able to, and I'd be a worse programmer
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: most of the languages used to create commercial software, which is what most people are learning programming for.
<alexgordon>
or even V8's source (though that's C++), linux's source... there's so much *good* C code out there
<Determinist>
how about assembly? is there a place for that in the programmer's knowledge base or would C be sufficient?
<alexgordon>
asm isn't portable (obviously) so there's not *that* much of it now
<alexgordon>
and compilers are good enough that it's rarely necessary to write it
<Determinist>
alexgordon: simply for the reason that there's so much C code out there and most C programmers I know are what I consider to be above average programmers.
<alexgordon>
yeah
<alexgordon>
you have to know your shit to write a widely used project in C
<alexgordon>
less so in JS
<Determinist>
alexgordon: sure, but as a foundation, asm teaches you more about what a computer's like than anything else. do you not see a benefit in that? not talking about the practical use of asm, but rather the knowledge gained from it to be applied in higher level languages
<alexgordon>
sure
<Determinist>
alexgordon: in some ways similar to the benefits you've gained from learning FP (in haskell) when writing in imperative languages
<alexgordon>
it's just that asm is very specific to particular platforms, so there's a limit to how much you can learn that is generally applicable
<alexgordon>
I know almost nothing about ARM for instance
<Determinist>
alexgordon: sure, but then... once you know one asm and the concepts of how that stuff works, applying that knowledge to learn another asm is like learning Java after you know C++, or python-ruby
<Determinist>
learning python after ruby or vice-versa, I meant
<alexgordon>
yeah it's definitely useful, I just wouldn't spend lots of time learning the ins and outs of one particular asm like I would with C
<Determinist>
ok, so, assuming I feel like learning some FP language, haskell would be the one to pick? any other alternatives out there?
<alexgordon>
ehhh nope :P
<alexgordon>
Furrow! :P
<alexgordon>
haskell has a nice community and nice libraries
<Determinist>
how about that ocaml thing?
<alexgordon>
ocaml is more practical than idealistic
<Determinist>
how's that a bad thing?
<alexgordon>
it's tempting
<Determinist>
kinda like showing beer commercials to AA members? :P
<Determinist>
gimme my mutable state, mofo!
<alexgordon>
ocaml also has a smaller community
<Determinist>
*nod*
<Determinist>
fine, i'll bite, gonna go check out haskell
<Determinist>
not sure if i'm gonna like it, but at least I won't feel ignorant when somebody talks about monads
<alexgordon>
micahjohnston: the M word!
<Determinist>
just one last question for you guys: what do you think about lisp? :P
<alexgordon>
nice language, shame about the parentheses
<Determinist>
aight
<alexgordon>
:P nah
<alexgordon>
clojure is the only lisp I would actually consider using, but it's veeeeeery sloooooow
<Determinist>
tbh, never actually wrote any code in any lisp language
<alexgordon>
I tried scheme for a bit, but I wasn't really keen on it
<Determinist>
only time i've seen scheme is in high school and i don't recall being overly impressed. that was quite some time ago, however.
<alexgordon>
it hasn't changed much :P
<Determinist>
i'm sure :)
<alexgordon>
clojure is VERY well designed, but it's exceptional slowness puts me right off, since I might as well use Python
<Determinist>
been a while since I wrote a project in pure python. it's more of a glue language for me these days.
<alexgordon>
yeah
<alexgordon>
I make lots of standalone scripts
<alexgordon>
data processing, etc
<alexgordon>
and I also use it for websites
<Determinist>
it did replace perl for those purposes completely
<Determinist>
seems like everywhere I would potentially use perl in the past, i'm using python in these days.
<alexgordon>
yep, also does a nice job of replacing all but simple shell scripts
<Determinist>
yu[
<Determinist>
yup*
<Determinist>
alexgordon: anything cool and awesome being added to chocolat these days?
<alexgordon>
Determinist: ternjs.org
<alexgordon>
erm
<alexgordon>
not sure where it went
<alexgordon>
ternjs.net
<alexgordon>
mainly working on making it more stable
<gkatsev>
I want tern to be stable already
<alexgordon>
(chocolat that is, not tern)
<alexgordon>
farming stuff out to XPC, so it's isolated
<alexgordon>
gkatsev: any problems with tern? it's working fine here
<gkatsev>
no, I haven't really used what's out there yet.
<Determinist>
isn't tern on kickstart these days?
<gkatsev>
But I need a vim plugin.
<gkatsev>
Determinist: indiegogo
<Determinist>
i can see this thing leading to a whole new definition for broken web
<Determinist>
as if the hoards of noobs writing JS out there don't have enough reasons to produce crap
<gkatsev>
heh
<Determinist>
imagine... a single bug in ternjs can lead to a bunch of broken websites worked on by the silly fuckers that keep pounding stackoverflow with their 2000 line long code dumps
<gkatsev>
lol
<purr>
lol
<Determinist>
why is my code not working? here it is...
<gkatsev>
but it'll help real programmers do even better
<Determinist>
fuck you, i'm not debugging your code for 10 virtual points in some website
<Determinist>
gkatsev: real programmers don't need ternjs :)
<gkatsev>
a different kind of real programmers
<alexgordon>
maybe not, but they'll *want* it
<Determinist>
*shrug*
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<Determinist>
tbh, i don't know what people find in Sublime Text 2. i find it slow and clunky.
<gkatsev>
vim all the way
<Determinist>
nah
<Determinist>
computers should serve humans, not the other way around
<Determinist>
alexgordon: gimme sunburst :P
<alexgordon>
sunburst?
<Determinist>
TM theme
<alexgordon>
is this like a self esteem thing? your editor's theme has got to be uglier than you are?
<alexgordon>
...that was needlessly insulting
<alexgordon>
Determinist: you can import tmthemes anyway
<Determinist>
nah, i'm Israeli, you need a gun to insult me :P
<gkatsev>
ooh, israeli
<alexgordon>
oh israeli, so you're related to PHP?
<Determinist>
*rolls eyes*
* gkatsev
is from israel
* Determinist
nods
<gkatsev>
Determinist: still in israel?
<Determinist>
gkatsev: actually, just got back after a couple of years in the US
<gkatsev>
cool
<gkatsev>
I've been in the US since 2000
<Determinist>
where at?
<gkatsev>
Boston
<Determinist>
cool
<gkatsev>
where were you in the US?
<Determinist>
I've been to NY and CA, 50/50
<gkatsev>
where in israel? I was in hertzelia
<Determinist>
Lived in NY, did a lot of business trips to CA
<Determinist>
Or-Yehuda, currently, but most of the time during the last few years I was in Givatayim
<Determinist>
before going to the US, that is
<gkatsev>
cool
<Determinist>
*nod*
<gkatsev>
I'm probably not going to return to israel for any long term periods of time
<Determinist>
well, i wouldn't either
<Determinist>
but I got tired of my wife's whinings
<gkatsev>
lol
<purr>
lol
<gkatsev>
and currently, I probably am not going to even go to visit because of the whole army thing
<Determinist>
then again, in hindsight, perhaps New York wasn't the wisest choice for the first place to move to in the US, with regard to the wife and kid
<gkatsev>
NYC?
<Determinist>
yeah
<gkatsev>
yeah
<Determinist>
I loved NYC, wife ... not so much
<gkatsev>
idk, when I get kids, I'll be unschooling/homeschooling them.
<Determinist>
gotta admin tho, between SF and NYC, I'd pick SF any day
<Determinist>
gkatsev: sounds great in theory, less so in practice. when you have kids, eventually, you go the much less idealistic and much more pragmatic route.
<Determinist>
s/admin/admit
<gkatsev>
idk
<Determinist>
let's talk in a few years once you actually have kids. i'm willing to bet you're gonna sound a lot different. i know i used to :)
<Determinist>
not FUD, just plain experience, unfortunately
<Determinist>
either that, or i'm just a lazy fuck. also a possibility :)
<gkatsev>
a cow-orker has been homeschooling 2 kids and just pulled out a 3rd from his highschool because the highschool was a bitch
<gkatsev>
Determinist: watching 'Waiting for Superman' really makes you not want to send your kids to school, particularly in the US
<Determinist>
gkatsev: doubt the educational system in Isreal is much better than that of the US
<gkatsev>
yeah
<Determinist>
besides, if you care about your kids, homeschooling or not, it's your responsibility to make sure they learn something. school is more like a free babysitter for most people.
<gkatsev>
heh
<gkatsev>
and it seems like it'll be easier and better to make sure they learn via unschooling/homeschooling
<Determinist>
i don't know if i'm gonna actually send my kid to school (she's 2... mind you), but i do know that if I end up doing that, i'm not going to expect her to learn anything there. it's mostly for the social aspect. don't feel like having an anti social kid. that's often overlooked.
<alexgordon>
well if you want good schools, finland is supposedly the best, and they're looking for programmers
<gkatsev>
unschooling has these camps specifically for the social thing.
<Determinist>
gonna keep my jewish ass outta europe. while i'm an atheist, i doubt the guys over there care to know more about me than the fact i'm jewish, especially if i end up in a muslim neighborhood. i couldn't care less about what a person believes, their race, color, gender, telepathic abilities or favorite dildo, but unfortunately, the other side does.
<gkatsev>
I would say it really depends where exactly you are in europe.
<Determinist>
true enough
<Determinist>
sweden, belgium, france, some parts of the netherlands... count me out.
<gkatsev>
sweden is probably alright
<Determinist>
as for finland, there's no way in hell I'd be able to convince my wife to move to such a cold place. NYC was pretty much as low as she was willing to go.
<alexgordon>
Determinist: well I've been to all those countries, and while I'm not exactly jewish, I certainly look it, and I've never had any problems
<gkatsev>
france particularly has problems
<Determinist>
alexgordon: not even sure what "looking jewish" even means
<gkatsev>
particularly because there is a huge muslim/arab population there
<gkatsev>
Determinist: white, big nose.
<Determinist>
gkatsev: france is not alone these days.
<Determinist>
gkatsev: really? white, big nose? not being a smartass here, but most of the people i know are jewish and don't look similar to that...
<gkatsev>
Determinist: I'm mostly joking.
<Determinist>
alexgordon: dude, chill, i don't care, just asking :P
<alexgordon>
I not unchilled! it's not a secret...
<alexgordon>
grandparents were from germany, moved to UK during the war, converted to christianity
<Determinist>
i'm not in the US anymore, I can actually afford to mention race without anyone giving me that self-righeous head shake
<gkatsev>
Determinist: but jews are often characterized by their nose.
<Determinist>
yeah, i know that, guys, i'm just fucking with you :)
<Determinist>
alexgordon: sounds like they were smart... i always like pragmatic solutions.
<alexgordon>
my dad looks pretty much like einstein
<Determinist>
mine doesn't, he's uglier :)
<alexgordon>
but yeah, I think perhaps the "dangers" of europe might be exaggerated in US/Israeli media?
<Determinist>
alexgordon: it's possible
<alexgordon>
certainly there's anti-semitic tendencies in some of the poorer countries
<Determinist>
alexgordon: and mind you, there's quite a difference between living somewhere and being a tourist. if you can't afford to live in a good neighborhood, you're going to most likely end up living close to a poor one, which usually means a large immigrant population and those guys aren't particularly fond of jews. just sayin.
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* Determinist_
blinks
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<Determinist>
did I miss anything?
<gkatsev>
no
<Determinist>
aight
<alexgordon>
I'm just surprised really, I would never think twice about going to france or certainly not the netherlands
<Determinist>
alexgordon: me neither, as a tourist, but I won't move there, especially not with a wife and kid.
<alexgordon>
I think most french would be more annoyed that I'm british than that I have curly hair and a big nose :P
<Determinist>
alexgordon: not particularly affraid of anything there, but: 1. i know english, so english countries sound like a better option to me. 2. english speaking countries are usually immigration countries with higher level of tolerance (a lot less likely for you to feel like an "auslander" in the US than in Austria, for example).
<Determinist>
and 3. why take the risk, as minor as it may be? i'm not liking what i'm seeing europe becoming and I doubt that trend is going to get reversed anytime soon (if anything, quite the opposite)
<micahjohnston>
Determinist: if you read SICP scheme will impress you
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: welcome back
<alexgordon>
Determinist: can't really generalize, sweden is very inclusive as long as you're not an arab ;)
<micahjohnston>
but yeah to weigh in on Haskell vs Ocaml
<micahjohnston>
Haskell is more dogmatic/pure, which is good for learning FP
<Determinist>
alexgordon: :)
<micahjohnston>
because you won't lean on stuff you already know, you'll be forced to go the full FP way
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: good to know
<Determinist>
although i kinda got that impression from alexgordon
<alexgordon>
yeah some countries in europe (france being the obvious one) are very protective about their language
<alexgordon>
others (such as the netherlands) have embraced english
<Determinist>
not sure if it's just the language
<Determinist>
i know for certain it's not the language in Austria
<alexgordon>
yeah austria is austria :P
<Determinist>
but those guys are not particularly fond of anyone, as long as they're not austrian
<alexgordon>
pretty much. austria and switzerland are more like rich exclusive clubs
<Determinist>
yeah well, i have no problem with rich exclusive clubs, as long as you don't get gassed to death if you're trespassing :P
<Determinist>
i wish people would just pull their heads out of their asses and realize what a fake stupid reality they live in, with all of these artificial and silly definitions that make life harder for everybody
<Determinist>
but, like i said, i like pragmatic people and this world is far from ideal
<micahjohnston>
alexgordon: iceland seems to have done both
<alexgordon>
well I have to say, it kind of makes sense why Israelis are so protective, if they think all of europe is going to kill them! :P
<Determinist>
alexgordon: gotta tell ya, I don't think that has anything to do with Europe, or at least that's not the vibe i'm getting
<Determinist>
alexgordon: i think the blowing busses, a little holocaust, qassam missiles and the bi-weekly declaration of one of those colorful arabic leaders that their mission in life is to see Israel in ashes have a bit more to do with it.
<Determinist>
now, granted, we've become a hobby for some arab countries... i remember reading an article about some Nyle water dispute between Ethiopia and Egypt and bumping into a quote about some Egyptian politicians blaming Israel for the disagreement between the two countries... after a while, you stop being amused and start realizing some of those guys are really out there to get you :P
<Determinist>
now, just in case your geography is a bit rusty... Israel is not even close to that border, not even remotely.
<Determinist>
i have no doubt those politicians are just being demagogues, but eventually, when you keep yelling something loud enough and for a long enough period of time, somebody's going to buy whatever you're selling.
<alexgordon>
sure, but then you could die of a heart attack
<Determinist>
you need to care enough for that to happen. i just don't. there's plenty of good and safe places to be in this world, Isreal being one of them. problem solved :)
<gkatsev>
israel is only partially safe.
<alexgordon>
not saying israel is risk free, or anything near that, but if you focus attention on one danger, it seems more likely
<gkatsev>
there are a lot of missiles around israel.
<Determinist>
alexgordon: i agree
<Determinist>
gkatsev: yeah... while that's true, it doesn't stop me from sleeping well at night. those missiles have been there and will be there. what's the point focusing on that?
<gkatsev>
just saying
<Determinist>
i know what you're saying
<alexgordon>
all I can say is, when I'm in france I'm much more scared about being killed in a car crash ;)
<Determinist>
wrong side of the road? :P
<alexgordon>
fucking maniacs
<gkatsev>
have you driven in israel? :D
<Determinist>
what is that thing anyways? couldn't you guys in the UK just decide to do what the rest of the world is doing and get it over with?
<alexgordon>
something about being easier to draw a sword on horseback
<gkatsev>
there's a reason why Waze was invented in israel.
<Determinist>
gkatsev: tbh, NYC is much much worse than anything i've seen in Israel.
<alexgordon>
if you drive on the right then your sword is on the wrong side
<gkatsev>
NYC is crazier in a different way
<Determinist>
those taxi drivers... those guys all have a deathwish
<Determinist>
alexgordon: yeah, isn't it time to kinda let go of horses and swords?
<alexgordon>
at this point it would be too dangerous to change it
<alexgordon>
and too expensive
<Determinist>
moving a buncha signs?
<Determinist>
how much could that possibly cost?
<Determinist>
or am i being naive?
<alexgordon>
you would have to stop all cars for a day
<alexgordon>
and yeah, moving all signs
<Determinist>
alexgordon: probably
<alexgordon>
and like signals
<alexgordon>
but also
<Determinist>
the cars themselves
<alexgordon>
steering wheel would be on the wrong side
<alexgordon>
yeah
<alexgordon>
very expensive
<Determinist>
that's the main obstacle
<gkatsev>
moving the signs to the other side of the road isn't really going to fix stuff
<alexgordon>
anyway, at least we're an island
<alexgordon>
think about hong kong!
<gkatsev>
the roads have made with driving on the left side in mind
<gkatsev>
you'd have to rebuild some of the roads
<micahjohnston>
well, I'm probably gone for the night
<Determinist>
gkatsev: i know :P
<gkatsev>
and definitely repaint a whole bunch
<micahjohnston>
bye
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: later dude
<micahjohnston>
nice talking to you Determinist
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: definitely
<Determinist>
micahjohnston: likewise, that is :P
<alexgordon>
Determinist: ^ re letting go of horses and swords... we still have a *queen*
<Determinist>
we should fix electronics and that whole + and - thing while we're at it :P
<alexgordon>
I mean, first things first
<alexgordon>
:P
<Determinist>
i could see why a queen would be a weird thing to have these days, but an even weirder thing is an unattractive queen. what's that about?
<gkatsev>
Determinist: electrons, you mean? GLWT
<alexgordon>
maybe in 100 years when we're part of the United European Union of America, we'll think about changing the roads
<Determinist>
gkatsev: yeah, i know. probably going to happen when the world moves to a resource based economy, the brits decide to drive like normal people do and the muslims declare that it's all good, no more fighting.
<alexgordon>
Determinist: she's only unattractive in canada, UK money has a much older picture on it :P
<alexgordon>
"more flattering"
<Determinist>
alexgordon: doubt she was ever a particularly good looking woman, tbh
<alexgordon>
hundreds of years of inbreeding does that to one
<Determinist>
i suppose that's true, yes
<Determinist>
that Diana broad did introduce some fine genes into that pool tho
<Determinist>
and what'shername who married that prince dude not so long ago, also a fine specimen :P
<devyn>
To install do: 'rvm install ruby-2.0.0-p0'
<devyn>
and it does the same thing
<devyn>
wat
<Nuck>
devyn: You expect too much from RVM
<Nuck>
I had a huge permissions error
<Nuck>
I went into #rvm, asked for help
<Nuck>
They said "yeah that's a known error" and then left
<Nuck>
Not even a workaround or advice
<devyn>
haha
<devyn>
SO says I have to use --with-gcc=clang
<devyn>
I shall try
<devyn>
compilation is so fast with my SSD
<devyn>
o.o
<Nuck>
Hrm
<Nuck>
I think I'll use unicorn anyways just because it's just about as easy to do, and provides one major benefit — zero downtime deployes
<Nuck>
If you send it the signal, it'll just spawn a new version of itself, kill the old one, and everything
<devyn>
I bet I could do that myself
<devyn>
by having thin start a temporary socket, and then moving it in place after it's all set up
<Nuck>
Well, yes, but this one is as easy as sending a signal
<devyn>
and mine is as easy as systemctl restart <appname>
<devyn>
…
<devyn>
or git push
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
Well, perhaps, but you have to engineer it yourself
<Nuck>
Whereas unicorn does it itself
<devyn>
yeah, but by engineering it myself, I understand everything about it, so if I ever have a problem I can fix it very quickly
<Nuck>
I understand this too
<devyn>
it's not the same — by this, I mean I know everything there is to know about it
<devyn>
whereas I wouldn't be reading all of unicorn's code
<devyn>
and this is only like 50 lines, maybe, anyway
<Nuck>
Well by that logic why don't you go make yourself a processor?
<devyn>
well it's a balance of cost/benefit :p
<devyn>
this doesn't take me much time, and the benefit is pretty good
<devyn>
because honestly, I don't trust a lot of ruby webdev tools
<Nuck>
Unicorn is attached to a Unix socket so that makes the hand-off easy (there's always a listener on the socket), and it's just checking after it starts up if there's a PID file already
<devyn>
and libs
<devyn>
right, and I just use unix sockets with thin
<Nuck>
And then if there is, it kills it once it's spun up the workers
<Nuck>
Sure, you can write it from scratch, but why not let somebody else do your work
<Nuck>
Good programmers are lazy
<Nuck>
Therefore you are a bad programmer, devyn.
<devyn>
because then I have to trust that person to fix it if something goes wrong :p
<Nuck>
:P
<devyn>
I've been burned too many times by libs with awful maintainers, although I probably wouldn't mind for widely used things like unicorn
<Nuck>
Yeah, Unicorn's got GitHub on their user list
<Nuck>
GitHub even hosts their own mirror on their own site
<devyn>
only because defunkt made it /for/ GitHub
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
I wasn't sure about that, cause of the way it's not set up like defunkt's other repos
<Nuck>
The GitHub one is a mirror instead of a primary
<devyn>
maybe just because it's an older one
<Nuck>
that's possible
<Nuck>
So far in Ruby, the only repos and gems I've learned to trust to "just work" are defunkt's.
<devyn>
at the bare minimum I'll do something fun with OpenBox
<Nuck>
I went so far as to replace oh-my-zsh with a custom system for managing configs which is compatible with oh-my-zsh in many ways
<Nuck>
Ultimate DIY
<devyn>
that's kinda fun
<Nuck>
I'm gonna be moving my dotfiles to that this weekend
<devyn>
looks nice and simple too
<Nuck>
That's the idea
<Nuck>
One file, designed to be submodule'd into a dotfiles repo
<devyn>
“A ZShell Bundle is a directory containing a set of related functions, utilities, completions, etc. in the same layout as a full oh-my-zsh install.”
<Nuck>
Doesn't work yet
<devyn>
I would recommend just putting a little recap of that format there
<Nuck>
And that's beign killed
<devyn>
oh ok
<Nuck>
The oh-my-zsh form is redundant
<devyn>
well get your README up to date
<Nuck>
I've decided I'm gonna pare it down and provide a repo which acts as a shim
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
devyn: This is the develop branch — it's not publically released yet
<Nuck>
I ahd to put that backburner to whip out a quick Rails app for dA's community
<Nuck>
We've got all the third party devs working together to replace an old PHP system with a new FOSS Rails one
<Nuck>
And I wanna put this on my list for HackNYW
<Nuck>
Which, incidentally, I'm a finalist on
<devyn>
alright, everything's up and running with ruby 2.0
<devyn>
I think.
<devyn>
lol
<Nuck>
Nice
<Nuck>
I'm still trying to kill the remnants of Ruby
<Nuck>
ruby-build splattered its guts all over /usr/local
<Nuck>
Sorta scraping them off the walls
<devyn>
yeah… I never install custom things to /usr/local… I always give them their own prefix and include that in my PATH
<devyn>
or, better,
<devyn>
I make an arch package
<devyn>
which really is pretty easy
<Nuck>
Yeah don't have that option on Debian :/
<Nuck>
Like I said, I really miss Arch
<Nuck>
But using Arch for a *production* server is kinda just insanity
<devyn>
not really… I just don't update very often, and when I do, I don't do a full upgrade
<devyn>
I do it somewhat incrementally
<devyn>
it takes a while but it's worth it
<Nuck>
Well, Debian is stable as fuck and sucky as hell
<Nuck>
But for this, I want stable
<Nuck>
Plus none of my coconspirators seem to understand pacman or yaourt
<devyn>
well, my arch box has been stable as fuck lately
<devyn>
not sure how exactly
<devyn>
it used to crash all the time because the mobo is bad or something
<devyn>
but now I'm sitting at 42 days uptime, which is a record for this box
<Nuck>
My home server has awful circulation, tiny high-pitched fans, and cheap parts
<Nuck>
But it's working well enough
<devyn>
yeah well mine's similar, though the fans aren't high-pitched
<devyn>
just loud
<devyn>
and the mobo's memory interface is broken or something
<devyn>
occasionally it derps
<devyn>
and the whole thing crashes
<devyn>
but the sensors are reporting
<devyn>
CPU Temperature: +40.0°C (high = +60.0°C, crit = +95.0°C)
<devyn>
which is decent for a constant load of about 20% CPU
<devyn>
on a dual core machine
<devyn>
and it's probably pretty dusty in there now
<devyn>
haven't cleaned it in a long time…
<Nuck>
My home server is just an Intel Atom
<Nuck>
Amazingly, first one which has x86_64
<Nuck>
Which is nice
<devyn>
oh this is running an AMD Athlon 7750
<devyn>
which is 64-bit
<devyn>
and dual-core
<devyn>
maybe once I've stopped spending loads and loads of cash on my high performance rig, I'll buy a new mobo and processor for my server
<devyn>
can probably do that for like $100 now, if I just want cheap parts
<Nuck>
I think mine is on a MicroATX Mobo or something
<Nuck>
It's a tiny little mobo, and the ventilation is shit due to the cables
<Nuck>
But atoms are low-power low-heat so it's not a big deal
<Nuck>
And according to most studies, temp has little effect on HDD lifespans nowadays, the biggest problem is manufacturing defects
<devyn>
wow, AMD A4s are cheap
<devyn>
lol what the fuck
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
newegg has a AMD A4 + 750W power supply combo
<devyn>
why the hell you need a 750W power supply if you're going with something as low down as an A4
<devyn>
I haven't a clue
<Nuck>
devyn: Do you know if there's a way to force ruby building to be accelerated across multiple cores?
<Nuck>
Cause I've got a 4-core server here
<devyn>
make -j 4
<Nuck>
Cool, I'm sure ruby-build has a way to pass that in
<devyn>
wow now I really want to compile something on my overclocked 8-core server
<devyn>
hahahaha
<Nuck>
Ah cool MAKEOPTS
<Nuck>
haha
<Nuck>
This is virtualized, but 4 cores still
<Nuck>
And I know he doesn't overbook
<devyn>
over…book?
<devyn>
you on a phone
<devyn>
?
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
like, put too many things on one server
<Nuck>
Like the cheapo VPS companies usually do
<devyn>
oh
<devyn>
lol k
<Nuck>
ruby-build is much nicer with the -v flag
<Nuck>
I don't like the lack of feedback
<devyn>
yeah, whenever I install things with homebrew I always -v
<devyn>
I like feedback when compiling
<devyn>
btw I'm currently git cloneing the linux kernel
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
Is that how you plan on learning C++?
<Nuck>
Ah good it caught OpenSSL this time
<Nuck>
Building into ~/ruby this time
<devyn>
Nuck: no, I was going to make a little interpreted language in C++ because that helped me learn C
<devyn>
might go further and use LLVM, since it's C++
<devyn>
fuck it I'm gonna just get a tarball
<devyn>
github's being slow
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
And built
<Nuck>
Awesome.
<Nuck>
Is /etc/profile sourced for noninteractive terminals?
<Nuck>
er, shells
<devyn>
maybe
<Nuck>
aha
<Nuck>
/etc/rc.d
<Nuck>
Actually
<Nuck>
Since it's per user...
* devyn
compiles linux with make -j 8
<devyn>
hehehehehe
<Nuck>
haha
<Nuck>
Oh fancy
<Nuck>
I don't have to muck around with the configs, possibly
<Nuck>
Though I'd really like to...
<devyn>
oh my god man this is going so fast
<devyn>
lololol
<purr>
lol
<Nuck>
How many cores you got?
<devyn>
4 cores, 8 logical processors
<Nuck>
Hyperthreading?
<devyn>
so yeah, I just compiled the linux kernel in 2 minutes
<Nuck>
haha nice
<devyn>
not hyperthreading, AMD fusion cores
<Nuck>
Ahh
<Nuck>
Similar premise?
<devyn>
well, it's similar in that you have one physical core
<devyn>
that can run two threads
<devyn>
but in the fusion cores, there are actually duplicates of most things
<devyn>
things like the floating point coprocessor are shared
<devyn>
but, lots of things actually are separately threaded
<Determinist>
aight, switched from Linkinus to Textual
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<vil>
Determinist: irssi
<Determinist>
vil: nay
<Determinist>
i actually really like textual. seems pretty neat so far.
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<gqbrielle>
hi guise
<gqbrielle>
i keep forgetting today isn't friday...
<Determinist>
System Information: Model: MacBook Pro (17-inch 2011) • CPU: Intel Core i7-2820QM (8 Cores) @ 2.30 GHz • L2: 262.14 KB • L3: 8.39 MB • Memory: 16.00 GB • Uptime: 1 Week • Disk Space: Total: 239.20 GB; Free: 87.54 GB • Graphics: Intel HD Graphics 3000, AMD Radeon HD 6750M • Screen Resolution: 1920 x 1200 • Load: 10% • OS: Mac OS X 10.8.3 (Mountain Lion) (Build 12D78)
<Determinist>
oh, nice
<vil>
hi gqbrielle
<vil>
Determinist: that's a handy feature
<gqbrielle>
i hope this isn't going to turn into one of those days where alexgordon asks if i'm on crack
<vil>
does that happen often?
<gqbrielle>
depends on yr definition of 'often.'
<gqbrielle>
i've been feeling manic for the last few days.
<gqbrielle>
which is kind of exciting because i've been really tired of the depression i've sunk into.
<gqbrielle>
but that's bipolar for you.
<gqbrielle>
Always Something New.
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<gqbrielle>
being manic can come across as a lot of things (including just straight up crazy) but it often gives others the impression that the manic one is on drugs. like crack.
<gqbrielle>
:P
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<micahjohnston>
gqbrielle: cool/not cool
<gqbrielle>
hi micahjohnston
<vil>
^
<micahjohnston>
gqbrielle: as in exciting/fun but also dangerous prolly :p
<devyn>
yeah, I never really bothered to learn C++
<devyn>
but I think I should
<micahjohnston>
I just wrote a game in it!
<devyn>
micahjohnston: I compiled linux in two minutes
<micahjohnston>
my brother took like a day to compile linux
<micahjohnston>
how does that work
<devyn>
FX-8120 at 4.5 GHz
<devyn>
4x two-thread cores
<devyn>
each core has two integer modules and L1 caches
<devyn>
and I compiled with 8 threads
<devyn>
in a VM
<micahjohnston>
nice lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
'cept the FX-81xx doesn't have great branch prediction; I imagine the FX-83xx Piledriver architecture does even better
<devyn>
but it's still great
<devyn>
apparently the Intel i7-3960X can compile Linux in like a minute though :p
<devyn>
but it's like $1000
<devyn>
so fuck that
<devyn>
3930K comes close, but it's $600
<devyn>
so fuck that too
<Determinist>
do i wanna buy a pair of audio engine a5+ speakers?
<Determinist>
kinda liked the A5's
<Determinist>
but there were some issues. wondering if those went away in the A5+
<devyn>
micahjohnston: idea: tempus on a GPU
<devyn>
could compile to either OpenCL or GLSL depending on what you're using it for
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<vil>
Determinist: I always heard good things about the A5s
<Determinist>
vil: used to own a pair before the fuckers at fedex killed them during shipping from Israel to the US
<vil>
ouch
<Determinist>
yeah
<Determinist>
gonna buy a pair of A5+
<Determinist>
currently using the A2's, but i've decided I want something nicer and fuller.
<Determinist>
while the A2's are amazing, there's a limit to what those size speakers can do
<vil>
Determinist: my speaker system is a pair of old speakers with good high/mid and no bass, plus a pair with the opposite plugged into the subwoofer port
<vil>
ghetto bass
<Determinist>
heh
<Determinist>
does sound cool :P
<vil>
"cool", yeah
<vil>
haha
<Nuck>
Goddamn
<Nuck>
I've been spoiled by systemd
<Nuck>
I'm trying to wrap my mind around init scripts and basically just going "wait, it doesn't provide a builting system for running as a user? And there isn't some enable step to do?"
<alexgordon>
I think abstraction is the most important property there. The idea being that, if an enum is a group of constants, either the value of the constant is important, or it's incidental (this is distinct from whether it's specified explicitly or implicitly).
<alexgordon>
which is related to closure: either the enum is defines ALL the values that exist, or it only defines some of them and other ones are allowed instead
<alexgordon>
e.g. a closed enum might be the options for which you can open a file. There's only a set number of options: reading, writing, appending, binary/text, etc. So the enum is closed
<alexgordon>
but other times the enum is a subset of a wider set of values, like say the hex values of a bunch of colors. But note that an enum can be abstract, while being open: e.g. we may define a bunch of version numbers inside an enum, and want to change them later, but they're still ints