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<proteusguy>
re: <KipIngram> Afternoon folks. The Forth is running on the new Linux platform. -- Nice going! Great when something goes as planned, eh? ;-)
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<proteusguy>
FYI - just had a productive chat with crc about the freenode vs libera split. You can see it here: https://biggestfan-event-images.sgp1.digitaloceanspaces.com/forthfreenodevsliberachat.png I'm quite satisfied with the conclusion reached which is that freenode #forth remains "authoritative and canonical" (as much as such a thing is possible amongst the forth community! ha!) and a bridge will be established between the two
<proteusguy>
systems so we become a federated channel, eventually potentially supporting other platforms and finally taking over the world the way Chuck Moore always knew we should! Please do speak up if you have other ideas or questions.
<siraben>
Gitter's web interface is pretty awful IMO, at least the Matrix bridge improved significantly last year
<siraben>
a bridge between libera and freenode's Forth channels would be great
<proteusguy>
Well the gitter thing is just me talking out loud. I may be the only one who appreciates it. ;-) crc is doing all the actual work.
<crc>
glitter is using matrix now?
* crc
hasn't used it in a few years
<siraben>
crc: gitter is essentially a matrix client now, they were acquired by Element
<proteusguy>
crc, gitter is supported by Matrix now apparently.
<siraben>
proteusguy: but wow, dead for 10+ years??
<proteusguy>
crc, if you go to https://gitter.im/ActorForth/community and scroll up until you see messages from siraben you can see how it appears in the chat when a Matrix connected user is in the channel.
<proteusguy>
siraben, yeah #forth was a ghost town for a LONG time.
<proteusguy>
I don't view this as "abuse" - the guy declared the channel as abandoned and so someone inside freenode stepped up to keep it going here. The level of entitlement that some people have over thinking they "own" something paid for and operated by someone else to the extent they can force it to end activity here and point to a competing system forever is beyond me.
<siraben>
I love that screenshot at the end
<siraben>
proteusguy: the previous staff would never grant themselves OP like that
<siraben>
and removed OP status
<siraben>
of the previous owner
<crc>
It's doesn't follow the normal channel expiry guidelines
<proteusguy>
Again - there's clearly a LOT of personal politics going on between the two systems that I think has spilled over in a bad way. I do not see any justification for the level of attacks against the freenode side, however. I've looked. I don't see either side acting in an ideal manner.
<proteusguy>
crc, yep - agree. But the situation isn't normal. The libera folk are clearly trying to damage and end freenode. No reason to support such efforts. If Libera wants to co-exist that's fine but they're not acting in a manner that benefits the general community despite their protestations to the contrary.
<proteusguy>
FYI - I don't know ANYONE in either organization personally.
<siraben>
the staff were so nice and prompt before, from my experience
<siraben>
especially in handling abuse situations
<proteusguy>
siraben, sure. Freenode is what it is thanks in large part due to them. But when they start attacking it and trying to end it, they give up any credit for that.
<proteusguy>
If I disagree with policies for a place that I've participated in my choice is to go along or leave and do it my way. But I have no right to attack the existence or on going operations of the prior community and those who might wish to remain. This is where they're crossing the line. Get back on the right side of that line and I would have no issue with the libera folk.
<siraben>
proteusguy: how are they attacking it?
<proteusguy>
siraben, lots of personal innuendo and vitriol based on a sense of entitlement that has zero justification. They copied all the content/config of the system whole cloth and then spammed the original making claims that it should be shutdown for violations against the community. Their intent is absolutely clear. There was no discussion/debate in advance of their departure that the community had any opportunity to participate in.
<proteusguy>
They just acted with malice and forethought because of personal issues with the people running freenode now. I've read ALL their justifications for their actions and claims against freenode and it just doesn't support their actions whatsoever. Don't even need to read the "freenode" perspective to see this and I'm sure they have other opinions and details that might be interesting as well.
<proteusguy>
ANYWAY - I definitely don't want to debate the issue here as it's distracting and not benefiting #forth. We could setup a #forth-rant topic if someone really cares about it. But I like the direction that our fearless leader crc is taking it and prefer to be neutral vis-a-vis freenode vs libera so long as their actions don't splash on #forth.
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<KipIngram>
proteusguy: Yes it is indeed great. There was a bug hiding in there, that MacOS was letting slide and Linux wouldn't. So it didn't *immediatley* work, and I was distressed. But the bug turned out to be completely unrelated to the whole syscall / ioctl business.
<KipIngram>
proteusguy: Agree with your comment on the "level of entitlement" 100%. I still haven't been able to figure out why the previous staff felt like they were "decision makers" in any way.
<KipIngram>
I think a lot of people are turning this into some sort of "crucible" of political philosophy. It's just a change of ownership. New owners make new decisions - that's just how it is.
<KipIngram>
proteusguy: The bug was in one of my cmove words (there are two, one bottom to top and one top to bottom, so you can handle overlapping buffers). One of mine was moving N+1 bytes instead of N bytes.
<KipIngram>
It looks like I did that on purpose, and I think it was to handle a need when I was coding EXPECT. But that was just a flat out mistake - that 1+ should have been outside the call to the cmove - not done by cmove itself.
<KipIngram>
When my error recovery system snapshots the system, it snapshots the entire memory region where the definitions live because the stacks live at the top of that and need to be included.
<KipIngram>
So that caused the +1 byte to fall outside the allocated buffer.
<KipIngram>
It's VERY GOOD that I managed to catch this - now it's fixed and all is well.
<KipIngram>
So the actual syscall/ioctl changes were as straightforward and mechanical as I expected them to be.
<KipIngram>
I feel kind of bad for ever putting that 1+ inside cmove at all - as I was figuring that out, I was like "What the hell was I thinking???"
<KipIngram>
In the header region there is nothing going on at the high end of the region, so error recovery only snapshots the in-use portion.
<KipIngram>
I perhaps should pull my stacks down into an allocated region contiguous with the other stuff, so that there's no longer the need to move that whole large region.
<KipIngram>
Or, even better, maybe I should explicitly allocate a "task" region which would contains the stacks. That actually paves the way better for multi-tasking sometime in the future.
<KipIngram>
My last Forth worked more like that - there was a 4kB task region. Held the stacks, a "stash section" for remember register values when the task is swapped out, and so on. A register always pointed to the now-running task (though my stack pointers didn't use relative addressing off of that - they pointed independently into that region).
<KipIngram>
If I do that, though, then I'll need to save that region as well when I snapshot the system.
<proteusguy>
KipIngram, off by one errors - classic bug for a classic language! haha ;-)
<KipIngram>
No kidding.
<KipIngram>
I was just a little surprised at myself, on hindsight, for deliberately introducing an inc instruction into cmove. That was OBVIOUSLY a wrong t hing to do. Oh well.
<KipIngram>
crc: So, we said a couple of things re: UTF-8 over the last couple of days. It occurred to me this morning that 32-bit and 64-bit systems are nice in that regard - you can hold any UTF-8 character as a TOS element.
<KipIngram>
So the "character oriented" things we've written over the years for ASCII could port in a way that remains "character oriented" with a little thought.
<KipIngram>
KEY and EMIT could both work just fine with UTF-8 items.
<KipIngram>
It would just be necessary to break the "character == byte" mindset that ASCII work cultivates.
<proteusguy>
yep - but lots of classic forth string handling assumes that. so definitely need to be utf aware type aware going forward (which is a good idea anyway).
<KipIngram>
I imagine it would be a tough habit to break, but I agree it's a good idea.
<KipIngram>
So, what is strlen(s) when s is utf-8?
<KipIngram>
Is it the number of characters, or the number of bytes?
<KipIngram>
I guess there has to be calls for both.
<KipIngram>
There are a lot of functions that relate to positions within strings that would face this issue, and depending on what you're in the process of doing there are good reasons to want to work with "character arrays" and "byte arrays."
<KipIngram>
I have the feeling you'd only need the bytes info at the lowest levels (like if you want to move the string using cmove / rep movsb).
<proteusguy>
strlen should be the number of characters, not the number of bytes.
<proteusguy>
sizeof<char> will be number of bytes.
<KipIngram>
That feels right.
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<Lord_Nightmare>
freenode just changed their policy document, removing the line about banning hate speech. I'm out. 30 days notice.
<siraben>
Lord_Nightmare: link to commit?
<siraben>
lol rasengan really making it easy to leave huh
<siraben>
giving more reasons to leave*
<mark4>
speach, even hate speach is a protected activity in my country
<mark4>
you do not have the right to not be offended
<mark4>
people are getting butt hurt and bent out of shape over protected rightrs
<mark4>
rights
<KipIngram>
I grew up hearing a cliche phrase: "Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me." I actually grew up believing those.
<siraben>
good to know unlawful activities are now not off topic!
<mark4>
removing draconian policy is someething im 100% for
<nihilazo>
why is banning hate speech draconian
<mark4>
this is a public forum, you have a choice to mute someone or leave
<nihilazo>
"hate speech" to me is like, inciting violence and shit
<nihilazo>
you can't truly defend that?
<mark4>
there is no reason for the service to dictate what an individual may or may not sya
<mark4>
say
<KipIngram>
Well, not everyone may feel that way, but as mark4 points out freedom of speech is a core tenet of American culture.
<KipIngram>
Those of us who are older still take it pretty seriously.
<mark4>
And FREENODE
<nihilazo>
well yeah, it's freenode's policy, freenode is privately owned
<nihilazo>
freenode have the right to say you can't say whatever you want
<siraben>
i take more issue with the removal of the illegal filesharing stuff being banned
<nihilazo>
if freenode banned the word "tomato", you'd just have to live with that. No violation happened there. Because you are using their platform
<mark4>
if i say something hateful to you, you can block me. YOU can place me on ignore
<nihilazo>
they choose what they platform
<KipIngram>
Yes, they do. But also the right to not say that.
<mark4>
thing is, they are REMOVING draconian rules, not instituting them
<siraben>
nihilazo: inciting violence is never ok, agreed
<mark4>
the draco socialists are the ones whose collective pussy hurts over it
<KipIngram>
Freedom of speech isn't a thing just people's feelings can be hurt. The idea is that difficult issues require difficult discussion. If you ban the discussion no progress can be made and no agreements reached.
<mark4>
i see no problem
<Lord_Nightmare>
the hate speech rules are still there but in a different document section now
<Lord_Nightmare>
and they cover everything they did before
<Lord_Nightmare>
i missed them the first read
<nihilazo>
yeah the chanserv thing is the problem for me
<KipIngram>
Oh, well, then this is a moot point, I guess.
<nihilazo>
the larger problem
<mark4>
not only do you NOT have a right to not be offended, i have an absolute, inalienable right to offend you
<nihilazo>
we should move to libera or something
<nihilazo>
freenode is a sinking ship
<nihilazo>
I bet it will not even exist a year from now
<Lord_Nightmare>
i'm already there
<mark4>
inalienable: not subject to alienation. cannot be bought or solde, NOT subject to transfer.
<nihilazo>
is there a #forth on there?
<mark4>
you cannot take it i cannot give it
<nihilazo>
I will join
<siraben>
Lord_Nightmare: i see the filesharing rules were moved
<siraben>
but the hate speech ones were deleted
<mark4>
i will never in my life set foot on that network
<KipIngram>
My understanding is that the ##forth on Libera is a "backup" of this channel.
<mark4>
not for one second
<KipIngram>
A bridge was mentioned.
<mark4>
THEY are the ones spreading hate and disinformation
<mark4>
they hate lee because he is a trump supporter
<mark4>
period
<siraben>
KipIngram: key word is invective
<nihilazo>
no, we hate lee because he performed a hotile takeover of freenode and caused all the staff to leave lmao
<nihilazo>
I didn't even know that he was a trump supporter before you just said it lol
<mark4>
you been drinkin the wrong coolaid dood, he did not do a hostile takeover
<mark4>
in fact he tried on many occasions to work with them
<siraben>
those rules ban insults based on inherent characteristics of a person
<mark4>
they were the ones burying their head up their asses
<mark4>
closing their eyes
<nihilazo>
I mean, literally all the staff who resigned called it a hostile takeover
<nihilazo>
I trust freenode staff with what happens to freenode staff
<mark4>
sticking their fingers in their ears and humming loudly to themselves
* KipIngram
just thinks both sides have gotten carried away with this.
<nihilazo>
more than I trust some random dude on #forth lmao
<mark4>
those who leave. good luck to you.
<mark4>
im staying here. i see zero evidence of nefarious motives from lee
<mark4>
the opposite in fact
<siraben>
the fact that some people on #forth are defending the removal of the hate speech rule with such intensity is very unfortunate
<mark4>
the random dood who created the channel you mean
<mark4>
everyone has always been welcome in this chhanel
<mark4>
my PRIME directive when i created it was that NO subject is off limits
<mark4>
other than trolling
<mark4>
and we suffered that for a great deal of time with certain individual
<mark4>
it was a LONG TIME before they were banned
<siraben>
it's not just about us, now harassment and attacks are not off limits
<mark4>
the only hate speach i see is the hate speach coming from those who resigned
<mark4>
/ignore ... . .
<KipIngram>
Lord_Nightmare retracted his comment that the hate speech rule had been removed.
<KipIngram>
We should drop that topic.
<KipIngram>
It was a mistake.
<siraben>
it seems removed to me?
<KipIngram>
Scroll back up - he corrected it.
<KipIngram>
It was moved.
<KipIngram>
He said the same behaviors are still banned.
<mark4>
kind of does not matter, this is a public, OPEN forum
<KipIngram>
Just a few dozen lines back up.
<siraben>
moved to where? I need to see in the actual doc
<mark4>
did he give a CLEAR, non vague definition for hate peach?
<mark4>
or can any disagreement be considered a bannable offense now
<KipIngram>
You'll have to get that from him.
<mark4>
void for vagueness.
<KipIngram>
Lord_Nightmare: can you clarify, so we can get past this?
<siraben>
Lord_Nightmare: i'm afraid it is not moved
<siraben>
but deleted
<siraben>
there's only 2 commits after that removal
<mark4>
so a "gentoo" "no ubuntu" "no gentoo" .... discussion is hate speach maybe
<siraben>
mark4: stop being hyperbolic
* KipIngram
facepalms
<cmtptr>
the chanserv thing is because channel owners relocated to libera chat and left their topics here to indicate that they were abandoning and relenquishing their registration
<cmtptr>
it is a fair response to assume the channel is abandoned
<siraben>
rasengan is very reactionary right now
<cmtptr>
yep, and the very creation of libera was reactionary
<cmtptr>
here's a thought: live and let live
<cmtptr>
more irc networks is better than fewer, imo
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<KipIngram>
Indeed.
<siraben>
reclaiming a dead channel name might not look so bad, but it goes against 20 years of Freenode convention, and the policy was changed retroactively
<cmtptr>
it's a developing situation
<cmtptr>
the circumstances changed, it is fair for the new ownership to change policy in reaction
<KipIngram>
You guys ever have a favorite radio station that suddenly changes formats on you? Yesterday it was classic rock, today it's country? It's been a while, but I have experienced that. Things change. Something existing in a certain way for a period of time doesn't make it sacrosanct. There's always someone in control that can choose to change things at any time. That sort of thing isn't "criminal," even
<KipIngram>
though if you liked it better before it might be disappointing to you.
<KipIngram>
There's nothing inherently wrong with such change. And there is nothing inherently wrong with people who are displeased by it going off and starting their own radio station.
<siraben>
it's late here, but I'm left with a bad taste of what's to come
<KipIngram>
This notion that freenode has some sort of holy spiritual identity / existence is just... well, it's false.
<siraben>
will see how it develops
<KipIngram>
It's a bunch of computer equipment and someone who owns it is changing what's being done with it.
<cess11>
free speech is about the relation between you and the state under which you are a citizen, it has nothing to do with you and any corporation or similar entity
<cmtptr>
free speech is also a concept
<cess11>
a corporation asking you not to commit crime through its services isn't about free speech, it's about ease of commerce or operation for that entity
<mark4>
what crime?
<cess11>
it was mentioned in a legal concept above
<cess11>
context
<cess11>
the text in the commit link is about unlawful i.e. criminal behaviour
<mark4>
legal concepts are open to interpreatation which is why Fred Rodell, a professor of law said "When a judge makes some legal determination based on some principal of law he is performing a slight of hand trick equal to when a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat"
<mark4>
saying what you think is only a crime to the socialist thought police that left this and went to create a new server
<cess11>
the law needs to be interpreted to determine how it is to be applied in a particular case
<cess11>
quite basic and calling it a magic trick is just confusing
<mark4>
cess11, i did not say that a harvad professor of law did
<cmtptr>
mark4, it still says that unlawful activities and related support activities are considered off-topic
<cmtptr>
er, cess11, not mark4
<cess11>
so
<cess11>
mark4: you brought it up, apparently you thought it was somehow profound or interesting, with which i disagree
<mark4>
cess11, it is profound, it is interested and it is relevant to what is happening here :)
<mark4>
but!!!!
<mark4>
you and I can disagree and i am not going to be hating on you
<cess11>
no, it's not, it's just a confusing way of putting a very basic thing about jurisprudence
<mark4>
i am VERY annoyed with the limi wristed idiots that have fragmented this community because their collective pussy hurts
<mark4>
cess11, it also happens to be 100% factual
<cess11>
seems you're the one that feels hurt
<mark4>
which is why judges can never agree on anything
<mark4>
annoyed that the community is being fragmented
<cess11>
show me one decision from scotus or whatever where none of the judges agree with one of the others
<mark4>
a community that has existed for decades is now breaking apart because a FEW butt hurt nobodies decided to throw shit into the fan
<cess11>
no, because a millionaire went bananas with his weirdly acquired property
<mark4>
cess11, scotus decisions do NOT need to be unanamous at all
<KipIngram>
Actually, no - it's because EVERYONE ELSE is letting themselves be sucked into the vortext created by those few people.
<mark4>
KipIngram, they still created it
<cmtptr>
he didn't go bananas, he was refused access to his property
<mark4>
cess11, have you studied law at all?
<mark4>
jsut asking NOT accusing
<cess11>
yeah but you said they never agree so there could never be a scotus decision in the history of the court
<KipIngram>
I don't disagree, but everyone fueling it is playing a part.
<cess11>
yeah, i've studied law
<mark4>
k
<mark4>
the supreme court is more often than not in direct contradiction with the supreme law of the land
<mark4>
for example. in order to be allowed to exercise your right to remain silent you must first state that you are exercising that right
<mark4>
that right has already been reserved. that ruling is unconstitutional
<cess11>
i don't think anyone wants to prohibit you from forming your own interpretations of the law but you'd need police and army on your side to have it applied in practice
<mark4>
also. the majority of them believe they have the power and authority to modify the original intent of the framers of the constitution simply by redefining the meaning of the words used to author that document
<mark4>
problem is. the police do not know the law at all
<mark4>
only policy
<cess11>
that's why courts then make the judgement
<mark4>
cess11, what state are you in btw?
<cess11>
sweden
<mark4>
cess11, the LAW says that onlhy officers who know the law can enforce it
<mark4>
aha good place to live! ive been there :)
<mark4>
but its too socialist for me. probably one of the most beautiful places ive ever lived tho
<mark4>
ever been to i mean
<cess11>
the law doesn't say anything since it's ink on paper, interpretations of it might however
<cess11>
if capitalism is too socialist for you i'd probably not want to live in your ideal society
<cess11>
sweden has been thoroughly capitalist and privatising for about for decades, depending on how one thinks about reforms in the seventies
<cess11>
four
<mark4>
understanding law means understanding history. at the time the magnacarta was signed it was merely reaffirming an ANCIENT constitution of which the englishman had been deprived of, not by the force of norman arms but by the art and finesse of norman lawyers the
<mark4>
the LAW is ancient tradition. not what is written down
<mark4>
law can not be repealed.
<mark4>
and the magnacarta is 800 years old.. that is old enough to count as ancient
<mark4>
it IS the law
<cess11>
physics might not but law surely can
<mark4>
you think if we had a statute against murder, the repealing of that statute would make murder lawful?
<mark4>
you miss understand what law is :)
<mark4>
law is settled. it is unalterable.
<mark4>
the constitution is *THE* law of this land
<cess11>
the athenian democracy is older than the magna charta, they had sex with children and considered slavery a foundation of society
<mark4>
and its interpretation is NOT one of the delegated powers
<cess11>
well then, abolish the courts
<mark4>
cess11, i WOULD abolish 100% of the lower pond life courts. they are not courts, they are RICO operations
<cess11>
sure, go ahead
<mark4>
would does not mean could
<cess11>
i think you'll find you need police force and the army as well as the banks on your side before you get anywhere
<siraben>
lol how did we end up here
<cess11>
i.e. what you think the law is doesn't matter, but power and how it interprets society and the law does
<mark4>
cess11, thats a very socialist view. i am not a socialist. i do not depend on my servants for everything - i do not call the cops i defend myself
<cess11>
no, it's a conservative view commonly held by jurists
<mark4>
siraben, rights
<mark4>
protected rights
<mark4>
call for a cop, call for an ambulance, call for a pizza. see who arrives first
<mark4>
the supreme court itself has warned people to ***N*E*V*E*R*** talk to cops
<mark4>
do not answer questions. do not provide documentation. do not perform tests.
<mark4>
relying on cops gets you dead
<cess11>
yeah, because they have more power than you do so it worsens your situation if you do
<mark4>
they do not have more power than i do that is a falsehood
<mark4>
how do they get their power?
<mark4>
delegated to them by the people
<mark4>
if the people did not have that power themselves how could they delegate it?
<cess11>
by having more guns than you do
<mark4>
the majority over the individual?
<cess11>
so if you get uppity you get buried and forgotten
<mark4>
cops cant hit the broad side of a barn at point blank range with a scatter gun in this country lol
<cess11>
well then, abolish the courts
<cess11>
just stroll in, throw everyone out, declare that law has taken over
<mark4>
actually i would not abolish the courts or the police
<mark4>
i would simply reset them back to their delegated authorithy
<cess11>
so you agree that jurisprudence needs institutionalised interpretation of the law and a repressive force to execute the application of those interpretations
<mark4>
read benjamin franklins auto for why they are a HUGE problem today
<cess11>
because that's what cops and judges do, and have done for millenia
<mark4>
cess11, judges should NOT be allowed to interpret the law. only juries
<mark4>
the only true justies is the justice that comes from the people
<cess11>
that's a distinctly socialist view
<mark4>
not from their overlord masters
<mark4>
a relaxation of government is an expansion of rights
<cess11>
more akin to anarchism than anything the founders of the us could imagine
<mark4>
removing the hate speach rule is NOT destructive because if someone says something hateful in here WE can ban him
<mark4>
or YOU can put him on ignore
<mark4>
no not anarchy
<cess11>
sure, and then the property owners can step in and throw you out for doing it
<mark4>
that would be draconian.
<cess11>
yes, it's a libertarian socialist view of jurisprudence
<cess11>
anarchist, syndicalist, that kind of thing
<mark4>
when the entire point of freenode is to be COMMUNITY driven
<mark4>
not overlord master driven
<mark4>
and i do not see lee imposing rules. i see him removing them
<cess11>
tell that to the us constitution and its view of property rights
<mark4>
he is not deciding for this channel what is and is not on topic
<siraben>
mark4: I see Lee arbitrarily changing rules without due process
<mark4>
siraben how were those rules instituted?
<cess11>
there is no due process in property ownership
<siraben>
go him
<mark4>
i saw nothing about them in here
<mark4>
i see lee as being a conservative not a socialist. conservatism is about limited government not absolute government
<mark4>
socialism is absolute government
<mark4>
and actually so is true democracy
<cess11>
this isn't governance, it's business
<mark4>
this country is not a democracy
<mark4>
cess11, the "United States" is a corporation
<mark4>
so again. you lack incite into what the law is
<cess11>
i don't but you seem quite naive and childish in your political views
<jn__>
"socialism is absolute government" -- not all forms, see Peter Kropotkin
<mark4>
and now were down to name calling
<mark4>
that sounds like hate speach :)
<mark4>
lol
<mark4>
jn__, Carl Marx said that communism could never work... because of the human factor
<mark4>
socialism is ALWAYS absolute
<mark4>
it might start out with "all animals are equal" but that gets ammended chip by chip over time
<cess11>
no, karl marx said communism is historically inevitable
<jn__>
great caution is required, i'll admit that
<cmtptr>
what did groucho marx say about it
<cess11>
that's basically his thing, claiming that history due to material conditions will necessarily end up with communist societies
<mark4>
show me one communist dictatorship that has lasted?
<cess11>
in my opinion it's childish to make claims with confidence when they're unfounded
<mark4>
yes our republic is not that old either
<mark4>
and is already fragmenting but that is due to lack of education in civics
<cess11>
none of those states have reached communism as marx described it
<cess11>
you would know if you had read marx
<mark4>
and you are a fact witness to my having not?
<cess11>
sure, there's a possibility you're just lying to make it seem you haven't
<cmtptr>
siraben, you have to be skeptical of things like that. there are bad faith actors everywhere
<mark4>
siraben, someone comes in here and starts acting hateful we have the @ hammer to remove them
<mark4>
and individuals have /ignore
<mark4>
there is no wrong doing on the part of the freenode owners here
<mark4>
zero
<cmtptr>
seriously, stop being a nosey busybody and just relax
<cmtptr>
keeping in mind that *phobia are pejorative terms invented by the left
<cess11>
george weinberg was a leftist?
<siraben>
wow, ok. I am leaving.
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<cess11>
do you consider all of his research to be some leftist conspiracy or just his invention of that term?
<mark4>
most of it yes
<mark4>
but i also think most scientific research is also bunk
<cess11>
it must be hard to have those strong feelings getting in the way all the time
<cmtptr>
cess11, whatever the origins half a century ago, you can't deny its use by the left today
<cess11>
so you just made it up and blamed the left
<cess11>
you seem like a really reliable dude
<cess11>
it must be kind of nice to mainly be afraid of name calling like that
<cmtptr>
has anybody ever seen cess11 participate in this channel before today?
<cmtptr>
just curious
<cess11>
yeah i've talked some with kipingram
<mark4>
does not matter, he is still welcome here
<cmtptr>
ok. no offense meant, but in some other channels i've seen conversations of recent events bring out trolls who had never been participants before
<mark4>
and we can discuss anything and disagree with each other with impunity
<crc>
cmtptr: yes, he's been participating since 2017 per my logs
<mark4>
that has always been the ONE rule i had when forming this channel
<mark4>
he has a right to be wrong :)
<mark4>
heh
<cmtptr>
ok. sure, he is welcome, i just wanted to vet intent
<mark4>
also not a problem :)
<cmtptr>
cess11, sorry i said "invented", i should have said "used". i'll try to be more precise in the future
<cess11>
many people use those terms for many different purposes
<cess11>
thanks
<KipIngram>
cess11: Our conversation was quite recent, though.
<cmtptr>
cess11, my point was that generally people who you or someone else might call "homophobic" would not use that word themselves
<KipIngram>
Definitely after the onset of all t his stuff going on.
<mark4>
i am christian. i consider homosexuality to be a sin. i consider judging a sinner to be a sin.
<mark4>
and all sin is equal sin
<mark4>
to hate a person is to murder a person
<cess11>
so you're a protestant
<mark4>
i am a christian. non denominational tho.... technically im RC lol
<cess11>
rosicrucian?
<cess11>
ah, catholic
<mark4>
ya
<cess11>
why haven't you renounced it and baptised for real in another church if you disagree so fiercely with catholic hamartiology?
<mark4>
i have been baptised as an adult
<mark4>
again. making assumptions
<mark4>
and why do i need to make a "i hereby renounce.... " statement
<cess11>
never said you do, but you presented yourself as catholic even though you obviously disagree with the theology
<mark4>
i said nothing about disagreeing with them that i can see
<mark4>
tho... i do :)
<cess11>
sure you did, all sin being equal
<cess11>
pretty much all churches except perhaps some protestants on the margins disagree with you
<mark4>
the BIBLE says that
<mark4>
not me
<cess11>
typically they take mark 3:29 and the counterpart in luke quite seriously
<mark4>
all sin is like a used rag
<mark4>
what does that mean?
<mark4>
a used sanitary towel
<mark4>
ALL sin
<cess11>
don't recognise that from the bible, could you specify where to look?
<mark4>
if you sin and are not saved you are lost. if you sin but are saved you are forgen. ALL sin equally damns you. all sins are equally forgiven
<mark4>
ALL sin is equal even if the bible does not make that statement exactly
<cess11>
mark and luke disagrees, obviously
<mark4>
it does not matter if your sin is telling a lie or murdering 487592645924 people.
<mark4>
the wages of sin is death
<mark4>
all sin is equally punishable.
<mark4>
all sin is equally forgivable
<mark4>
where is the bible does it say it is more ok to tell a lie than to commit muder
<mark4>
where does it say hating someone is less sinful than murder?
<mark4>
because jesus said they were equal
<cess11>
ok, where can i read what jesus said about it?
<crc>
We've gotten well away from Forth at this point
<crc>
KipIngram: interesting points re: UTF-8; I will need to consider this for the future.
<mark4>
Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15).
<cess11>
that's paul
<mark4>
then my source has an incorrect attribute?
<cess11>
mark 3:29 and luke 12:10 is jesus
<cess11>
ah, right, no, it's john the presbyterian, sorry
<cess11>
it's a bit unclear who wrote that comment on the gospel of john
<crc>
when I started my current system, had considered using UTF32 since my system is only addressable in 32-bit chunks, but there's not much that supports that
<mark4>
1 john 3:15 Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
<mark4>
crc you could still use utf8 with those 32 bit chunks
<cess11>
was just about to say
<mark4>
i use 32 bit codepoints with my utf-8 code
<cess11>
that letter is much later than the gospels
<crc>
mark4: yes; I just haven't written anything that actually deals with Unicode characters yet
<mark4>
crc you can look at my utf8 code in uCurses, works pretty good but there are still some things i dont understand
<mark4>
like why my konsole is no longer able to display chinese characters but other utf-8 still works
<mark4>
cess11, its still considered canonical
<cess11>
what do you think canonical means?
<crc>
I may do that. I suspect I'll need to extend my stuff to properly support utf8 at some point.
<mark4>
adopted by the church lol
<mark4>
not much else
<mark4>
but i did use the word "considered"
<cess11>
it means it can be a source of canon law, i.e. divine law as the church interprets it from holy scripture
<mark4>
what is the church?
<mark4>
the PEOPLE within it
<mark4>
not the priests. not the buildings
<cess11>
you're the first person i've met that considers himself a christian and thinks the commentary on the gospels is a better source of canon than what the gospels say that jesus said
<mark4>
seek and ye shall find
<mark4>
where did i quote commentary?
<mark4>
its ALL commentary you mean?
<mark4>
ya. you are right
<cess11>
1 john is a commentary on the gospel of john
<cess11>
usually attributed to john the presbyterian but authorship is quite unclear
<mark4>
so you think only the first 4 books are from god
<cess11>
what do you mean, from god? you think jesus wrote the texts in the new testament?
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<crc>
I think the initial version of my bridge will be ready to start testing tomorrow.
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<mark4>
what does a bridge do?
<mark4>
a bot in both channels and all talk in one is relayed to the other?
<mark4>
technically it could be tehe same both connected to both servers
<crc>
mark4: initially yes
<mark4>
trying to find a very annoying bug in my ray caster. if i walk forward into a wall it segfaults
<mark4>
if i walk backwards into it it does not
<crc>
I'm also looking at bridging to non-irc systems (e.g., matrix and gitter), though these will not be quick to implement
<mark4>
dont even know what those are
<mark4>
but i can see potential issues :)
<mark4>
i say someething here thats not against the rules. the bot says it on some other server and there it is against the rules... . .
<crc>
Matrix is a decentralized chat protocol; the main implementation is *much* heavier than IRC
<crc>
mark4: if I get that working, I would setup a Matrix server that follow the same rules s the IRC channel
<mark4>
i mean what if we had a bridge between here and liberia :)
<mark4>
and i was thinking more of server rules not channel rules
<crc>
if the rules & discussion diverge to a point that some things become an issue, I'll work on a way to address them
<mark4>
erm you would have to implement a cross server filter lol i think thats a bit much but...dont worry about it anyway lol
<mark4>
im just thinking out loud :)
<crc>
It's something for me to worry about if the need arises
<crc>
I don't think it'll be a problem
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<cess11>
complexity is a hassle with matrix but when it's up and running it's quite nice
<cess11>
i've recently moved away from signal to self-hosted matrix on family phones
<crc>
Are there any good non-web based clients?
<KipIngram>
For IRC?
<KipIngram>
I run weechat-curses.
<KipIngram>
I've been quite happy with it. I run it on an always on least host account, in a screen session. Then use mosh from my notebook to connect to that.
<KipIngram>
It behaves in every respect like a local console session - mosh takes care of keeping the connection integrity.
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<crc>
For matrix :)
<crc>
IRC I have many options on
<KipIngram>
Ah, ok. :-)
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