azonenberg changed the topic of #homecmos to: Homebrew CMOS and MEMS foundry design | Wiki: http://homecmos.drawersteak.com/wiki/Main_Page | Repository: http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/ | Logs: http://en.qi-hardware.com/homecmos-logs/
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<SpeedEvil> fun
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<Noxz> again, the main idea I am chasing is photoelectric effect on photodiodes doped with a low work substance that will eject the electrons into the vacuum
<Noxz> incase others wanted to chime on in that regard
<Noxz> otherwise I will likely just be dumping my thoughts mostly here ;)
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<Noxz> my brain hurts
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<SpeedEvil> My rage hurts.
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<pie_> i keep trying to think of lithographic methods that would be good for homecmos but if anyhting was simpler/better/etc industry would alreadybe using it >_>
<SpeedEvil> Well - they'd only be using it if it was useful for them
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<pie_> SpeedEvil, sure
<Noxz> hrmmmm
<Noxz> also, I forgot SEM could be used to expose various PRs
<Noxz> sort of learned what a schottky barrier is, the basics of a diode, really, but how that actually applies to photodiodes, or why there needs to be a diode in it at all.. I guess you really only want current to flow one way
<pie_> Noxz, i was speculating about exactly that earlier
<pie_> i mean SEM for exposure
<pie_> cuz like yknow every physics department has a sem :P
<Noxz> PMMA I think can be done that way
<Noxz> confirmed
<pie_> maybe not homecmos but ghettounicmos is still a step in a direction
<pie_> lowering the bar
<pie_> xP
<Noxz> that would be awesome, to go from the piezo stages that I have to e-beam
<Noxz> higher resolution no doubt
<Noxz> "Exposure to these creates chain scission or (de-cross-linking) within the PMMA, allowing for the selective removal of exposed areas by a chemical developer, making it a positive photoresist."
<Noxz> it's just acrylic, basically
<Noxz> in chlorobenzene
<pie_> we should all move to the same city
<pie_> :P
<Noxz> heh
<Noxz> get a hacker space going on
<pie_> alternatively, i dont suppose anyone in industry wants to take homecmos up in his arms
<pie_> oh to be of the blessed :P
<pie_> s/his/its/
<Noxz> well, there's a limit of doing stuff at home in most cases, especially when you have the right tool for the job
<pie_> sure
<Noxz> or ismply the right tool costs a boat load
<pie_> but thats why we have to find ghetto methods
<pie_> take science back to the basement
<pie_> lol
<pie_> i mean i know im basically spouting bs
<Noxz> it's super easy to get a sheet of acrylic plastic and dissolve it in some chlorobenzene or similar... if that is really what it comes down to
<Noxz> but yeah, a super hack
<Noxz> I bet dichloromethane would work well
<pie_> beam energy?
<Noxz> well, yeah, a SEM would still be needed ;)
<sync_> well, the whole process is an issue
<Noxz> or a UV laser and piezo/micro stages at first
<pie_> i acknowledge what sync_ said
<pie_> let alone material / other purity problems
<Noxz> hehe, purity.....
<sync_> getting a signle device working is easy
<sync_> but getting a few dozen working is difficult
<Noxz> well, are you after mass production?
* pie_ throws lots of statistics at everything
* pie_ mymbles defensive design as if that solves everything
<Noxz> I really have to get some work done at some point.. been spending time on this subject for the past week hasnt been good for what I am supposed to be paid to do
<sync_> no, but getting reliable results is quite difficult, even in a cleanroom setup for lab scale production
<Noxz> hrmmm
<Noxz> they are also pushing boundaries though
<Noxz> like, what feature size is desirable?
<pie_> we'd be pushing boundaries >_>
<pie_> for our tech level
<Noxz> what am I looking at
<sync_> take a guess
<Noxz> feature size..
<sync_> well, yes, it shows something over feature size
<Noxz> and how 50um failed?
<sync_> no, that was a contact issue
<Noxz> heh
<pie_> well given that the x axis goes into the negatives thats not directly a length at least >_>
<sync_> I'll let you simmer for a while, but the difference between the two is heating one 50°K more
<pie_> the diff between _dead and not?
<sync_> yes
<pie_> annealing? evaporating something off the surface?
* pie_ ponders
<pie_> 50K doesnt seem like a lot
<sync_> yes, we did RTA
<pie_> oh i totally missed that the series were labeled on the first frap
<pie_> *graph
<sync_> well, I have had results be completely different with a 10°K higher substrate temperature during evap
<sync_> shit is critical
<pie_> thermal effects
<sync_> surface energy, mostly
* pie_ flails helplessly at thermodynamics
<pie_> shit gets complicated yo xD
<pie_> also just to be overly pedantic, i dont think you use the degree symbol for kelvin?
<pie_> sync_, uni work or industry work?
<sync_> uni
<pie_> ofc if it was the latter we'd all be dead :P
<sync_> but it is for an industry research project
<pie_> makes sense
<sync_> although this is just process calibration
<sync_> and messing around
<pie_> i think id actually be relatively lucky with the phys dept here because they do a lot of thin layer stuff, but not related to silicon at all
<pie_> so :C
<pie_> still have no idea whats on the images xD
<pie_> number of failed components?
<sync_> no
<pie_> well that doesnt make sense with values like 0.1
<sync_> the file name also gives a clue
<pie_> oh, diode forward voltage
<sync_> gotta get your espionage skill up
<pie_> i was staring at forward but it didnt click till you said anything :/
<pie_> soooo voltage-current curve?
<pie_> ah yeah that looks like it makes sense
<sync_> yes, it also shows very characteristic behaviour
<pie_> well i didnt learn the material properly :/
<pie_> we did cover diode curves once but i always have a bunch of junk interfering with my studying. hoping to have better luck / be better at studying this semester. but anyway,
<pie_> that 50um curve is weird
<pie_> sync_, since youre pretty in this, do you have any book reccommendations? or is being in courses/connected with industry the only real way to do this stuff
<sync_> the sze is pretty good, but I wouldn't have understood anything without a course and doing it myself
<pie_> the sze?
<sync_> the book is pretty comprehensive
<pie_> oh thats a guys name :P
<pie_> pretty expensive too >_>
<pie_> i wonder if these are legit hardcover third editions https://www.amazon.es//gp/offer-listing/0471143235/
<sync_> well, it is wiley, so
<sync_> they are
<sync_> but only licensed to be sold in india
<pie_> eh well :P
<pie_> sync_, well you know theres shitty indian companies that reprint books put them in a crap softcover binding, sell them as hardcover but put that its softcover in the description somewhere
<pie_> sync_, for example the first one on here https://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/0471143235/
<pie_> amazon should ban pulling this crap
<pie_> hard to search for good results
<Noxz> that 3rd edition thing is on libgen
<pie_> yeah it is
<pie_> im not saying i cant find *a* copy to read ;)
<pie_> i just prefer hardcover paper :C
<Noxz> I'm just saying ;)
<Noxz> yeah, I recently bought a couple books that were online
<pie_> yeah thanks :)
<Noxz> including a mass spectrometer book
<pie_> i have a few program analysis books, i should start working through them :/
<pie_> so much other junk to do though
<pie_> "wireless chip interconnect" ...dude..
<Noxz> isn't that the same thing as like an optocoupler?
<Noxz> maybe using RF
<Noxz> which they actually have RF couplers as well
<Noxz> I forget the name for rf coupler..
<Noxz> but that isnt it
<Noxz> digital isolator?
<pie_> unrelated, any of you ever been curious about exotic semiconductor materials
<Noxz> well, cesium is on my list, seems fairly exotic considering world consumption is aorund 10kg a year
<Noxz> "The operation of an Si86xx channel is analogous to that of an opto coupler, except an RF carrier is modulated instead of light. "
<Noxz> from TI
<Noxz> so, instead of needing to generate a photon and detect it, it uses EM radiation (which is the same thing if you think about it???)
<pie_> yes its the same tihng
<Noxz> just lower frequency or similar
<Noxz> larger wavelength
<pie_> but theres a large disparity in wavelength meaning they behave differently
<pie_> or something. :P
<Noxz> and likely much different electronics needed for emission/detection because of that
* pie_ doesnt know what he's talkin about
<pie_> for when you really cant get by without crossing the streams :P
<pie_> sync_, what kind of prereqs for sze btw?
<Noxz> great, that book has several chapters on LEDs and photodiodes
<Noxz> gotta read it at some point
<sync_> idk pie_
<pie_> ok thanks anyway
<pie_> the labs version of the art of electronics still isnt on libgen :/
<sync_> not sure what I should think of the art of electronics
<sync_> it is an okay book
<sync_> but eh
<pie_> *shrug*
<pie_> i gotta start somewhere
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