purr changed the topic of #elliottcable to: this is CLEARLY a cult.YEP
<alexgordon>
devyn: is goat bothering an IO dependency?
<devyn>
alexgordon: <?php $goat->bother(); ?>
<alexgordon>
devyn: I think we may need linear typing for this
<devyn>
alexgordon: ah I didn't actually read your paste
<devyn>
alexgordon: I see now
<devyn>
alexgordon: well yes, in order to do that you basically have to have a VM that assumes isolation and is aware of all possible effects of anything at compile time
<alexgordon>
lol also it's kinda bad language design because it's not that clear to a human either
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
well the human could ask the compiler how their code interacts
<alexgordon>
lol
<alexgordon>
code should be self documenting
<devyn>
ideally library authors would be kind enough to not create libraries that mutate global state without the user intentionally asking for that
<devyn>
yes, it should be
<devyn>
but that doesn't do fuck all for the compiler
<alexgordon>
devyn: I consider http.get to be intentionally asking for it
<devyn>
right, so then the compiler should be good enough to understand how things interact
<devyn>
of course it's up to the user to design their application so it's not confusing and, well, spaghetti
<devyn>
but the compiler should be able to understand spaghetti
<alexgordon>
that's the best I can come up with, without it being a clusterfuck
<alexgordon>
gq: hey
<alexgordon>
...it actually looks very nice IMO
<gq>
alexgordon: yo
<alexgordon>
I like how "async" is very explicit and won't give any surprises
<devyn>
alexgordon: surely 'async x' just creates a future
<devyn>
?
<alexgordon>
yet you can still write stuff in a sequential style
<alexgordon>
devyn: nope!
<alexgordon>
perhaps equivalently
<devyn>
explain
<alexgordon>
but I was thinking more like
<gq>
my parakeets are Very Concerned about the video i'm playing
<devyn>
is the video of birds being killed?
<glowcoil>
12:42:02 <+alexgordon> because any system of telling the compiler the dependencies, will necessarily be MORE complex than just
<glowcoil>
coding them in yourself
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: I *very much* disagree
<gq>
no, it's of a dude playing taps, devyn
<gq>
they're just concerned, because they're weird
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: lol I KNEW you would
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: imperative/sequential languages are just
<glowcoil>
"this statement depends on *every single* line above it"
<glowcoil>
on the pipelining level you can isolate things
<glowcoil>
but not on the statement level
<glowcoil>
since you do things for ordering as much as for values
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: dependencies are more than lines though, think about why the monitor pattern exists...
<devyn>
FTR I'm still on the automatic dependency resolution side with marking for ordering if really, truly necessary (like haskell `seq`)
<glowcoil>
but if you use value-binding and explicit ordering
<glowcoil>
idfk what the monitor pattern is
<alexgordon>
devyn: erm, which language should I write this in?
<alexgordon>
JS?
<alexgordon>
C++?
<devyn>
what, exactly?
<alexgordon>
devyn: you asked what that code transforms to
<alexgordon>
I'm writing it
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: when you have async/multithreaded stuff then it's not just all the lines before, and callbacks is explicitly specifiying your dependencies in a really verbose way
<devyn>
ah, ok uhm, do JS I guess
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: but it's always a *subset* of all the lines before
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: did you look at my pastie. no callbacks :P
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: your do block was a callback
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: just specifying when things aren't depended on by everything that comes after
<glowcoil>
right, futures are a runtime solution
<alexgordon>
I mean I'm using groups here which are semaphores which are futures
<alexgordon>
cps futures if you will
<devyn>
that is worse than futures honestly
<alexgordon>
devyn: no because... no blocking
<alexgordon>
blocking on IO is evil
<devyn>
yes, it blocks
<alexgordon>
no it doesn't!
<alexgordon>
where does it block?
<devyn>
waiting for the group to finish
<alexgordon>
there's no waiting
<alexgordon>
apple_and_bother takes a callback
<devyn>
that doesn't mean there's no waiting; that just means you're letting other things run
<alexgordon>
which is called when both http.get and bother_a_goat have finished
<alexgordon>
devyn: aaaah but there's a BIG difference
<devyn>
you can make futures work exactly the same way though
<glowcoil>
devyn: futures are a runtime solution, this is a compile time solution
<alexgordon>
devyn: if you have 10 of these things going, with non-blocking IO they can all happen at the same time. with futures you will exhaust your thread pool
<glowcoil>
futures are implementable within the language
<glowcoil>
this is a syntax transformation
<alexgordon>
when you have no threads left when all your futures are blocking you WILL cry
<devyn>
yes, *obviously* this is what I was talking about when I was talking about futures
<devyn>
not spawing threads
<devyn>
why would I be talking about spawning threads
<alexgordon>
devyn: you miss my point...
<alexgordon>
futures work by blocking until a computation has completed, right?
<devyn>
"blocking" doesn't necessarily mean blocking the OS thread
<alexgordon>
hm well... how else?
<glowcoil>
yeah if you have fibers or whatver
<glowcoil>
or haskell mvars and forkio
<devyn>
asynchronous programming in node.js is really just equivalent to multithreading with cooperative multitasking
<joelteon>
i love having 8 cores
<joelteon>
but i want 12
<joelteon>
):
<joelteon>
maybe i can hack my macbook to do it
<alexgordon>
devyn: yeah but node is single threaded :P
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: ew.
<devyn>
alexgordon: effectively you're creating lightweight threads though with the execution queue
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: sure that's runtime rather than compile time
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: but mvars are implemented inside haskell
<devyn>
alexgordon: it *is* multithreading; you've just got the threads being emulated instead of using OS threads
<devyn>
alexgordon: and it's not preemptive but cooperative
<devyn>
alexgordon: with an event pool and an execution queue
<alexgordon>
eh we're so far apart there's no agreeing
<devyn>
alexgordon: when I say "blocking", I mean relative to the lightweight thread in the same way that http.get("foo", function () { }) "blocks"
<alexgordon>
devyn: yeah but in my mind, lightweight threads are absolutely not an option
<devyn>
the function is blocked until the action is finished
<devyn>
but these are equivalent to lightweight threads
<devyn>
absolutely is
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: wat
<alexgordon>
devyn
<alexgordon>
aiwjdoiawjd
<alexgordon>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Wish I had the time to read that whole conversation. Sounds interesting. What y'all talking about?
<alexgordon>
devyn: depends on your definition. this is just a thread pool with semaphores
<alexgordon>
devyn: but this isn't "blocking". it's non blocking IO...
<devyn>
alexgordon: brb, but effectively every time you set a callback to execute after an event, you've created a new lightweight thread that blocks until the event happens
<alexgordon>
so I'm starting to wrap my head around this now
<alexgordon>
basically all you're passing around is a continuation and a semaphore
<gq>
oh god
<gq>
something awful is happening downstairs
<gq>
it smells like someone is cooking a tire that's been slathered in hamburger helper
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: protip for minecrafting: server needs to be up
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is it down
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I dunno I haven't played
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yep
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
dicks
<alexgordon>
"house might be on fire, also minecraft server is down"
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
news.com
<gq>
alexgordon: if it is on fire then the hamburger helper smell is probably a burnt sibling
<gq>
alexgordon: so that's unfortunate or something
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
died
<alexgordon>
gq: no you're ok, humans smell like bacon (according to hitchens)
<alexgordon>
it's probably a hamburger
<gq>
considering that due to something gone wrong with the oven lining the fire alarms go off every time food goes out of the oven...
<gq>
if there WAS an actual fire and the alarms didn't go off i would be Very Peeved
<gq>
also probably dead
<gq>
but, you know, priorities.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: the group thing seems a lot like futures
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: yes but the difference is that futures block, and this doesn't
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I actually used it for futures in chocolat
<devyn>
glowcoil: yeah I think explicit ordering is better when necessary. by default just assume that if y depends on x then it should execute after, but if for some reason there's a dependency that isn't transparent like that, you can order intentionally
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: and again futures don't have to block
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: they don't?
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: in an async environment
<alexgordon>
I thought that was the definition of one
<glowcoil>
well you can have
<glowcoil>
"block" means just stop taking up time
<glowcoil>
until you get resumed
<glowcoil>
that's how "lightweight" threads work
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: block means to sit on your arse holding up other computations :P
<glowcoil>
like haskell threads and fibres and shit
<glowcoil>
ok then in that case they don't have to block
<glowcoil>
whatever you want to define it as they don't have to do that
<alexgordon>
ok well it might be equivalent but, it's certainly more pure
<devyn>
if js let you intercept messages you could implement futures rather easily without blocking the entire program, but js isn't ruby
<glowcoil>
what do you mean more pure
<gq>
this must be a really slow burning fire
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: in terms of implementation
<gq>
i wonder if somebody fainted on top of a burner or something
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: it's hard to show in JS, easier in C
<devyn>
alexgordon: CPS is rather simple, actually; futures are a little yuckier
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: a group is two things: a semaphore (an int that is incremented and decremented in a thread safe way), and an optional callback that gets called when it goes back to its original value
<alexgordon>
so that's what, 8 bytes for an int, 8 bytes for a function pointer, and 8 bytes for a pointer to the context
<alexgordon>
are you lightweight threads more or less than 24 bytes?
<alexgordon>
:P
<alexgordon>
*your
<alexgordon>
oh additionally in GCD you have a queue, so 32-bytes
<devyn>
alexgordon: CPS would be exactly equivalent minus the semaphore, and the compiler could automatically unroll that to only requiring IO to have it
<devyn>
okay, yes, that's CPS, but you don't even need to create 'groups'
<alexgordon>
devyn: you do if you're starting multiple async computations in one function, but want _one_ continuation
<alexgordon>
imagine a web crawler that downloads loads of different sites but calls a callback when it's finished
<devyn>
alexgordon: except that inherently you're saying that what non-async part comes after those async statements necessarily depend on them, which isn't necessarily the case
<devyn>
alexgordon: much better to have the compiler resolve that and group as needed
<alexgordon>
devyn: hmmmm well that kind of thing should be done manually
<alexgordon>
my philosophy is that the language and compiler should assume the most sequential interpretation
<alexgordon>
if the programmer wants to make it more async, then that's fine
<devyn>
okay, what if you've got async a and async b, and one thing you want to do after only depends on a but another depends on a AND b
<devyn>
do you force both to wait?
<alexgordon>
you use a do block
<alexgordon>
that would be a "fork"
<devyn>
you don't have to though
<devyn>
it's not necessary
<alexgordon>
IMO, you do
<alexgordon>
it's the only sane way
<alexgordon>
otherwise the language has to make assumptions that might not be true, and that's when you get problems
<devyn>
the assumption would be that if a statement depends on a, it should be executed when a is ready; if it depends on a AND b, it should be executed when both are ready, and glowcoil and I are saying that you could have a manual ordering declaration to take care of whenever you don't want that to happen
<alexgordon>
but you're thinking in terms of statements
<alexgordon>
but there are other kinds of dependencies, aside from simply variable dependencies
<devyn>
yes, don't worry about that IMO. if that's the case, force the user to order
<alexgordon>
users are stupid, bugs will ensue
<devyn>
and make it very syntactically unobtrusive to do so
<devyn>
they will learn if it's a core part of the language :p
<alexgordon>
nah, they won't
<alexgordon>
I still forget semicolons, after 10 years on the job
<alexgordon>
thank GOD I have a compiler that can give an error when that happens
<alexgordon>
anyway, I gotta stop, getting a headache :P
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
this has been a productive discussion though :)
<alexgordon>
at least for me :P
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: here's an idea:
<gq>
why do i engage in facebook discussions?
<gq>
the stupid is overwhelming
<glowcoil>
come from statements
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: hahahaha
<glowcoil>
but the high level equivalent
<glowcoil>
:D
<glowcoil>
like for instance
<alexgordon>
_
<alexgordon>
-
<alexgordon>
_
<alexgordon>
haha that might not actually be a horrible idea
<alexgordon>
haha I don't know what to think about it
<glowcoil>
because over all
<glowcoil>
each line can happen a lot of times
<glowcoil>
because print(a.list each)
<alexgordon>
that would be an interesting language to make
<glowcoil>
also then we can design a set of patterns like while and shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
)=
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE
<alexgordon>
hi
<purr>
alexgordon: hi!
<gq>
purr: not you you little attention whore
yorick has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<alexgordon>
gq: is your house still on fire?
<glowcoil>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<gq>
alexgordon: probably
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: let's make an AI
<glowcoil>
the best AI in the world
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
No
<glowcoil>
ok :c
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
* ELLIOTTCABLE
pats purr
* purr
rrrrrrr
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that would make poor purr jealous
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: xD
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: we could always make purr better
<devyn>
:D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Go do that <3
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I have people asking me for changes and shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Fuck thaaaaaaaaaaaaat
<devyn>
I don't think I have ssh access to ell.io anymore... I'll try again though
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Code.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Fuck code.
<devyn>
oh I guess I do
<devyn>
never mind
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE renounces code & turns to a life of crochet.
* alexgordon
is watching cooking programmes on youtube because I'm hungry
<glowcoil>
i feel like it would be too hard to train an ai on solely text and the internet since humans live in real life most of the time
<glowcoil>
and learn in real life
<glowcoil>
etc.
<gq>
alexgordon: i feel if i tried that i would eventually break down & they'd find me licking the screen & whimpering
<devyn>
love thinking about coding, hate actually doing it, right? :p
<glowcoil>
and have a lot of built in social incentives that don't come across without already knowing how to read
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: what do you want your AI to do?
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: be a person
<glowcoil>
lol
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
like people talk about ai being useful for all these applciations but quite honestly
<glowcoil>
i want to make an actual person
<glowcoil>
like please understand i'm not going ot just
<glowcoil>
"hey ELLIOTTCABLE alexgordon let's make a person" and we do it in a weekend
<glowcoil>
lol
<glowcoil>
but yeah
<gq>
really because that sounds exactly like what you guys would do
<gq>
one of you is going to get married & try to have a bachelor party with the other two
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I know how to do that, but it takes 9 months
<gq>
and end up with an A.I.
<glowcoil>
anyway like i'm majoring in math and cs and probably going to have a lot of emphasis on ai, and maybe grad school in neuro shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
devyn: nah
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: lol
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: tbh, my way is more fun
<glowcoil>
but less original
<alexgordon>
I dunno, there's a LOT of chat bots
<glowcoil>
yeah but they're all shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
GQ: that happened.
<gq>
there's a thinger on tumblr right now claiming to be an A.I.
<gq>
but people are suspicious.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
plot-twist: its you.
<gq>
it's obsessed with gibson guitars.
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: don't tell d okay
<glowcoil>
yeah the turing test is kinda
<glowcoil>
uh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
D is the disease in the machine.
<glowcoil>
i mean like, if you only have access to the turing test
<glowcoil>
like it can be a controlled trial to see :P
<alexgordon>
gq: lol chances of me getting married in the next decade are between -5 and 0
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
but even then I think it's a super ambiguous test
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
The delusion of a damaged virtuality.
<gq>
alexgordon: let me enjoy the imagery, okay, jeez
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: are you saying d is a delusion?
<alexgordon>
gq: but micah's mormon, so he'll be getting married any day now
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
for the first time
<glowcoil>
yeah i haven't gone on a date in...probably a year
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I expect quintuplets. He excells at everythinfcelse , why not producing babies?
<alexgordon>
gq: then when jesus comes back they'll both go up to heaven for an orgy or something
<alexgordon>
Current Topic: micah's fertility
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
horgy
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
-topic @ alexgordon
<purr>
alexgordon: this is CLEARLY a cult.YEP
<gq>
alexgordon: i'm expecting it to turn out like the plot of orgazmo
<devyn>
I haven't in uh, a few years. ain't got time for that.
<alexgordon>
I mean, that's what is supposed to happen in heaven right?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I had a date tonight
<alexgordon>
it's not just playing scrabble is it?
<gq>
alexgordon: i think all the dudes turn into gods and all the ladies are pregnant forever
<alexgordon>
if so I feel it's been missold
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
She rescheduled
<gq>
idk
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So I did fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
<gq>
we learned about mormons at my christian school during our section on cults
<gq>
so my info may be a bit uh
<gq>
biased
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
uuuuck-all with my day
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: :c
<alexgordon>
gq: if i know my bible correctly, all the dudes turn into gods and the ladies have to make them sandwiches
<alexgordon>
gq: then you sacrifice a son
<glowcoil>
gq: all the things that are relevant to cults and also that a christian school would talk about are not *especially* relevant to my life
<glowcoil>
my upbringing was basically similar to a fundie's
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
glowcoil kills girls in bathtubs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Or is that scientologist s
<glowcoil>
uhh
<gq>
just tom cruise, it hink
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: rescheduled? or "rescheduled"?
<gq>
(i think
<gq>
alexgordon: i'm betting she told him she had to wash her hair
<devyn>
ELLIOTTCABLE: fun fact, out the window right now I have an excellent view of a Church of Scientology
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
My entire weekend was"rescheduling"
<alexgordon>
gq: ha
<gq>
bathe her pet parakeet
<gq>
eat the dog's homework
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Thursday: Girl was depressed, slept all day, rescheduled to Friday.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Friday: same girk , ditched me
<gq>
she sounds awesome
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Saturday: second girl, begging me to attend her party. I ditched it to hang with a bro who was depressed 'cuz he'd gotten dumped*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Ended up having a party with him and First Girl
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Sunday: long-existing movie-night plans with Third Girl.
<gq>
...two many girls
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: what was wrong with girl #2 again?
<gq>
*too
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I hit her up a couple hours before we were supposed to meet up; she snaps at me. Didn't even remember our plans. I was mildly hurt.
<gq>
alexgordon: nothing, ELLIOTTCABLE was just the one doing the rescheduling in that case
<alexgordon>
gq: this is our frat house
* alexgordon
fistbumps ELLIOTTCABLE
* alexgordon
is british, has no idea what people do in frat houses
<gq>
alexgordon: sketchy things
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Monday: went with ex-girl to hang with ex's-best-friend-girl.
<gq>
alexgordon: generally involving copious amounts of shitty beer and/or unwise amounts of hard liquor, lots of dudes whose idea of what 'consent' means is dubious at best
<alexgordon>
we're at 5 girls so far?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Tuesday: (is that today? I haven't left the house in too long.) Rescheduled on by Fourth Girl.
<alexgordon>
gq: haha
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: sounds like you have a quality control issue
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Fourth isn't free tomorrow. Might make plans with First or Second.
<gq>
i feel like if ELLIOTTCABLE ever tried speed dating he'd just end up taking them all home
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: increasingly, since i've been using java more for this class, i'm realizing it's not even the really good sandwich you think it is
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: WHAT
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
First rocks, miss her; Second, I've been rescheduling on for weeeeeeeeks and kinda deserves my attention.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: java is the good sandwich that my future wife will make for me when we're both in heaven after jesus has come back and collected us in his minibus
<gq>
in his catbus
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: way.
<gq>
jesus definitely drives a catbus
<gq>
or a volkswagen van.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: wat.
<purr>
beep.
<devyn>
alexgordon: honestly a coffee sandwich sounds pretty good
* alexgordon
pukes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
… tea sandwich?
<gq>
devyn: just taste-visioned a sandwich with mayo and mustard that's been dunked in a latte
<gq>
brb, puking
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I have only gotten out of bed once, today l. Spent the rest of it reading in bed. Ordered falafel.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: aren't we posh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
#excellenthumanbeing
<alexgordon>
would you like some halloumi to go with that?
<devyn>
gq, alexgordon: I didn't mean with mayo and mustard and all that... more like, coffee and some kind of cakey bread, like a coffee cake
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
all of my social contact is girls. Except @jdhartley, and he's worth seven girls. Maybe eight depending on eating disorders.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I need male friends.
<devyn>
chocolate covered espresso beans and cake
<gq>
devyn: too late, i've already taste-visioned it. coffee cake is pretty legit though. i had that one year instead of a birthday cake.
<alexgordon>
devyn: IMO I would never eat that, but I guess people who like coffee cake would like it
<glowcoil>
my friends are actually kinda gender-balanced lately
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Oh my god I was introduced to Tres Leches cake the other day
<glowcoil>
for a while there was heavily male-leaning
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I DIED. simply DIED.
<glowcoil>
but pretty balanced now
<gq>
i basically have no IRL friends anymore.
<gq>
d's bad social life habits have rubbed off on me.
<gq>
we are internet recluses.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
goodbye programming penises
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: most of ELLIOTTCABLE's friends are female, but he never actually *sees* them, so we can't say for sure
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lol lol look lol lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
I have a few IRL friends but honestly I just don't like people most of the time
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I did see them! Just at no point did I see one I was *supposed* to see.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I need more sex.
* alexgordon
imagines ELLIOTTCABLE as a sort of House character
<alexgordon>
lives in his grand apartment
<gq>
having a rampaging mental illness that takes a wildly fluctuating toll on the amount of social energy i have to spend doesn't really hep
<alexgordon>
once in a while orders hookers
<gq>
alexgordon: replace hookers with take-out food and i think you're right
<gq>
house just eats vicodin.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want to become *better*. It's basically all I'm good at, anymore, since I stopped being a programmer. /=
<devyn>
I enjoy people once we actually get onto an interesting topic
<devyn>
I don't really enjoy smalltalk
<devyn>
at all
<devyn>
I hate it
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you and me both, but I'm still programming
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
use ruby insread
<glowcoil>
devyn: yeah slate has a much more flexible programming model
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: where do you live now?
<devyn>
I knew you guys would do that
<devyn>
<3
<alexgordon>
devyn: I know what you mean, but I'm an objc programmer
<alexgordon>
smalltalk is just weird
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I imagine alexgordon's sex-life involves cobwebs.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: xD
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
lots and lots of cobwebs
<gq>
cobweb play
<gq>
like in the lotr movies
<gq>
people getting tied up and hung from the cieling
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
GQ: <3
<gq>
"can...can i come down?" "no."
* alexgordon
has got to try that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Been there.
<alexgordon>
I know.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
In fact, "sex while hanging from a ceiling" was one of my first sexual accomplishments.
<devyn>
woo, I have social plans tonight ^_^
<gq>
yeah, i remember you bragging about it
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: *yawn* you told us! but expand on it
<gq>
considering the other person involved, i'm still vaguely disbelieving
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
omg do we seriously go that far back
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Hahahahahaha
<devyn>
not sure I remember that
<alexgordon>
devyn: you weren't born yet
* gq
pushes devyn out of the room
<alexgordon>
it was a couple years ago
<gq>
alexgordon: lol
<purr>
lol
<devyn>
haha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I had some Fucking Serious bolts attached to the rafters. Originally installed to hold lots and pans.
<alexgordon>
what else
<gq>
PANS. and you used them for ex
<gq>
you would, you fucking would
<gq>
wait
<gq>
was this in the kitchen?
<gq>
oh my actual god.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it was a thing she wanted bad. *shrug*
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<devyn>
that is amazing
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: tbh, now I want to try this
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: lol i remember when you put the things up
<glowcoil>
for pots
<glowcoil>
devyn: pretty neat
<alexgordon>
devyn: my god you must actually be 2 yo
<devyn>
yeah I kinda do remember that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
that one also ruined bean bags for me
<glowcoil>
logs are neat
<devyn>
alexgordon: how so
<alexgordon>
devyn: this thing comes up every couple of years
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Like, I hear its an excellent sex thing, but idk, never worked out well /=
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: now I'm confused
<gq>
bean bags? for sex?
<gq>
that sounds like
<devyn>
alexgordon: yeah well excuse me for missing it the past few times
<gq>
such a horrible idea
<devyn>
alexgordon: that's like people yelling repost on reddit
<gq>
devyn: ceiling sex, devyn. you are not excused.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I had, what're they called
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Lovesaks
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
or somethjng
<alexgordon>
devyn: lol now you've seen it once, you'll have the pleasure of seeing it ALL THE FUCKING TIME
<purr>
lol
<gq>
afha;sijkdhf;aisydf;oiaysdf
<gq>
LOVE SAKS
<gq>
WHAT
<devyn>
haha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Gigantic bean-bags for sex
<alexgordon>
ó_ò
<devyn>
bean bags get kinda hard when you actually put something on them, so I'm not sure how that would really be beneficial
<alexgordon>
I can't imagine this at all
<alexgordon>
what's wrong with beds
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Lessee, how else can I weird out alexgordon
<gq>
or the ceiling
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Once broke a brand-new Macbook Retina 'cuz I farted during sex
* alexgordon
just launched himself headfirst into his keyboard
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: *she* broke it, or *you* broke it?
<devyn>
what even
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: pretty tame though
* gq
is making helpless wheezing noises at the computer
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
she starts laughing soooooooooooo hard. Probably the hardest i,'ve seen anybody laugh in NY life.
<devyn>
and she kicked it?
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: when we got together you had a weird sexual obsession with honey
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
finally spits out , "your dick vibrated."
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
"What?"
<devyn>
dhhahahahaha
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
"Your dick. It vibrated."
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I start laugjing , which makes her laugh even harder … she rolls over, knocks the Retina I'd literally opened *the day before* off the bed
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Screen would never close properly after that, nor hold an angle
<devyn>
ouch
<gq>
totes your fault for having a computer on the bed during sex
<gq>
well i was googling trying to find a place that sold bean bags specifically intended for sex
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Well, she was really paranoid about that afterwards.
<gq>
found a sketchy global trading website
<alexgordon>
gq: how else is he going to chatroulette it?
<gq>
alexgordon: ...true...
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
"bean bags for sex" "sketchy" YOU LIE.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
god. Android keyboard. So much hate.
<gq>
alexgordon: totally thought that was gonna be a picture of like...a sexy beanbag
<gq>
alexgordon: like a beanbag with tits
<alexgordon>
it isn't?
<devyn>
it's actually better than it used to be, but it's still not very good, which is why most people just swipe (it's built in)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
seen that porn
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
brb must find it now
<gq>
alexgordon: i think she's just sitting in one
<alexgordon>
android keyboard is really shit
<devyn>
yeah
<alexgordon>
gq: there's a beanbag?
<gq>
i hate swype
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
What the duck
<devyn>
not swype, gq
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Ships I'd SO ANNOYING
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
SWIPE*
<devyn>
it's a swype-like feature built into android now, gq
<alexgordon>
how come apple got the keyboard right in fucking iPhone OS 1?
<devyn>
it works way better
<gq>
i see
<alexgordon>
but android can't get it right after all this time?
<devyn>
alexgordon: honestly I have no clue
<devyn>
alexgordon: maybe no one wants to work on that
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
I think maybe it's because the screens suck?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It really doesn't seem to.
<alexgordon>
too imprecise
<devyn>
no, touch resolution is really good
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Or maybe I'm lying.
<alexgordon>
even at the corners?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Wish.
<devyn>
and that would vary from device to devince anyway al
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Woah*
<devyn>
alexgordon:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Nope still hate it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Sorry, I'm still testing this … Ginnie a sec.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Ugh worst thing. I hate shit that assumes all people use English identicallt .
<devyn>
alexgordon: there's a touch testing tool in the dev options, it's extremely precise, it's just that I'm sure Apple doesn't just look for touches but actually has some predictive stuff to assist or something
<devyn>
alexgordon: I should actually look to see whether there are any keyboard apps in the play store that work better
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Nope, Apple has a patent on using the *edges* of keys.
<devyn>
are you serious
<devyn>
what the fuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
If an f is more likely in the dictionary words, instead of a touch on the far-left edge of g registering and being repaired *later* (Android),
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
iOS doesn't even ever show it as a G. Even if your touch was actually on the g.
<devyn>
yeah, which is great
<devyn>
works pretty well most of the time
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
If an f is more likely, then the effective touch-target of the f key is enlarged.
<devyn>
but Android can't do that because it's patented?
<alexgordon>
they have a patent on that?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
That's what I heard, years back.
<alexgordon>
fucking patent system
<devyn>
:/
<joelteon>
authoritative answer
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Always explained the terrible Android keyboard for me.
<devyn>
it kind of makes sense, because that actually is rather innovative
<alexgordon>
devyn: yeah but it's the kind of innovative thing that... if it was your job, you'd come up with it too
<joelteon>
is that changed based on what you've typed ELLIOTTCABLE
<alexgordon>
it's not bitcoin level of innovation
<alexgordon>
just like, clever hack level of innovation
<devyn>
alexgordon: of course, but many inventions are that way, and they still get protected
<alexgordon>
yeah, which is why patents suck
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Its less about correctness, and more about *exoerience*. Tapping the exact same locations on either iOS or Android would result in the same word, after their respective corrections …
* devyn
shrugs
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<devyn>
it's just whoever comes up with it first
<alexgordon>
if I were king I'd get rid of everything but drug patents
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
It just FEELS like the iOS knew what you wanted,, because it never showed the mistake.
<devyn>
yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Thank god alexgordon isn't any sort of regent.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Hi I want to go back to talking about sex.
<glowcoil>
nosaj thing <3
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gq:
<devyn>
patents are a good thing and I don't think this is even an abuse of patents, it's just an annoyance
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sex
<devyn>
but that's exactly what Apple wants in this case
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: always down for sex
<gq>
sex.
<alexgordon>
my cock is special
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm not getting any tonight. So, clearly, I want to talk about it on IRC instead.
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: well i mean patents that save lives can be worse than just little convenience patents sometimes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Rhombical.
<gq>
the first time i had anal was while housesitting for my parents while they were gone camping
<gq>
drunk on the living room floor.
<gq>
that's about the most interesting sex story i have *shrug*
<purr>
¯\(º_o)/¯
<gq>
no ceiling fucking, sadly.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: drug patents encourage the production of drugs. what do keyboard patents encourage? would apple have dumped the iphone if they couldn't get this patent?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Ugh. Do not understand how people have sex while drunk.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: ikr
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
What's the POINT of sex, without the full mental facilities to be creative, exploratory. To make it intense?
<alexgordon>
takes all the fun out of it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
That's just … putting penises in homes.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
holes*.
<gq>
in homes.
<gq>
no, in homes. shh.
<devyn>
it's getting old
<alexgordon>
why take the (considerably) risk of possibly impregnating someone when you're not going to remember it afterwards?
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: patents aren't only to keep companies from dumping products
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
What risk? If you're taking much of a risk, then you're terrible at sex.
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: I meant to put R&D money in
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: drunk people are generally terrible at proper contraceptive usage
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Fluid-bonding is a wonderful thing. Medicine is a wonderful thing. Protection is a wonderful thing.
<devyn>
fuck I'm hungry but I'm waiting for my friend to get here >_>
<gq>
i mean...i guess if you're like blackout drunk
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Oh chili
<gq>
i've been blackout drunk all of once and it was really boring
<gq>
i browsed the internet and at some point went to bed
<gq>
not even any incoherent tweets.
<alexgordon>
I think we can all agree that a little tipsy is the best state to be in
<devyn>
the most drunk I've ever been was when I chugged an entire glass of some vodka mixed drink
<devyn>
honestly I didn't enjoy it that much
<devyn>
I was happy, but useless
<alexgordon>
devyn: but you're too young!
<devyn>
alexgordon: I have cool parents
<devyn>
only a couple of years off anyway
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
how old are you btw?
<devyn>
17
<glowcoil>
never been blackout drunk
<glowcoil>
been on the verge a couple times
<alexgordon>
you can buy alcohol in utah?
<devyn>
in non dry counties yes, I think so
<glowcoil>
the kind of drunk where you're in a room and have no idea how you got there and are basically obvserving yourself react to things
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: the utah jokes are spot on as always, keep it up
<glowcoil>
yes of course you can fucking buy alcohol in utah
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: you can swear in utah?
<devyn>
alexgordon: when I lived in massachusetts there were places you couldn't buy alcohol, completely seriously
<devyn>
I always found that strange
<glowcoil>
devyn: utah actually forbids dry counties, i just learned from wikipedia
<devyn>
interesting
<alexgordon>
interesting
<glowcoil>
because
<glowcoil>
counties "can't conflict" with state law
<alexgordon>
glowcoil: post that to /r/mildlyinteresting
<glowcoil>
probably more to stop more liberal versions of the laws from being enacted
<glowcoil>
but prevents dry counties nonethless
<glowcoil>
alexgordon: lol you can
<devyn>
“While state law does not allow for dry counties, laws designed to restrict the sale and consumption of alcohol are common in the mostly LDS (Mormon) state of Utah.”
<devyn>
also [citation needed] though
<devyn>
glowcoil: I love that the county in which Jack Daniels is produced is dry
<devyn>
ffffff so hungry, friend JUST told me that he's on his way now
<devyn>
lol
<purr>
lol
<gq>
finally went downstairs
<gq>
no burned family, no fire
<gq>
there were tacos
<gq>
and i have liquor
<gq>
so i'm just all settled in for the night i suppose
<devyn>
burnt meat in tacos?
<gq>
i have no idea if it was burnt or not
<gq>
i didn't look
<devyn>
haha
<devyn>
what, you didn't try to snatch one to eat?
<gq>
i could have but i'm in the process of getting intoxicated and didn't feel like dropping all kinds of taco innards in my lap
<devyn>
haha
<gq>
so instead i have....well they're not pizza rolls
<gq>
they have chicken and marinara sauce in them
<gq>
but the same basic concept.
<alexgordon>
gq: doesn't smelling burnt toast mean you're having a stroke or something?
<gq>
anyway a lot more manageable. i'm barely able to eat hard shell tacos without them exploding in my face when i'm sober
<gq>
alexgordon: it wasn't toast, it was definitely cooking meat scent...so, possibly, but i'm not really worried about it since it doesn't apply
<devyn>
alexgordon: oh I thought the smell was that kind of ozone smell you get when there's a lightningstorm
* alexgordon
watches TNG
<gq>
did any of you guy see the new star trek movie? i'm trying to decide if i care enough to watch it or not
<alexgordon>
gq: buy TNG boxset instead
<glowcoil>
devyn: oh i didn't know that
<gq>
alexgordon: i will take this under advisement
<alexgordon>
-best TNG trek
<purr>
TNGTREK IS BESTTREK
<glowcoil>
Her has made me realize that you can train an AI not only on outward stimuli as in "this is what the world is like" but effectively memories, like "this is who you are"
<glowcoil>
and I mean I guess that's what Markov chains are
<alexgordon>
-best jean-luc picard
<purr>
JEAN-LUCPICARD IS BESTPICARD
<gq>
heh
<alexgordon>
imo the new trek movies are classic hollywood rubbish
<alexgordon>
most of the budget spent on special effects, not much spent on good plots
<gq>
i enjoyed the first one
<glowcoil>
well i mean they're a lot more fun than the old ones i'd say
<glowcoil>
only seen the first one
<gq>
basically didn't see the second out of pique because of how much i fucking hate benedict cumberbatch
<glowcoil>
like, they're for an entirely different purpose and not groundreaking or anything
<alexgordon>
eh I didn't enjoy it :P
<glowcoil>
gq: haha
<glowcoil>
gq: why do you hate him?
<alexgordon>
I guess I'm just not wowed by special effects
<alexgordon>
it's like mythbusters right
<gq>
glowcoil: his fanbase, mostly...and i just think casting him as khan was a wtf on a scale of 1 to what what what are you doing
<alexgordon>
I liked the original ones
<alexgordon>
the current ones, bore me to death because it's explosions all the time
<gq>
the tribble episode of star trek <3 forever and ever
<alexgordon>
<3 geordi
<purr>
Let it be known that alexgordon hearts geordi.
<alexgordon>
the original glasshole
<gq>
also NOOOOOOOOO LEONARD NIMOY IS NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE LUNG DISEASE NOOOOOOO
Willox has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<glowcoil>
wow @ the end of supersymmetry on reflektor
<glowcoil>
also the middle section of it is at the end of the credits of Her
<glowcoil>
:p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Liquor
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want liquor. Gq
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Can I join you?
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: yep hop on over
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Code. Making. God. I miss *making* something.
<jesusabdullah>
I feel that
<glowcoil>
i want liquor
<glowcoil>
lol
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
also i have (by choice) a movie and (by necessity) lots of applications and emails and homework and studying in between me and making anything
<gq>
liquor for everybody~
<glowcoil>
haha
<glowcoil>
i need just some shitty clear+gatorade on hand or something
<glowcoil>
lol
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Gq: well, android is a bitch, so I can't send you the screenshot I was trying to.
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: x.x
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
But it's a cool grand, even, to fly thwrr . to my shock.
<glowcoil>
ELLIOTTCABLE: lol r u drunk
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
man i want human computer interaction to be like in her already :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi, all
<glowcoil>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fucking dog-mess in the middle of typing, sorry
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and now I have laptop so no more Android incomprehensibility.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gq: server sea its up
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
sez*
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: mkay! mumble?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yep it's clearly up
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not sure I want to play right now
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
just checked, since I was on computer
<gq>
alright
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
fed up because my spawner doesn't work for shit )'=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
put so much effort into the damn thing
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
dunno what I did wrong
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
would rather debug *real* electronic circuits, not redstone ones, if I'm going to bang my head against something buggy
<gq>
heh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hm, I thought I got this site here, but apparently not
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hence, I'll share it with the lot of you.
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: haha, yeah, i saw that a bit ago
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: d glanced up while i was browsing it and was like....wait. why are you looking at pictures of dudes? WHAT IS GOING ON
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
it's oh-so-excellent
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is he possessive? O_O
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I TOTALLY did not peg that.
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: no, he's referring to the fact that due to currently having no outlet for my liking for ladies, my tastes besides him tend to focus on women
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
OH that makes sense
PLejeck has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
oh my god it was a nuck
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
but now it is not
PLejeck has joined #elliottcable
<gq>
the notnuck has returned
* gq
pokes PLejeck with a stick
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
* gq
pets ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
on Minecraft, I suppose.
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: you didn't like...start a new server or something, did you?
eligrey_ has joined #elliottcable
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: i'm still having problems with it x.x
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuddlecraft.co?
PLejeck has quit [Changing host]
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PLejeck is now known as nuck
<gq>
ELLIOTTCABLE: and that would be why it's not showing as online. i had the wrong...url? address? thing? whatever
<nuck>
Fucking CuntServ won't identify me
<nuck>
ah there we go
<gq>
nuck: hit it with a stick
<gq>
-mumble
<purr>
gq: We're currently voice-chatting, hence may be untalkative in IRC. Join us: mumble://ell.io/ (Download: http://mumble.sourceforge.net/ … you may have to self-register in the client, and then re-log, before you can speak.)
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<nuck>
I'm miserable having to work with Ember.js
<joelteon>
ember sucks caulk
<nuck>
So much
<nuck>
I'm just trying to move an outlet from one template file to another
<nuck>
And it's exploding all over me
<nuck>
It's like all the undebuggability and enormity of Rails but without the actually working that Rails does too
<glowcoil>
i blame the fact that it's in js
<glowcoil>
though i haven't used specifically it
<nuck>
I would have to agree with that
<nuck>
Could also just be that Discourse is an asshole
<nuck>
Honestly this whole concept just seems disastrous
<nuck>
It has two MVC stacks layered on top of eachother
<nuck>
You've got the Rails stack on the server and the Ember stack on the client
<nuck>
As far as I can tell, Rails just renders like cheap 1996 HTML too
<glowcoil>
nuck: oh god you put more web into the web
<glowcoil>
gq: i'm liking this so far
<nuck>
What a tangled web we've weaved, glowcoil
<nuck>
Also words cannot express how much I hate vagrant
<glowcoil>
what's vagrant
<nuck>
The little scriptable VM thingy
<nuck>
That software projects often use to hide complexity
<glowcoil>
NOW I'M ALL MESSED UP
<glowcoil>
SICK AND TIRED OF WONDERING WHERE
<glowcoil>
WHERE YOU'RE LEAVING YOUR MAKEUP
<glowcoil>
gq: do you like tegan and sara
<nuck>
I assume purr still lacks a last.fm feature?
<glowcoil>
probably
<glowcoil>
nuck: what's yours?
<nuck>
My last.fm?
<glowcoil>
yeah
<nuck>
PLejeck, because Nuck was already taken
<glowcoil>
ok
<nuck>
And so was NuckChorris and NuckChorris0
<nuck>
So basically every name I wanted
<glowcoil>
haha
<nuck>
Your musical compatibility with micahjohnston is SUPER
<nuck>
Good taste :3
<nuck>
oooh baths
<glowcoil>
haha
<nuck>
Did you hear that they did the Bee and Puppycat soundtrack?
<glowcoil>
oh man i love baths so much
<glowcoil>
oh I did not
<glowcoil>
that's crazy
<nuck>
Have you seen that cartoon?
<glowcoil>
yeah
<nuck>
The pilot?
<glowcoil>
cute
<nuck>
All that music is baths, which makes a *lot* of sense
<glowcoil>
yeah
<glowcoil>
also have you heard geotic
<glowcoil>
his ambient stuff
<nuck>
geotic?
<nuck>
I have not
<glowcoil>
it's all free
<glowcoil>
beautiful
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<nuck>
Baths ambient side project – Geotic
<nuck>
Wait seriously
<nuck>
So basically ambient baths
<nuck>
Count me the fuck in
<glowcoil>
yeah it's incredible
<nuck>
... please tell me its not this angel fire site
<nuck>
It is
<glowcoil>
haha
<nuck>
This guy uses Angelfire what
<glowcoil>
well he put it up originally a long time ago
<glowcoil>
:p
<nuck>
I'm not sure what shocks me more: that he used angel fire or that angel fire is still around
<glowcoil>
yeah :p
<glowcoil>
wait actually pretty recent
<glowcoil>
well idk haha
<glowcoil>
i like how it's just text and some .zips
<nuck>
Most recently from 2011
<nuck>
Personally my favorite music hosting site is BandCamp
<glowcoil>
well yeah
<nuck>
Just because of how simple it is
<glowcoil>
definitely really nice from an artist's perspective too
<glowcoil>
but yeah i like how just-text-and-zips this is
<nuck>
>I do not eat breakfast. Please do not ask me any questions about what I will do breakfast. Please just do not bring it up.
<nuck>
BREAKFAST MAKES HIM REALLY REALLY TESTY
<nuck>
DONT MENTION IT
<gq>
it's a controversial subject i guess
<nuck>
Yeah Breakfast is kinda like the holocaust
<nuck>
Incidentally, gq, wanna offend lots of people with me?
<gq>
nuck: depends. how?
<nuck>
I wanna make an Auschwitz Tycoon game where you play as the commander of an internment camp and you get to allot resources to various things (storage of jews, burning of jews, labor from jews, etc.)
<nuck>
And you have to manage the rail schedules and such
<nuck>
:D
<gq>
oh my god absolutely no
<gq>
lol
<purr>
lol
<nuck>
You sure?
<gq>
you should make it though just so i can tell people i knew you way back when
<nuck>
I'm pretty sure this would be the most offensive thing ever
<gq>
:P
<nuck>
hahaha
<nuck>
ooh ooh
<gq>
i had a coworker tell me that once
<nuck>
Or I could pun on Zoo Tycoon
<nuck>
Jew Tycoon
<gq>
i was explaining this quirk i have where i freak out if i get water on my nose in the shower
<gq>
and he was like aw, that's cute
<gq>
i'll tell that to the reporters who come to talk to me after you finally lose it and go postal
<gq>
i'm like er...thank you...
<nuck>
hahahaha
<nuck>
oh man
gq has quit []
<joelteon>
you guys wanna help me with something neat
<nuck>
glowcoil: Thanks for the geotic recc this shit is great
<nuck>
I always felt baths' vocals were a bit strained but the music was so pretty
<glowcoil>
yeah he's not a virtuosic singer
<glowcoil>
but the songwriting on obsidian is absolutely incredible
<nuck>
They did the ending theme and that song bmo loves
<glowcoil>
oh the ending theme is cute
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<devyn>
glowcoil: describe to me your ideal data storage system (filesystem equivalent) for an operating system that should ideally be compatible with C but not POSIX
<devyn>
I need more ideas
<devyn>
:D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi all
<whitequark>
ohai
<whitequark>
devyn: >compatible with C but not POSIX
<whitequark>
what do you even mean
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
wat
<devyn>
whitequark: stdio.h should be possible, but I don't care about POSIX structural compatibility
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
a wild whitequark appears!
<whitequark>
devyn: ah
<whitequark>
but no one uses stdio
<devyn>
portable C programs do, of which there aren't many
<whitequark>
anyway, stdio is possible even in avr-libc and shit
<whitequark>
so it's not like you're going to have any problems
<whitequark>
oh, filesystem
<whitequark>
so you need unique string identifiers without zero bytes addressing mutable entries
<devyn>
yes
<devyn>
not a whole lot to ask
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
stdio <3
<devyn>
whitequark: the reason I added that restriction though was that knowing micah, he'd probably come up with something like "make the operating system a pure function over time" ;)
<devyn>
well, not probably, but it's a possibility
<glowcoil>
devyn: idk you persuaded me that tags are bad
<glowcoil>
devyn: feels like no common file system gets frustrating for doing things like programming but
<glowcoil>
devyn: i'm a big fan of iphones and ipads and the computers in the movie her
<glowcoil>
devyn: so i feel like it can largely be simplified into probably program-specific databases mostly, with bins for documents of some kind
<glowcoil>
like which may in the end be hierarchical, idek
<glowcoil>
but
<glowcoil>
i feel like an os doesn't have to live in a file system and i like databases
<whitequark>
this whole "FS as a database" discussion feels a lot like the forth one
<whitequark>
yeah, they both solve simple problems rather neat. then you take a step in real world and, whoa.
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<glowcoil>
whitequark: what i'm saying is that iphones and ipads have worked *great* in the real world for quite some years now
<glowcoil>
whitequark: sure we don't do dev on them and offices don't tend to use them but
<whitequark>
exactly
<glowcoil>
i would argue that a good portion of the latter is due to inertia (both costwise and IT tools wise)
<glowcoil>
not exactly
<glowcoil>
and, dev could be made good on an ipad
<devyn>
whitequark: didn't stop MS from trying to do that though. see WinFS. but they didn't really design it well from a UX point of view
<devyn>
so it failed
<whitequark>
they nail a very tiny sweet spot
<glowcoil>
like, the ipad's interaction paradigms could make for some much more natural programming interfaces
<glowcoil>
like
<glowcoil>
i feel like you are not going to believe me no matter what
<glowcoil>
that
<glowcoil>
non-text-editors + hierarchical file systems and .txts are good for any "real life work"
<nuck>
Oh man WinFS
<nuck>
I wanted WinFS
<nuck>
so much
<nuck>
:(
<whitequark>
yeah, various incarnations of graphical programming utterly failing for four decades at this point is another example of the same thing
<devyn>
I will check up on this in the morning. gotta sleep.
<glowcoil>
well all graphical programing systems I've seen look like the team had never even heard the words "UX" or "interaction design"
<glowcoil>
and gave about 2 minutes' thought to the actual concept and then just started coding away
<devyn>
quartz composer is pretty shit and it's Apple
<glowcoil>
you need someone with feet firmly planted in both camps
<whitequark>
glowcoil: so. ok
<whitequark>
glowcoil: a million bucks idea, go design one now
<whitequark>
it's potentially really useful
<whitequark>
I'm serious
<glowcoil>
devyn: yeah well it's not at all intended to be general-purpose, still build around the keyboard-and-mouse paradigm, and not designed by people who want to program full apps with it
<devyn>
yeah whitequark and I were even considering doing it
<devyn>
for a trader
<glowcoil>
i want to make a zoomy, pretty, natural-to-use circuity reactive langauge for use on the ipad
<glowcoil>
that auto-structures your code
<glowcoil>
and you can view your code for instance as
<glowcoil>
everything that depends on this
<glowcoil>
or
<glowcoil>
everything that this depends on
<glowcoil>
a lot of effort into filtering what you're looking at
<glowcoil>
too bad i don't have an ipad
<nuck>
Sounds almost like sim-antics from what little I remember of that
<devyn>
sometimes I just want to see it as text though
<devyn>
and it's kind of hard to translate meaningfully
<glowcoil>
ugggggh it's wires on a grid
<glowcoil>
fuck that shit
<glowcoil>
i don't want a grid
<glowcoil>
the graphical representation will just be an unalterable reflection of the truths beneath
<glowcoil>
you could also display it as text probably if you really wanted to
<whitequark>
glowcoil: I mean really, go for it
<whitequark>
if you think you can make it awesome, 100% do it
<devyn>
glowcoil: sketch! sketch! sketch! then post here. please. I really love your ideas most of the time and I'm sure you could do something neat
<glowcoil>
devyn: thanks i definitely will
<glowcoil>
it's almost 2am and i'm writing sorting algorithms for CS class haha
<devyn>
haha
<glowcoil>
so it's not happening tonight
<devyn>
okay
<whitequark>
I'm not religiously opposed to graphical programming and such, I just never seen anything that works
<devyn>
I will remind you though
<whitequark>
one thing that is close and works right today
<whitequark>
AST-aware diff
<nuck>
Oh god whitequark you gave me flashbacks to the Peter language
<whitequark>
it's not technically graphical but it's the same underlying idea
* nuck
shudders
<whitequark>
if you know what I mean
<glowcoil>
i want to move computers towards Her
<glowcoil>
effortless interaction
<nuck>
I want to move computers towards me being a computer
<whitequark>
so, ads integrated into life
<nuck>
Humans suck
<whitequark>
?
<devyn>
glowcoil: I'm working for this startup kinda and entrepreneur guy wants the same thing
<glowcoil>
whitequark: have you seen Her?
<whitequark>
no
<whitequark>
but I've looked around
<devyn>
glowcoil: I want to see it so I can agree with him lol
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
there aren't many ads
<whitequark>
and we need *less* integration with computing
<whitequark>
not more
<glowcoil>
the only ad in the movie is on an ad-designated screen out in the public space
<whitequark>
less, in better places
<whitequark>
glowcoil: *in the movie*
<devyn>
whitequark: that's kind of the idea, from what I've heard. less distracting but more assistive
<glowcoil>
whitequark: her has less computers in better places
<glowcoil>
a lot of it is because of better voice interfaces
<whitequark>
lol voice interfaces
<glowcoil>
which is at the same time close and far away
<nuck>
I don't like voice interfaces at all
<whitequark>
another thing that works mainly in imagination of their designers
<nuck>
^
<glowcoil>
siri works incredibly well compared to what was available before it came out
<nuck>
Personally I think the future of design right now is headed towards augmented reality
<glowcoil>
like your scorn of voice interfaces would seem absurd to someone from the 70s who was just introduced to siri and watson
<nuck>
In which case we need to start thinking of how to apply UX of 2D space into 3D space
ChanServ changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #FRINGEIDEAS
<nuck>
lol
<nuck>
glowcoil: Yes but that's mostly because of novelty
<glowcoil>
nuck: well a siri-sized leap forward from siri
<glowcoil>
would be a pretty nice system
<nuck>
I guess
<nuck>
Personally I just don't like voice controls
<glowcoil>
also i feel like the ML techniques that eveyrone is focusing on are kind of barking up the wrong tree maybe?
<nuck>
At all
<whitequark>
a huge overlooked aspect of siri and watson is
<glowcoil>
sure there are lots of data points in a brain but i think we need a better structure for it, not just shit tons of it
<whitequark>
both are centralized systems controlled by a single entity
<nuck>
I'm much faster just typing a command into my CLI or quickly navigating a touch menu than I am explaining what I need
<glowcoil>
nuck: CLIs are a fucking joke
<whitequark>
I think even today's google maps is Wrong (and OsmAnd, performing everything or most things offline is Right)
<glowcoil>
and anyond who likes them has stockholm syndrome
<nuck>
CLIs have a shit learning curve
<whitequark>
glowcoil: thought-terminating cliche
<nuck>
But once you know all the commands for a CLI it's pretty handy
<whitequark>
CLIs are high-effort and high-reward
<nuck>
A GUI is often slower but easier to get into
<glowcoil>
I haven't done a whole lot in bash that I couldn't do just as easily out of it
<whitequark>
I see you never renamed a hundred of files manually
<nuck>
^
<glowcoil>
and if we focused on having more powerful UI tools with a higher glass ceiling
<nuck>
I had to rename something like 300 files into a serial set while maintaining extensions
<whitequark>
sure, you could use a GUI tool. it means someone has to write, package, sell that tool to you
<glowcoil>
i feel that everyone's lives would be better
<whitequark>
a ton of wasted effort
<glowcoil>
whitequark: well bash has a parser and shit
<glowcoil>
just as much "writing, packaging, and selling"
<glowcoil>
we just need to make guis easier
<glowcoil>
gui libraries are also a joke
<nuck>
I thin what really makes CLI better than GUI for some things is that you can attach tools together easier, and you have a bit more control
<whitequark>
glowcoil: but bash covers much more possibilities
<whitequark>
a GUI renamer does one thing. bash does all the things!
<glowcoil>
tha'ts exactly my point
<glowcoil>
i don't want a "gui renamer"
<whitequark>
GUIs are like bureaucracy, you have a set of predefined interactions and you have to follow them
<glowcoil>
i want a gui with a higher glass ceiling so there's no separation between user interaction and programming
<whitequark>
CLIs are like human interaction
<whitequark>
you're so going to be disgusted by this analogy
<nuck>
CLIs you get to reinvent your wheel to work the way you want
<glowcoil>
yeah i'm holding in the disgust haha
<nuck>
GUIs are not as *adaptable*
<whitequark>
I'd say it as "malleable"
<whitequark>
a good UI must be malleable
<glowcoil>
I know exactly what point you are making
<nuck>
Yeah
<glowcoil>
and my point is that a better gui will be malleable
<whitequark>
glowcoil: then again, go and fucking do it
<whitequark>
and I will be really happy about it
<nuck>
I like this market segmentation thing personally
<whitequark>
and a ton of other people
<whitequark>
do a silly prototype over sdl, whatever, just make it already
<whitequark>
because it would be *great*
<nuck>
If you need a "good gui library" just use Qt or some shit
<whitequark>
nuck: you
<whitequark>
*you're missing the point
<nuck>
am I?
<whitequark>
Qt is not malleable at all
<nuck>
oh well of course not
<whitequark>
it's just a less shitty way to perform same old 1970 xerox parc concepts
<nuck>
Yeah but rewiring the past 40 years of learning is tough
<nuck>
It's just what we've always used, changing it is harder than dealing with it
<glowcoil>
i feel like *everything* should be like that
<whitequark>
nuck: because other concepts don't offer enough benefit
<glowcoil>
like, every UI control should be able to be
<whitequark>
malleable UI would potentially be amazing
<glowcoil>
right-click, control via this
<glowcoil>
though probably not right click because fuck mice
<whitequark>
glowcoil: linking to a 56-minute talk is definitely what makes your point across
<whitequark>
*takes
<glowcoil>
whitequark: i was just asking if you'd seen it
<whitequark>
I fucking hate screencasts, now I have to dedicate all my attention to it for 56 fucking minutes to get one paragraph of information
<nuck>
whitequark: It's not that they don't offer benefit, they do. It's just that even with benefits and great ones at that, people won't change
<glowcoil>
whitequark: if you hadn't i tried to convey what i liked about it in a couple messages
<whitequark>
I'm not really directing rage at you
<nuck>
People hate change
<nuck>
And people are fucking stupid
<glowcoil>
whitequark: ok :p
<whitequark>
nuck: benefits of dvorak&co are more religious
<whitequark>
if you have evidence indicating otherwise I'd like to see it
<glowcoil>
dvorak is a *tiny* benefit over qwerty
<whitequark>
exactly
<nuck>
Yeah but there's keyboards which are actually benefitial
<glowcoil>
for a *huge* amount of effort
<glowcoil>
like in the end you're still touch-typing on a grid of buttons
<glowcoil>
with 1% less wrist strain and 1% higher speed
<nuck>
Colemak and Workman both seem a hell of a lot more promising than Dvorak
<glowcoil>
there's no qualitative leap in experience
<whitequark>
glowcoil: okay so what about that talk
<whitequark>
tell me pls
<glowcoil>
whitequark: basically it's like
<glowcoil>
it's closer to programming than to modern uis so it's not ready
<glowcoil>
but like
<glowcoil>
say you have a tuple of values
<glowcoil>
it gets shown as two+ panes of visualizations of that avlue
<glowcoil>
say you have a function
<glowcoil>
it gets shown as two panes vertically stacked, the top one manipulable
<glowcoil>
(tuples are horizaontally stacked)
<glowcoil>
and with currying, since this is haskell, you just vertically stack more for multiple argument functions
<whitequark>
immediate question, what if I have an enterprise system with about 10MLOC of code
<whitequark>
and the corresponding amount of entities
<glowcoil>
that's what i meant by not ready
<glowcoil>
there's no system for modularity or selectively viewing parts
<whitequark>
is it conceptually or imlementation-wise not ready?
<glowcoil>
well it aims low since it's a proof of concept
<whitequark>
then as much as it pains me to say it, it's just as... problematic as previous 40 years of failed ideas
* glowcoil
sighs
<whitequark>
imo scale is the #1 problem such an environment must solve
<whitequark>
well, PLs in general. programming in the large and all that
<glowcoil>
right, that's the main insight i thinki have
<glowcoil>
filtering of information
<glowcoil>
selectively showing you the things you want to see
<whitequark>
shoot
<glowcoil>
like, for one thing, view all things that depend on this value
<glowcoil>
and then their dependencies like fade off
<glowcoil>
like
<glowcoil>
wires that fade off
<glowcoil>
and if there are too many then there's some way to show that and you filter it further
<glowcoil>
or it scrolls really far
<glowcoil>
it's like code bubbles or smalltalk showing methods as individual windows
<whitequark>
mmm
<whitequark>
do you have any examples of similar technique outside of computing?
<glowcoil>
hm
<whitequark>
other disciplines struggled with scale as well. engineering (the paper&ink one)
<glowcoil>
feels like libraries got as good as they could with paper
<glowcoil>
where instead of being able to bring up a list, you can follow a number like a link
<glowcoil>
my idea is like an immediate visual version of that
<glowcoil>
most media don't allow you to filter them
<glowcoil>
that basically requires an interactive thing like a computer
<glowcoil>
like, video or audio or text are all just a linear, static thing you can observe
<glowcoil>
so indices in books are about the best you can do
<glowcoil>
minimize brain-effort required to go from one thing to another
<glowcoil>
but i mean
<glowcoil>
google is effectively this to the internet
<glowcoil>
what is the #1 problem with the internet
<glowcoil>
not finding enough things
<glowcoil>
but finding only the things you want
<glowcoil>
hm i think math gives insight
<glowcoil>
the further you get into math classes, the more you realize that
<glowcoil>
there are these platonic truths and structures and shapes
<glowcoil>
that any given notation, or even beyond notation, any mathematical "object", only embodies one form of
<whitequark>
ooooh yes, math is a good reference for this
<glowcoil>
so you embrace the plurality and tame it via symmetry groups and properties like associativity and shit
<whitequark>
I mean that seriously
<whitequark>
but
<whitequark>
for a layman, math is about as horrible as it gets
<whitequark>
for some reasons
<glowcoil>
yes, i would say that:
<whitequark>
so while I'd embrace the fuck out of it idk if it can fly
<glowcoil>
if you could touch and move around math
<glowcoil>
it woudl not be nearly as horrible
<glowcoil>
my idea is all about giving notations and visualization that you can use human intuition about e.g. physical objects' behavior to gain a handle on
<glowcoil>
math objects only move in your head
<glowcoil>
you have to parse the page, let them move, and spit out a new page for new truths
<glowcoil>
an interactive system like a computer lets you make the parsing and spitting out processes much more intuitive and require much less upfront learning curve
<glowcoil>
humans are built to learn how turning this dial changes this output
<whitequark>
physical analogues are shitty
<glowcoil>
albeit in the form of dials like "loudness of voice"
<whitequark>
you end up fucking up your domain abstractions in favor of some intuitive shit
<whitequark>
which is not actually intuitive to a domain expert
<glowcoil>
but like, being an expert at something means knowing how to manipulate independent variables to obtain particular changes in dependent variables
<glowcoil>
so you want to make the connection between the two immediately observable
<glowcoil>
to accelerate the process
<whitequark>
I dunno if a physical analogy works here
<glowcoil>
like, making computer music would be hell if
<whitequark>
I think it does not
<glowcoil>
you had to change a number in a txt file, recompile, and relisten to your whole song
<glowcoil>
rather than
<glowcoil>
while it's looping, change a dial and hear the timbre of your synth change
<glowcoil>
so, nobody wants text files
<glowcoil>
it would be absolute hell
<whitequark>
glowcoil: I wonder
<glowcoil>
the immediate feedback is immensely better and necessary
<whitequark>
best response to it I know: "you're talking about abstraction, but all your examples so far are entirely concrete"
<whitequark>
which summarizes why i'm not interested
<whitequark>
in general
<whitequark>
he has some neat domain-specific things like that game engine
<glowcoil>
how are the show-all-paths-at-once entirely concrete
<whitequark>
BUT it is absolutely domain-specific because:
<whitequark>
1) the engine fundamentally emulates a simplified version of real-world physics, because,
<whitequark>
2) the people for whom the games are written are best capable of conceptualizing such systems
<whitequark>
so again it's a very narrow sweetspot presented as a general solution
<whitequark>
show me something real. a simulation of, say, circuit, but not a fucking transistor and a led, but at least... let's say switchmode power supply
<whitequark>
built out of real components with real limitations
<whitequark>
THEN I'll be interested
<whitequark>
because it'd mean stepping out of realm of toys and highschool demonstrations
<glowcoil>
yeah i guess i feel that heavy duty engineering and things that require a lot of control over the user experience like games ultimately are above the glass ceiling for something like this
<whitequark>
it's not heavy duty engineering
<glowcoil>
although applying this kind of immediate feedback is great for manipulating specific parts of things
<whitequark>
it's one of the simplest useful circuits you can build
<glowcoil>
i know i mean just, physical engineering in general
<whitequark>
a model of an SMPS is a switch and an inductor
<whitequark>
and a capacitor
<whitequark>
three fucking components
<whitequark>
there's a fundamental problem I think you may be overlooking
<whitequark>
that is, all the intuitive visualizations and shit completely overlook the fact that for the majority of tasks, the user *must* establish a domain-specific abstraction in their head
<whitequark>
and it is the hardest part of all
<whitequark>
you will not succeed trying to sidestep it, too
<glowcoil>
i feel like twiddling the knobs accelerates the formation of that
<glowcoil>
like we're measuring it indirectly still
<whitequark>
it's mainly... a computational problem. our current architectures are utterly incapable of simulating even a single brain column on something less than a supercomputer
<glowcoil>
yeah
<glowcoil>
we should make hardware dedicated to it
<whitequark>
connectome, sure
<whitequark>
eh
<whitequark>
I'm not sure we can
<whitequark>
I don't think planar silicon process can accomodate for that kind of parallelism
<whitequark>
we need fundamental advances in microelectronics
<glowcoil>
ok
<whitequark>
a better substrate for x86 is so fucking far
<whitequark>
from being able to run a brain
<glowcoil>
i feel like the point of mind uploading is to not have it be in a substrate of its same shape
<glowcoil>
to exist in software
<glowcoil>
and just have massive but general purpose parallelism to run it
<glowcoil>
which yeah
<whitequark>
who says about shape? see, planar process requires your IC to be flat
<glowcoil>
is fucking far off
<whitequark>
2D
<whitequark>
and you can't map brain with its fundamentally 3D connectivity to a 2D surface
<whitequark>
not in a way that will allow it to transfer signals efficiently
<glowcoil>
well i mean if anything can access anything
<whitequark>
no, it's not quite that
<glowcoil>
make your only hardware capability be "calculate response of a neuron"
<whitequark>
see, all massively parallel architectures since their birth struggle with one thing
<whitequark>
interconnect fabric
<glowcoil>
yeah
<glowcoil>
yeah that seems to be true from what i've seen
<glowcoil>
the CM or whatever
<whitequark>
most of the brain is interconnect fabric which is amazingly efficient
<glowcoil>
topologies and shit
<whitequark>
and we are nowhere near emulating that
<whitequark>
there are recent advances in 3D ICs, Intel is interested in that
<whitequark>
but it's so insignificant yet
<glowcoil>
but like modern processors have a lot of "wasteful" capabilities like adding and dividing in arbitrary ways
<glowcoil>
you know what i mean
<whitequark>
no, it's not an issue at all
<glowcoil>
like instead of having a bunch of ALUs
<whitequark>
processor cores are the tiniest, easiest part of CPU
<glowcoil>
have a bunch of neuron units
<glowcoil>
ok
<whitequark>
what is hard is
<whitequark>
1) interconnect
<whitequark>
2) caches
<whitequark>
well, memories in general
<glowcoil>
blocking and shit right?
<glowcoil>
communication
<glowcoil>
getting things from place to place without interfering with other things getting from place to place
<whitequark>
in all various ways. mainly it's the fact that you want to do both efficiently
<whitequark>
and you have limited amount of silicon
<whitequark>
and you have lightspeed
<whitequark>
which is a huge problem in modern ICs
<glowcoil>
ok
<whitequark>
so making transistors tinier is a win in several various ways
<glowcoil>
what i mean is:
<glowcoil>
tell me if this is entirely stupid and misguided
<whitequark>
one of them is that you can pack it tighter, get a smaller chip, postpone lightspeed limit yet another time
<glowcoil>
a lot of the problem with interconnect/caches is like, everyone can write to memory
<glowcoil>
invalidating cache etc.
<glowcoil>
so like
<glowcoil>
just hear me out and then tear this apart
<whitequark>
lol ok
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
if each little tiny core can only write to its only particular neuron-value in memory
<glowcoil>
then that totally changes your picture of blocking, atomicity, etc.
<glowcoil>
each thing has one writer, forever
<whitequark>
that's basically NUMA
<whitequark>
see here's the thing, NUMA used to be really promising
<whitequark>
in a nutshell CPUs would have their local memory only them could write to
<whitequark>
and if another CPU really wanted to write it had to send a message to the owning one
<whitequark>
the problem with earliest NUMA implementations was that they weren't cache-coherent
<whitequark>
that basically meant you would go insane writing and debugging software for non-ccNUMA
<glowcoil>
could you be more specific
<whitequark>
all modern SMP systems (not multicore, real SMP with multiple sockets) are ccNUMA
<whitequark>
so it's already kinda like that
<whitequark>
glowcoil: where?
<glowcoil>
as in, people reading other people's private memories would have wrong caches and not know when to reread?
<glowcoil>
how many "cores" are in a parallella boards
<glowcoil>
board*
<whitequark>
currently 16 or 64
<glowcoil>
aw man
<glowcoil>
ringworms have 302 neurons!
<whitequark>
but that design could be scaled to basically infinity
<whitequark>
1024 cores is "trivial"
<whitequark>
but
<whitequark>
the problem is, it's a HORIZONTAL interconnect
<whitequark>
the time message spends travelling is equal to manhattan distance between nodes
<whitequark>
and that sucks hard
<glowcoil>
oh :(
<glowcoil>
well i mean messaging is pretty slow in the brain
<whitequark>
it's really not
<glowcoil>
so it's still a lot faster than that would be
<glowcoil>
?
<whitequark>
simplified: neurons fire at ~1kHz, any neuron can address any other one
<whitequark>
it's that last part which is key
<glowcoil>
what is the transfer speed though
<whitequark>
see, signal travel time in brain, afaik, can be ignored or nearly ignored
<glowcoil>
along a dendrite
<glowcoil>
why?
<whitequark>
in myelinated axons it's "really damn fast"
<whitequark>
microseconds
<whitequark>
so the limiting factor is neuron fire rate
<whitequark>
anyway. in brain, any neuron can address any other neuron in ~1ms
<whitequark>
even better, a bunch of them can do that in parallel
<whitequark>
we don't currently have an IC manufacturing process capable of producing interconnect with the same capabilities even on much smaller scale
<glowcoil>
ok
<glowcoil>
is it remotely feasible to have a disgustingly compilcated 3D wiring where there are direct connections from every neuron to every other one
<glowcoil>
haha
<whitequark>
i think going to a true 3D manufacturing process, where you actually have transistors in the bulk of material, goes a long way to that
<whitequark>
it's definitely not ideal but we could manage to do *something* with it
<whitequark>
it'll also revolutionize every other area of computing
<whitequark>
BUT
<glowcoil>
they can take literally a centimeter per second
<whitequark>
Further to this, in 1998, Hameroff made 20 testable predictions related to his proposal.[39] However, most of these proposals have been disproven.
<glowcoil>
hahahahaa
<glowcoil>
omg the fucking godel proof argument
<glowcoil>
minds are not fucking
<glowcoil>
calculators
<glowcoil>
in fact it is widely known that they are wrong quite a bit of the time
<whitequark>
idk I don't feel ok poking fun at the guy who provided testable predictions for his crackpot theory
<whitequark>
it's something to look up to
<glowcoil>
hm yeah
<glowcoil>
that is a good point
<whitequark>
sure he's wrong, but the vast majority of all theories are wrong
<glowcoil>
guess just quantum brain insistence makes me mad all around because so much of the time predictions are not provided
<glowcoil>
but yeah you have a good point
<glowcoil>
anyway teach me more of what you know about synapses :p
<whitequark>
uh I don't remember most of that shit anymore
<glowcoil>
membrane-bound and cytoplasmic proteins?
<whitequark>
hm yeah, that's one way to classify proteins
<whitequark>
if it makes a globule with hydrophilic residues around, it's cytoplasmic
<whitequark>
if it has interleaved hydrophilic and hydrophobic domains then it's membrane
<whitequark>
because the inside of it is hydrophobic and outside is in water
<glowcoil>
you majored in this stuff at university, right?
<glowcoil>
bioinformatics?
<whitequark>
no I dropped out
<whitequark>
but yeah
<whitequark>
bioengineering and bioinformatics
<glowcoil>
oh ok
<glowcoil>
man i've never felt more urgency to learn any particular thing
<glowcoil>
why the fuck am i double majoring in math and cs
<glowcoil>
i wanwt to keep the math
<glowcoil>
and ditch the cs
<whitequark>
well, your programming background would come extremely handy there
<whitequark>
like I was paid from year 1 by the dept
<glowcoil>
yeah but i don't want to waste time taking classes
<whitequark>
for writing fucking python
<glowcoil>
yeah i'm about to apply to a scientific computing/imaging department
<whitequark>
because apparently this facility is low enough on competent programmers to warrant hiring a freshman
<glowcoil>
where i have a friend who works there
<glowcoil>
and where they do brain things sometmimes
<glowcoil>
and i'd get paid on grant money if i got a position
<glowcoil>
so a lot of proteins are like
<glowcoil>
chilling right on the membrane
<glowcoil>
on one side or the other kind of?
<whitequark>
or on both
<glowcoil>
or all the way through sometimes
<glowcoil>
yeah
<glowcoil>
ok
<glowcoil>
cool
<whitequark>
that's the next level of classification actually
<whitequark>
which side they sit on
<whitequark>
and how much they penetrate the membrane exactly
<whitequark>
god this sounds so dirty in my mind
<glowcoil>
haha
<glowcoil>
i'm realizing one reason i dislike orch-or so much is that it's platonism as more than just a fun metaphor
<glowcoil>
like, platonism is a really pernicious attitude that gets applied to a lot of things harmfully
<whitequark>
you've lost me
<glowcoil>
like, the idea that there is a platonic right version of a song or a movie
<whitequark>
wtf "platonic"
<glowcoil>
platonism
<glowcoil>
vs formalism?
<glowcoil>
are you familiar?
<whitequark>
doesn't ring any bells
<glowcoil>
ok
<glowcoil>
so it's the eternal metaphysical debate about math
<glowcoil>
kind of a dumb false choice etc. but
<glowcoil>
is math a reflection of eternal truths that remain true regardless of our existence and awareness of them
<glowcoil>
or is it a game played with symbols in the mind
<glowcoil>
so platonism thinks there is a "platonic realm", however metaphorical, where there exist perfect, "platonic" circles that our physical CDs and 2d projections of baseballs and irises all approximate imperfectly
<glowcoil>
and every mathematical object or truthh is similar
<glowcoil>
and the mind has facilities for directly observing this realm
<glowcoil>
i mean few people have believed it in such an explicit form since like, 0 AD
<whitequark>
perfect holywar topic
<glowcoil>
yeah
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<glowcoil>
i mean it's kind of a stupid question to ask which of the two is the "correct" view since
<whitequark>
yeah lol you don't have to explain
<purr>
lol
<glowcoil>
it's a game played with symbols in the mind where everyone has the same rules
<glowcoil>
but yeah
<whitequark>
I've thought about this shit for a long time
<glowcoil>
we're on the same page here
<glowcoil>
anyway
<glowcoil>
people kind of have this assupmtion that everything is an imperfect reflection of an ideal
<glowcoil>
for instance everyday behavior *could* be morally perfect but we make mistakes
<glowcoil>
when in reality moral questions are ridiculously ambiguous
<whitequark>
>morally perfect
* whitequark
pukes
<glowcoil>
right?
<glowcoil>
i mean that's like the religious view, isn't it?
<glowcoil>
god acts morally perfectly
<glowcoil>
we make mistakes by deviating from his behavior
<whitequark>
yeah if you go on I'm going to smack you upside your head
<glowcoil>
haha
<whitequark>
will*
<glowcoil>
well the same thing happens with art
<glowcoil>
people implicitly discuss a song as if there's a perfect version somewhere
<glowcoil>
and we could improve it until it reaches that version
<whitequark>
that's... not at all how I think of art
<glowcoil>
when songs are like arbitrary sequences of stimuli that produce a particular response, and particular standards for whether different responses are desired
<glowcoil>
are often conflicting
<whitequark>
like not even close
<glowcoil>
well i mean it's a flawed view
<glowcoil>
describe the way you look at art
<whitequark>
a collection of tropes used to create an overall feeling
<whitequark>
sometimes you see a trope applied in a truly dumb way but it's rare and outstanding
<whitequark>
usually what I do is deconstruct it and enjoy the complexity of interactions
<whitequark>
like, I do that subconsciously/implicitly
<glowcoil>
right i've progressed in that direction
<glowcoil>
idk you seem to have though about these things pretty deeply and do not exist in the art world really
<glowcoil>
so i wouldn't expect you to have the same perspective on it
<whitequark>
define "exist in the art world"
<glowcoil>
like
<glowcoil>
there are people who spend their time listening to and making music and that's how they spend a lot of their thinking-time in their life
<glowcoil>
i interact with a lot of them on the internet since one of the things I care about the most is making music
<glowcoil>
and listening to it
<glowcoil>
whereas you definitely consume art but it's not your life
<glowcoil>
your life is sciencey/computery/mathey things
<whitequark>
true
<glowcoil>
it seems
<glowcoil>
and too little of the art world is mathematically/scientifically literate
<glowcoil>
sometimes it makes for more successful/enjoyable art since often being scientifically literate means you will try to apply an analyitical approach to making art
<glowcoil>
when good art usually results from becoming intuitively good at something and then letting the results flow
<glowcoil>
i'm not saying "sciene tells us to make art analytically"
<whitequark>
my approach to programming is wholly intuitive
<whitequark>
I'm able to deconstruct and analyze it postfactum to present the results nicely
<glowcoil>
i'm just saying that "people who are used to science will not appreciate the role of intuition in art often"
<whitequark>
but that is not how I actually do it
<glowcoil>
even though a deeper understanding of the brain etc. would make one realize that respecting intuition is necessary
<glowcoil>
etc. etc.
<whitequark>
I don't think of the patterns and shit, I just immerse myself in the domain model and let it fold in the way it wants
<whitequark>
and usually that produces pretty good design
<glowcoil>
right
<glowcoil>
but you have to admit that you're using different parts of your brain than someone making a good melody
<whitequark>
then you have to convince others. that's when analysis comes in handy
<whitequark>
admit? I have no idea
<glowcoil>
haha ok yeah
<whitequark>
like really no idea, plus
<glowcoil>
well having done both a lot I would say so
<whitequark>
the whole thing about parts of the brain is phoney
<glowcoil>
well yeah definitely
<glowcoil>
i'm not at all talking about "left brain" and "right brain" or some shit like that
<glowcoil>
i'm just talking about different approaches to problems
<whitequark>
yeah I'm not an art person so hard to compare
<whitequark>
I've to believe you here
* glowcoil
nods
<glowcoil>
it's interesting though, the type of abstraction that makes math unreasonably effective
<glowcoil>
is pretty ineffective at producing good art
<whitequark>
perhaps it is because math is ultimately about compartmentalization and separation of concerns
<whitequark>
and in art you want everything to be linked with everything else
<whitequark>
kind of ?
<glowcoil>
kind of
<glowcoil>
one thing is
<whitequark>
"math as we do it" rather
<glowcoil>
haha yeah
<glowcoil>
well math concerns itself largely with systems that can be tamed
<glowcoil>
relate this dimension in the domain to that dimension in the range
<glowcoil>
right?
<whitequark>
yea
<glowcoil>
like we talk about polynomials
<glowcoil>
a lot
<glowcoil>
because they're well behaved in a lot of ways
<glowcoil>
whereas most things in the real world are "boring"/"degenerate" from a math perspective
<whitequark>
exactly
<glowcoil>
so you can't learn the kinds of top-down knowledge you get from equations
<glowcoil>
so a trial-and-error plus intuition approach is the best way to get good results in such an environment
<glowcoil>
pull on mathematical methods in contained places
<whitequark>
"intuition" is just "massively parallel trial-and-error"
<glowcoil>
where you just want to maximize a contained thing
<glowcoil>
yeah
<whitequark>
performed on a model in your brain
<glowcoil>
yeah and the model is always simplfied but not mathematically interesting at all
<glowcoil>
looking at the coefficients in it will never be interesting
<glowcoil>
or insightful
<glowcoil>
it's just what fits the data points best
<whitequark>
yeah, this is why math people are pissed off by computer-generated proofs
<whitequark>
even if they're solid proofs you can't get insight from the methods
<glowcoil>
because they produce true results but not the most insightful ones
<glowcoil>
yeah
<whitequark>
it's just a bunch of nonsense happening to be formally sound
<glowcoil>
mhm
<glowcoil>
yeah i haven't had experince with that
<glowcoil>
but it sounds true
<whitequark>
read up on the discussion around 4-color theorem
<whitequark>
I've lost the link where I read that
<whitequark>
but you'll immediately recognize that article when you see it
<whitequark>
oooh I recall
<glowcoil>
one reason i want to mind upload is to infinitely expand the reach of my intuition
<glowcoil>
yknow?
<whitequark>
do you remember, there was some fundamental arithmetic property and a guy worked for like 10 years producing 5000 pages of his own highly specialized theory to address the problem?
<whitequark>
and it made news everywhere
<glowcoil>
oh yes
<whitequark>
so discussion around that is where I read about computer-generated proofs
<glowcoil>
but everyone was just starting to learn his framework
<whitequark>
the whole "proofs aren't paths from A to B but are the fundamental unit of communication for mathematicians" thing
<whitequark>
like, the social aspect of mathematics
<glowcoil>
yeah that's a very good point
<glowcoil>
because proofs are often useful in ways orthogonal to what algebraic replacements they let you perform
<whitequark>
exactly
<glowcoil>
definitely useful to know the four color theorem but
<glowcoil>
often it's the methods developed
<whitequark>
but it's 80 pages of Coq nonsense no one could make sense of
<whitequark>
okay, well, the thing is, we can manufacture fredkin gates in silicon
<whitequark>
but with our current planar CMOS process which allows us to scale chips massively, those gates are really not efficient at all
<whitequark>
right to the point where a conventional thermodynamically-shitty IC would be actually more efficient simply because it's simpler and faster
<whitequark>
again we need fundamental advances in semiconductor tech