<tabemann>
<cmtptr> don't let the door hit you on the way out, i guess < to hell with you, you libertard
<cmtptr>
what did i do?
<tabemann>
you're thinking about this in terms of legal rights and like, and it's unclear whether this was even within the rights of the person who sold it
<tabemann>
and it's also the specific phrasing you used there
* tabemann
hates that phrase
<cmtptr>
sounds like a personal problem
<tabemann>
to me at least it's irrelevant whether the supposed owner had the right to sell it or not; the thing is that its being sold is unacceptable, and the proper reaction is to abandon freenode en masse
<tabemann>
which is what the mods already have done
<cmtptr>
it was sold four years ago
<tabemann>
so what, the change of management is unacceptablee
<cmtptr>
why?
<mark4>
why?
<mark4>
i dont think management ever came in here and gave anyone directions
<cmtptr>
yeah, as long as the service continues to work, i really don't give a shit who's running it
<tabemann>
just because it was sold four years ago is irrelevant
<cmtptr>
you mentioned that
<tabemann>
the thing is that it was sold in secret, and now they've foisted new management on everyone based on said secret ownership
<cmtptr>
when are you getting to the part why i should care
<tabemann>
you really care a lot when it's suggested that one might have to pay a cent of tax to fund public services, yet you don't give a shit when the biggest FOSS IRC network undergoes a hostile takeover
<KipIngram>
That's what I'm still trying to understand here. What are we worried is going to happen?
<cmtptr>
again, there is nothing hostile about a purchase
<KipIngram>
I mean, are we worried we'll be censored? Are we worried they'll try to charge a fee? Are we worried they' push advertising on us?
<KipIngram>
Etc.
<crc>
- Those hosting the servers may not continue to do so under the new management
<tabemann>
^
<cmtptr>
seems like it's still working so far
spoofer has quit [Quit: leaving]
<crc>
- Andrew lee wants to bring VNC money, cash prizes for gaming, and extend irc into video chat and such
<tabemann>
the hosting is donated
<tabemann>
crc: that
<remexre>
it's suspicious when one's purchasing a commons
<tabemann>
yes
<remexre>
e.g. if pepsi bought a public park
<tabemann>
the moderation was volunteer
<remexre>
that's a bit of a head-scratcher at least
<remexre>
and if the whole parks dept resigns over it
<crc>
Those are my two main concerns
<tabemann>
if I owned one of the servers, I'd turn it off immediately, and join it to libera.chat instead
<tabemann>
because there is no way in hell I'd allow my server to be used for what Andrew Lee envisions
<cmtptr>
why, though?
<cmtptr>
is this anti asian hate crime that the news keeps telling me about?
<tabemann>
what
<KipIngram>
I assume each person who actually controls any of the resources will make their own decision about that. And that seems like it's how it should be.
<tabemann>
what does this have to do with asians (andrew lee may be asian, I donno, but that's irrelevant)?
<cmtptr>
i keep hearing that andrew lee is satan but nobody says why
<tabemann>
andrew lee wants to monetize a commons
<KipIngram>
Wait a minute.
<cmtptr>
you think i'm going to have to pay to be on freenode?
<tabemann>
<crc> - Andrew lee wants to bring VNC money, cash prizes for gaming, and extend irc into video chat and such
boru` has joined #forth
boru has quit [Disconnected by services]
<KipIngram>
There is no commons here. Every bit of hardware involved in this is owned by someone specific.
boru` is now known as boru
spoofer has joined #forth
<cmtptr>
tabemann, so you're upset that he wants to have a lottery?
<tabemann>
KipIngram: those people donated servers so that there could be a commons
<KipIngram>
They've chosen to let their property be used for this purpose, and they're the ones that get to decide what their property will do in the future.
<tabemann>
cmtptr: why would they have cash prizes unless money was going to be coming from somewhere to pay for them?
spoofer has quit [Client Quit]
<cmtptr>
tabemann, so i ask again: do you think i'm going to have to pay to use freenode?
spoofer has joined #forth
<tabemann>
cmtptr: probably not that simple, but it's clear they'll find some way of monetizing it
<KipIngram>
When these people donated these servers, I assume there was something they donated it to.
<KipIngram>
Some non-profit organization? Something that is actually a legal entity?
<KipIngram>
If so, then that entity has some influence and power here.
<cmtptr>
oh no! freenode might start generating a profit! HIDE THE CHILDREN
<KipIngram>
I don't.
<KipIngram>
We don't.
<cmtptr>
tabemann, are you on facebook or twitter?
<tabemann>
KipIngram: the service is donated, but they still own the servers themselves, so they can disconnect them and attach them to some other network
<crc>
Unless it's changed, those donating servers still own/operate the servers
<KipIngram>
Ok - so they've been donating the server time.
<KipIngram>
I'm sure they'll decide what they want to do here.
<crc>
Indeed
<cmtptr>
and if they decide to stop donating, i'm sure lee can find servers to replace them
<KipIngram>
As long as everyone's making those choices freely, we're golden.
<KipIngram>
I'm just gonna park in both places, and converse when the topics are interesting.
<tabemann>
the thing is I suspect servers will start disconnecting very soon, if the server owners act like the volunteer staff have
<KipIngram>
If I'm suddenly cut off from Freenode unless I write someone a check, well, then I'll be cut off from Freenode.
<tabemann>
I'm now on hackint and libera myself
<cmtptr>
tabemann, agree, i hope they are more professional individuals
<tabemann>
cmtptr: these are people volunteering
<KipIngram>
It just feels like there's some weird political angling going on here.
<cmtptr>
yep, and then they resigned in an incredible unprofessional fashion
<KipIngram>
I'm disinterested in the politics.
<cmtptr>
KipIngram, exactly
<tabemann>
if you were volunteering for something, how would you like it when suddenly someone decides to monetize it while you don't get a cent
<cmtptr>
well, since i'm volunteering, i can choose to stop
<tabemann>
it's different if you were a paid employee
<cmtptr>
i don't care that they resigned, it's the scorched earth resignation that i have a problem with
<tabemann>
maybe if andrew lee cared about what all the volunteers thought this might not have happened
<cmtptr>
maybe he did care and disagreed
<cmtptr>
just because you volunteer doesn't mean you own the place
<tabemann>
because he wanted to monetize it
<cmtptr>
again, you bring that up like monitization in itself is evil
<tabemann>
no, but you have the right to leave, e.g. because someone wanted to turn your volunteer labor into profit for themselves
<cmtptr>
are you fucking dense?
<cmtptr>
we literally just covered this
<tabemann>
cmtptr: no I'm not
<cmtptr>
i think you might be
<cmtptr>
21:39 < cmtptr> i don't care that they resigned, it's the scorched earth resignation that i have a problem with
<tabemann>
the whole purpose of the "scorched earth resignation" is to start a new network which is not controlled by someone who wants to turn it into profit for themselves
<tabemann>
which is exactly what they have done
<cmtptr>
which is why i equated them earlier today (before you were here) to those spammers advertising another network
<cmtptr>
to go from staff to spam in one day is pretty bad
<tabemann>
that analogy assumes that this is like any other network-spam
rtdos has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
proteanthread has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<cmtptr>
it is
<cmtptr>
some disgruntled users have decided to attack the network with advertisement for their competing network
<cmtptr>
why would anyone ever want to join a network run by those people?
<tabemann>
you act as if freenode deserves any sympathy at this point
<tabemann>
people should let people know about the new network
<KipIngram>
One thing I don't get here, tabemann. You seem to feel really strongly about this, so why are you still here? Why aren't you over on libera?
<tabemann>
if anything, mods for channels should start new channels elsewhere, and then notify the users on the old channels that the channel has moved
<KipIngram>
I'm just going to be where the conversation is.
<tabemann>
I am!
<KipIngram>
Ok, by why are you hanging out here?
<tabemann>
because not everyone has moved yet
<KipIngram>
I figure one channel or the other will just get a critical volume sometime in the next few days / weeks.
<cmtptr>
tabemann, so you're here to evangelize
<KipIngram>
I just want to chat about Forth. I
<KipIngram>
^
<tabemann>
cmtptr: I'm here because I prefer to be in Forth channels, and this one still has far more people
<cmtptr>
oh ok, so you're on the same page with KipIngram
* KipIngram
doesn't care what other people choose here...
<cmtptr>
i won't be joining libera. i'll move to another network if the conversation does, but i'm not rewarding this kind of screaming-at-the-sky breakdown nonsense
<cmtptr>
plus libera's main page color scheme is offensive to me
<KipIngram>
It all looks the same in console... ;-)
<cmtptr>
yeah but now that i've seen it, i'll always know...
<KipIngram>
:-)
* crc
just uses a grayscale display mode
<cmtptr>
hipsters
<KipIngram>
crc: So your monitor is all shades of gray? No colors?
<KipIngram>
I somehow imagine that as feeling "newspaper-ish."
<crc>
KipIngram: unless editing photos, yes
<crc>
It does feel newspaper-ish; I find it easier to read w/o color
<KipIngram>
Interesting. I may have to explore that a little.
<cmtptr>
crc, but how do you use colorforth??
<KipIngram>
:-)
<crc>
cmtptr: I don't
<cmtptr>
gap
<cmtptr>
gasp
<cmtptr>
i'm off for the night, keep freenode breathing until i get back
<crc>
Good night
<KipIngram>
Laters.
sts-q has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
sts-q has joined #forth
Zarutian_HTC1 has joined #forth
Zarutian_HTC has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
_whitelogger has joined #forth
_whitelogger has joined #forth
gravicappa has joined #forth
hosewiejacke has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mtsd has joined #forth
dys has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wineroots has joined #forth
dnm has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
dnm has joined #forth
proteus-guy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
proteus-guy has joined #forth
f-a has joined #forth
proteus-guy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
proteus-guy has joined #forth
proteanthread has joined #forth
rtdos has joined #forth
f-a has quit [Quit: leaving]
f-a has joined #forth
f-a has quit [Client Quit]
f-a has joined #forth
andrei-n has joined #forth
andrei-n has quit [Quit: Leaving]
f-a has quit [Quit: leaving]
f-a has joined #forth
kiedtl has joined #forth
kiedtl has left #forth ["// unreachable code"]
dys has joined #forth
Zarutian_HTC1 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Kumool has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
proteus-guy has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
f-a has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
proteus-guy has joined #forth
f-a has joined #forth
<cmtptr>
official statement now on freenode.net. long story short, it's not the entire staff and it's not a hostile takeover by satan. who would have guessed??
<f-a>
I suspect once everything is overt there will be more infos to judge and make a decision
<f-a>
a plethora of projects moved, which makes me suspect they know something that we do not (NDA?) but again, those are only suspects and I am sure pretty soon infos will drip
<proteusguy>
f-a, thanks. From reading both of those I see nothing that gives me any reason to leave freenode. I'll stay put until one appears.
<f-a>
yeah I can say I am uneasy with «new staff» and ownership shenanigans, but I need a clearer picture
<mark4>
dont let it bother you
<mark4>
unless they come in here and start dictating this is a non event
mtsd has quit [Quit: Leaving]
mtsd has joined #forth
<KipIngram>
I agree.
<KipIngram>
Hopefully we'll just not know the difference.
<KipIngram>
In the meantime it seems just as easy to me to have two windows open as one.
<f-a>
one of the pleasures of IRC
<f-a>
adding/removing servers is (mostly) painless
<KipIngram>
IRC is one of the few things around that's mostly the same as it's always been. A welcome change from the normal 21st century rip-snorting change on all fronts.
<KipIngram>
Just looking at the window is comforting to me.
mtsd has quit [Quit: Leaving]
mtsd has joined #forth
<KipIngram>
Hey - my new computer is out for delivery. Coming a day early!
<KipIngram>
Fun fun.
andrei-n has joined #forth
<f-a>
which one KipIngram I forgot
<KipIngram>
It's a Lenovo X1 Carbon.
<KipIngram>
16 GB ram, 512 GB SSD.
<KipIngram>
14", but they claim it's in a 13" package (thin bezel).
<f-a>
16gb , super
<f-a>
now you can run slack
<KipIngram>
Hahahahahaha...
<KipIngram>
No doubt.
<f-a>
(nice machine)
<KipIngram>
I hope so. My biggest concern is battery life - I'll be carefully assessing that.
<KipIngram>
I ordered it with Linux pre-installed; usually in the past I buy Windows and nuke it myself, and it always takes a while to get the Linux battery performance dialed in.
<KipIngram>
I'm hoping by letting them configure it that gets handled out of the box.
<f-a>
eh, always a thorny issue
<KipIngram>
First time I've ever bought one pre-loaded with Linux.
<f-a>
hopefully we will be both happy w/ our purchases
<KipIngram>
Yep. :-)
Kumool has joined #forth
dys has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dys has joined #forth
<cmtptr>
i bought a dell xps 13 pre-loaded with ubuntu about 5 or 6 years ago, that was my first time buying anything with linux pre-installed
<cmtptr>
blew it away and put my own install on it, anyway, but i appreciated having the official support
dys has quit [Quit: hrm.]
AlyssaXY has joined #forth
Zarutian_HTC has joined #forth
<AlyssaXY>
I just joined this channel from #gentoo-chat.
<cmtptr>
why
<AlyssaXY>
Because I'm interested in programming but I barely know how.
<MrMobius>
welcome
<AlyssaXY>
Thanks
<f-a>
welcome
<f-a>
why forth tho?
<mark4>
AlyssaXY, welcome to the mad house :)
<mark4>
do you code forth?
<AlyssaXY>
Nah
<AlyssaXY>
Programming is all bullshit to me because I don't know any.
<KipIngram>
:-)
<mark4>
AlyssaXY, forth was invented by chuck moore in the early 80s? and has a small following of dedicated nutcases
<KipIngram>
Well, Forth is a nice way to learn, but it's not really "mainstream," unfortunately.
<cmtptr>
forth is way older than the 80s
<mark4>
it is also used extensively at nasa and the fedex tracking system is coded in forth
<KipIngram>
More like the early 70's, and even that may be just "fully formed"
<cmtptr>
i'm pretty sure the first record of a forth program dates somewhere around 13,000 B.C.
<KipIngram>
AlyssaXY: Forth puts emphasis on simplicity.
<mark4>
and until general dynamics bought out vertex-rsi, 100% of the satellite tracking and signal mux/demux for direct tv was coded in forth
<KipIngram>
You feel "very close to the machine" when you write Forth.
<KipIngram>
It's excellent for embedded work.
<AlyssaXY>
KipIngram, ok.
<mark4>
asm is low leve, ADA is high level, Forth on the other hand covers the ENTIRE spectrum
<mark4>
it can be as low level as you make it or as high level as you make it
<KipIngram>
Yes.
<cmtptr>
"simplicity" in this context means "the language is simple in how it works," but not necessarily "simple" in the sense that it does everything for you out of the box
<cmtptr>
it does change the way you think about problems, though, and rewards you for simplifying your solution, which in general is a good thing
<AlyssaXY>
I would like to program something in x86 ASM.
f-a has left #forth [#forth]
<AlyssaXY>
I know quite a lot of 16-bit for a philosopher.
<KipIngram>
There's an assembler called nasm that's well-documented.
<cmtptr>
if he's running gentoo he surely already has gas installed
<KipIngram>
Ah, good point.
<AlyssaXY>
Nah I don't have the skills for Gentoo.
<AlyssaXY>
Slackware is my speed.
<cmtptr>
you still probably already have gas installed
<remexre>
think it's a dependency of gcc
<cmtptr>
yeah
<mark4>
AlyssaXY, actually i think gentoo is way easier than slackware :)
<mark4>
but i dont shoot down anyones chose of distro even if they are wrong :)
<KipIngram>
:-)
<MrMobius>
AlyssaXY, unpoular opinion but i dont think forth is a good place to start if you want to learn programming. it lacks a lot of modern conveniences and some of those are useful and make programming easier/more effective
* MrMobius
prepares to have rocks hurled at him
<AlyssaXY>
MrMobius, I just joined ##c
<AlyssaXY>
mark4, Gentoo is difficult as fuck.
<KipIngram>
I think the main reason you might not want to start with it is just that as I said, it's far from the mainstream.
<remexre>
I would say forth is a better starter lang than C tbh
<AlyssaXY>
I don't have the patience to wait an entire day for it to even install.
<remexre>
there's a lot of batshit insanity in C
<KipIngram>
Seems like C or Python would be good choices for "first learning."
<remexre>
-- a gentoo user :)
<AlyssaXY>
I learned a bit of C in '05
<KipIngram>
remexre: I don't disagree with that.
<MrMobius>
Python is a great choice for first learning. also just my opnion but I would much prefer C to forth as a first language
<AlyssaXY>
I learned x86 disassembler around the same time as I learned a bit of C. I'm a novice programmer.
<nihilazo>
I think forth is great to learn first if you want to program forth
<KipIngram>
Learning Forth, you will... know Forth. C or Python are more "like common languages."
<nihilazo>
but if you want your knowledge to transfer to other languages, you need to learn something else
<nihilazo>
yeah
<mark4>
AlyssaXY, i was a debian user for about 2 years before i switched to gentoo. i learned more about using and administring linux following the gentoo handbook on my first install than i learned in the 2 years previous
<crc>
I taught my older kids programming using Python, then moved them into C, Forth, and now working on assembly
<mark4>
but we get used to things and we settle on them
<mark4>
settling on slackware is good :)
<mark4>
crc how old are they?
<KipIngram>
crc: Good man.
<remexre>
yeah, if you care about doing "mainstream" work, I'd recommend Python; if you care about the sorta mathy-philosophy cool stuff, I'd try Scheme; if you want something that's simple and close to the machine, Forth
<KipIngram>
^^
<KipIngram>
That.
<nihilazo>
yes, that's a good summary
<crc>
mark4: currently 16 & 17; we started about two years ago
AlyssaXY is now known as Alyssa118
Alyssa118 is now known as AlyssaXY
<crc>
my third is just getting started; he's 10 iirc
<AlyssaXY>
I just joined #python
<AlyssaXY>
I don't know which is the best high level language to start with.
<AlyssaXY>
I can already do a lot with x86 ASM in DOS.
<AlyssaXY>
I wrote a graphics viewer one time.
_whitelogger has joined #forth
<AlyssaXY>
But that was when I was 18.
<mark4>
forth has a slight hump to begin with. its like learning the guitar, you start placing your fingers deliberately, then strumming, the moving your fingers deliberately, then strumming... you do this for a week or two and them BOOM your in a band :P~
<mark4>
forth is like taht
<mark4>
when you are learning it
<KipIngram>
I think I jumped that bump programming my HP 41 calculator in college.
<KipIngram>
When I turned to Forth I was already very "stack happy."
<KipIngram>
The HP was literally my "first programming."
<AlyssaXY>
Learning the guitar is difficult for me.
<AlyssaXY>
I wanna know a language that's more like piano.
<mark4>
piano is far less intuitive than guitar
<mark4>
to change key on a piano you have to know a totally new pattern
<AlyssaXY>
I'm a sensing personality.
<mark4>
on a guitar you use the same pattern, just shift its position
<AlyssaXY>
It's a nightmare for me. I can only play single-chord songs.
<AlyssaXY>
The piano is like C for me.
<AlyssaXY>
ASM is like the accordion or something complicated like that with a keyboard.
mtsd has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<cmtptr>
AlyssaXY, in my experience, it is impossible to judge a language based on the opinions of others. everyone has different interpretations of words like "simple" or "intuitive" or "portable", and it's very difficult to express exactly what you're looking for in a programming language uness you can boil it down to a specific use-case. i think you'll just have to try it and see if it jibes with you
<AlyssaXY>
I'm not sure I have the patience to learn a complicated language if what I want is to program a simple IRC server.
<cmtptr>
you don't have to learn the whole thing, just start with hello world and a day or two of picking up the basics and see if it tickles your fancy
<cmtptr>
if you want to do anything on linux, the path of least resistance will be c by far
<cmtptr>
or python
<AlyssaXY>
Cool, that's fair advice.
<cmtptr>
but python will teach you bad habits imo
<AlyssaXY>
I was already thinking probably in C first.
AlyssaXY has quit [Quit: Leaving]
AlyssaXY has joined #forth
_whitelogger has joined #forth
<KipIngram>
cmtptr: I think I agree with that - Python appeals to me because it's just so conveneint to hack out little fast tools. But that may be preciseliy because it tries to make everything easy.
<KipIngram>
On the other hand, I probably have tons of bad C habits too. :-|
* KipIngram
is not a software professional.
<cmtptr>
i also don't like python's c++-esque idea of oop
<KipIngram>
I just tend not to use that.
<KipIngram>
I use Python in a very "procedural" way.
<cmtptr>
but you kind of have to to use some of the libs
<KipIngram>
Well, true.
<KipIngram>
I guess my point, though, is that I don't really 'know' OOP well enough to know whether something is good, bad, or indifferent.
<KipIngram>
I've been trying to get some familiarity here lately with functional programming; maybe I'll need to do a similar dip into OOP sometime later.
<KipIngram>
The functional mindset is darn hard for me to get into - as a hardware guy most of the software I've ever written has been all about what it DOES to the hardware. I.e., all about side effects.
<KipIngram>
My recent dip into Lisp has been fun, though.
<cmtptr>
i started with oop with java in high school, so it's definitely shaped the way that i write software. even today i sometimes find myself writing c in a very oop-way. but imo oop is a gradient... there's "good" oop and there's "bad" oop and everything in between
<Zarutian_HTC>
KipIngram: oop with it class based is not worth studying. Object based systems that use composition are much better.
<KipIngram>
Makes sense.
<KipIngram>
Zarutian_HTC: Ok; I'll keep that in mind.
AlyssaXY has quit [Quit: Leaving]
AlyssaXY has joined #forth
pointfree has joined #forth
<ecraven>
any plans on also having a forth channel on libera.chat or oftc?
<remexre>
there's one on libera as ##forth
<Zarutian_HTC>
KipIngram: I have somewhere a small object system written in a variant of eforth and I had described it here so the public logs might have it
mtsd has joined #forth
<remexre>
yeah, the OO model I like is "abstraction is thru interfaces, interfaces have inheritance, objects don't, easy to 'proxy'/'delegate' methods"
mtsd has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<KipIngram>
Ah - computer delivered. Plugged it in to charge. Fun evening on the way!
<Zarutian_HTC>
remexre: the obect system I described didnt even have interfaces
<Zarutian_HTC>
basically, each object is basically: header, xt, references part, data part
<remexre>
ah, mine does dynamic objects, so it sticks an extra pointer on the top of each object
<remexre>
and has only interfaces, no classes
<Zarutian_HTC>
xt gets @executed with ( ... argx arg0 argn obj-ptr verb ) as the datastack when the object pointed at by obj-ptr gets invokef
<Zarutian_HTC>
invoked*
mtsd has joined #forth
<Zarutian_HTC>
and such invokee words are expected to leave ( ... resultx result0 resultn ) on the datastack
<Zarutian_HTC>
the gc happens only at end of event loop turn so I do not have to scan the datastack or such
joe9 has quit [Quit: joe9]
<Zarutian_HTC>
this uses a copying compacting garbage collector inside a circular object memory
<Zarutian_HTC>
gets around the 'only half of object memory usable' issue
lispmacs[work] has joined #forth
lispmacs[work] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Kumool has joined #forth
dnm has left #forth [#forth]
mark4 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
andrei-n has quit [Quit: Leaving]
mark4 has joined #forth
AlyssaXY has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
gravicappa has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
mtsd has quit [Quit: Leaving]
AlyssaXY has joined #forth
pointfree has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
Kumool has quit [Quit: EXIT]
dys has joined #forth
Keshl_ has joined #forth
Keshl has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
DKordic has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
proteanthread has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
rtdos has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
proteanthread has joined #forth
rtdos has joined #forth
wineroots has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]