aschmahmann changed the topic of #ipfs to: Heads Up: To talk, you need to register your nick! Announcements: go-ipfs 0.7.0 and js-ipfs 0.52.3 are out! Get them from dist.ipfs.io and npm respectively! | Also: #libp2p #ipfs-cluster #filecoin #ipfs-dev | IPFS: https://github.com/ipfs/ipfs | Logs: https://view.matrix.org/room/!yhqiEdqNjyPbxtUjzm:matrix.org/ | Forums: https://discuss.ipfs.io | Code of Conduct: https://git.io/vVBS0
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<CSDUMMI[m]>
Could you use HTTP Servers as peers for IPFS?
<CSDUMMI[m]>
I.e: If a Node notices, that a certain server holds a file, that is added to IPFS, could it not refer others to that server for the specified CID?
<CSDUMMI[m]>
For example: If I add a cat image to IPFS and upload it to my web server, could it theoretically be possible for IPFS Nodes to request the image from the web server instead of the pinning Node?
<CSDUMMI[m]>
It is the same data and if the data changed, this can be verified because IPFS Nodes are using CIDs.
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<McSinyx[m]>
yes and no, ipfs operates on the basis of blocks, so the http server would need to be able to respond blocks from the cat image
<McSinyx[m]>
(ignoring other stuff that made of an ipfs peer like peer and content discovery)
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<CSDUMMI[m]>
I mean, HTTP-2-IPFS would only be a natural complement to the already existing IPFS-2-HTTP Servers: Gateways.
<CSDUMMI[m]>
As of right now, Gateways are one-way streets: Offering the full range of the IPFS Network to the HTTP World, while not IPFS does not get to utilize HTTP Websites.
<CSDUMMI[m]>
* I mean, HTTP-2-IPFS would only be a natural complement to the already existing IPFS-2-HTTP Servers: Gateways.
<CSDUMMI[m]>
As of right now, Gateways are one-way streets: Offering the full range of the IPFS Network to the HTTP World, while IPFS does not get to utilize HTTP Websites.
<McSinyx[m]>
I think IPFS exists because utilizing HTTP for content is very difficult
<McSinyx[m]>
nothing warranties an endpoint will have different content next access
<CSDUMMI[m]>
But HTTP has an enormous wealth of Content, which if it ever was accessible by CID in IPFS would increase the value of the Network millionfold.
<McSinyx[m]>
s/different/same
<McSinyx[m]>
a decade ago the lifespan of an HTTP endpoint is 75 to 100 days, I suppose it's in the same degree nowadays
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<CSDUMMI[m]>
How long is the lifespan of an average IPFS Node?
<McSinyx[m]>
doesn't matter, because of peer discovery and the endpoint is immutable
<CSDUMMI[m]>
Yes. That's just it: I understand HTTP-2-IPFS to work on the discovery of Content.
<CSDUMMI[m]>
IPFS Node A has a CID -> It requests the content by that CID -> Node B knows that content to be at http://example.org -> A connects to http://example.org, downloads the data and verifies it.
<McSinyx[m]>
yes, virtually you'd need a database for such mapping
<McSinyx[m]>
and the db needs update incase the HTTP endpoint changes
<McSinyx[m]>
you'd also needs sth like happy eyeballs but with entire "file* downloaded
<McSinyx[m]>
eventually you'd end up making another IPFS-like node
<CSDUMMI[m]>
Sure, a Node that works as an HTTP-2-IPFS gateway, would have to take some effort to do this, but in exchange the IPFS network could receive a range of HTTP Files.
<McSinyx[m]>
well storage is much cheaper (and you'll need upload bandwidth either way)
<McSinyx[m]>
you can just add the content to the node (which is cached anyway til GC)
<CSDUMMI[m]>
Yes, but that would be data duplication:
<CSDUMMI[m]>
- Once for the HTTP Server (that may not be your own)
<CSDUMMI[m]>
- Once for IPFS.
<CSDUMMI[m]>
And isn't one of the goals of IPFS to avoid data duplications?
<McSinyx[m]>
no, not across the network
<McSinyx[m]>
the goal of IPFS is to allow duplication across the network (mirroring) for availibility
<McSinyx[m]>
it tries to dedup within a node, which is another thing
<CSDUMMI[m]>
True. So, if I have a web server and a IPFS Node on the same machine, the data would with this need to be duplicated?
<McSinyx[m]>
you can store it in IPFS in the first place
<McSinyx[m]>
that's what the gateway for, exposing IPFS to HTTP (web) users
<CSDUMMI[m]>
Yes, but IPFS Users, trying to access HTTP Data have to use HTTP.
<CSDUMMI[m]>
They cannot go through IPFS.
<McSinyx[m]>
yes, that's true
<McSinyx[m]>
although I don't see how/why
<McSinyx[m]>
say you have dynamic content over example.com/foo
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<McSinyx[m]>
if one wants it as part of a larger collection, say X, then when the http endpoint changes the new collection would be Y
<McSinyx[m]>
there'd be no way for people who knows X to know Y, unless it's named, e.g. via IPNS
<McSinyx[m]>
now if you have an ipns mapped to a http endpoint, there'd be only 1 node who needs to contantly pool for changes on example.com and republish the name
<McSinyx[m]>
and all other ipfs nodes would need to pool/subscribe to the name publish event to get the new thing
<McSinyx[m]>
or technically there's now a central point of failure and no way to actually mirror the content safely
<McSinyx[m]>
the system is de facto http with all IPFS latency added
<CSDUMMI[m]>
Yes. There does not seem to be a need yet for HTTP-2-IPFS, perhaps once IPFS grows more popular, people are going to want to access their old pages through IPFS. But IPFS is probably not adopted popularly enough for there to be a need for this.
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<McSinyx[m]>
huh there isn't a ipfs browser so I'm not sure how one is going to do that
<McSinyx[m]>
i mean i get the idea, i just don't see how it's done in practise
<CSDUMMI[m]>
Yes. Well. My idea in this specific nature will probably not have any use, but some kind of compatibility between HTTP-2-IPFS would surely be needed. If only to make it as easy as possible to migrate a site or content from HTTP to IPFS.
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<wings[m]>
Purely a proof of concept. Legal streaming site based on HTTPS IPFS streaming.
<Discordian[m]>
Like Opus, but with more of a video focus? https://opus.audio/
<Discordian[m]>
Or more like Emby/Plex?
<Discordian[m]>
* Or more like Emby/Plex? (but decentralised)
<wings[m]>
<Discordian[m] "Like Opus, but with more of a vi"> Sort of.
<wings[m]>
We're a platform for streaming, downloading and sharing literally any legally free content, with a crypto (soon to be migrated to SLP from a not really crypto) that rewards users for seeding, tradeable for physical merch from artists.
<wings[m]>
The crypto aspect is 1% of it, I know that's a turnoff for some
<Discordian[m]>
Oh that's neat! I've used centralised platforms like that in the past
<wings[m]>
Mainly we want a great user experience
<wings[m]>
We're more centralised than I'd like, but the database will be regularly sanitized and manually released - everything but private user data
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<wings[m]>
And the token will be user controllable and non custodial
<wings[m]>
The ipfs streaming is already technically decentralised since anybody can contribute to the ipfs pin
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<wings[m]>
And the BitTorrent downloads are also easily decentralised
<wings[m]>
Technically we control which gateways are used but users could trivially make a tampermonkey script/user script (is tampermonkey still a thing?!) that changes the streaming URL.
<Discordian[m]>
I hope tampermonkey is a thing still, I go to it when I'm desperate
<wings[m]>
Come to think of it, A) I can do that myself, B) we could easily make it an "advanced setting"
<wings[m]>
The stretch goal is we will be making a real dApp
<wings[m]>
With gateways in four continents so regular users can use the site with a standard browser
<Discordian[m]>
Yeah I do that a lot "User could just make a userscript" "Thinking about it, I could add in the feature just as easily"
<wings[m]>
And zero crypto knowledge
<wings[m]>
We'll start with a userscript since that's easy as piss.
<Discordian[m]>
I like that, I plan to also host some gateways if/when I launch services for anything
<wings[m]>
But yes, we need to offer sensible options that reduce centralisation.
<wings[m]>
Ultimately I want this to completely be controlled by the world. We're aiming to run the platform for 600 years, not even joking.
<wings[m]>
It took us 11 years to get here, although the current incarnation only launched in December 2020.
<Discordian[m]>
Wow, have you shared this before?
<wings[m]>
Currently there's centralised control over the SLP token once it launches - specifically, the way it's minted. Plan is to let it ride for 1-2 years while we build a base, then publish a mutable smart contract controlling it, with a council who votes on changes, and we will expand that council over time as needed.
<wings[m]>
Yes, but never to this detail.
<wings[m]>
And the app concept is totally new to us.
<Discordian[m]>
Ooooh you should submit it for the IPFS weekly newsletter
<wings[m]>
Hoping to do a crowdfunding campaign 6-12 months from now too.
<Discordian[m]>
At least, this deserves some attention
<wings[m]>
Sure, could you DM me some details?
<wings[m]>
I'd absolutely love to invite people via that, even. And would you like an invite fwiw?
<Discordian[m]>
Yeah I'll see what I can gather up to get you more attention.
<Discordian[m]>
Yeah sure! I'll definitely check it all out when I have time. Does it use browser js-ipfs? I've been playing with that a lot the past few days
<wings[m]>
https://j.riff.cc/perth gets you in, the site currently is essentially a standard "torrent site" with quality of life improvements and purely legal content.
<wings[m]>
The ipfs streaming isn't extremely widespread yet, there's only two things with it fully implemented.
<wings[m]>
Eventually nearly everything on the site will be streamable, roughly 1.1 million releases once absolutely everything is uploaded.
<wings[m]>
Maybe 800k streamable pieces of content via IPFS.
<Discordian[m]>
How do you do it? Star nodes? Relaying? Both?
<Discordian[m]>
That's a cool idea too though, I was so focused on the communication aspect, forgot to think file sharing works fine that way. Though it'd be cool to have at least star nodes, that way two browsers on the same network could peer data to eachother automatically. Could get complicated mixed with HTTP though I suppose
<wings[m]>
Yeah we're planning to basically use some magic to allow things like Brave Browser to use native IPFS.
<wings[m]>
So any browser with appropriate plugins or support can bypass our CDN, as long as it's fast.
<wings[m]>
And we'll be making it extremely highly available too. 3 gateways to start once we are closer to launch with plans for 12, failover and load balancing and shortest path finding for all.
<Discordian[m]>
Oh I like that, I need to try that out. Might be easier than straight up browser js IPFS. I wrote an example here if you're interested (very fresh) http://portal.thedisco.zone/testing/chat.html
<wings[m]>
The CDN already does all that. So we can chuck a gateway on each continent, and users get lightning speed consistently.
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<wings[m]>
I'm definitely interested but we've tried it and had a bad experience
<wings[m]>
And it was mostly standard https anyways.
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<Discordian[m]>
I 100% know what you mean
<Discordian[m]>
I went through the trial by fire to make that demo function
<Discordian[m]>
We'kk be doing a blog post on how to pull that off in the near future
<Discordian[m]>
* We'll be doing a blog post on how to pull that off in the near future
<wings[m]>
Awesome
<wings[m]>
Well the future looks bright for ipfs
<wings[m]>
I wanted webtorrent but like
<Discordian[m]>
Very exciting, I love seeing that you want basically every possible option to get the data
<wings[m]>
There is no public spec for the tracker
<wings[m]>
Wish I was kidding
<Discordian[m]>
tbh thinking about torrenting, I 100% believe it
<wings[m]>
There's 3 open source implementations and a mythical spec that doesn't exist.
<wings[m]>
Publicly at least.
<Discordian[m]>
Hahaha oof, but very believable. I hope IPFS can standardise those things, maybe do away with torrenting
<Discordian[m]>
I sent you a couple DMs BTW ;)
<wings[m]>
BitTorrent is absolutely incredible technology
<wings[m]>
But it's stagnated and Bram Cohen doesn't seem that interested in continuing to improve it
<Discordian[m]>
It really is, I love the p2p aspects. IPFS captured my heart though, and I had to break up with BT
<wings[m]>
And since ipfs already implements most of what it was good at...
<Discordian[m]>
Yeaaahh
<wings[m]>
I didn't really see this before but um
<wings[m]>
I could see a future where we go purely IPFS.
<wings[m]>
Extremely tentative speculation but I *think* we can fairly reward people for ipfs seeding the same way we currently do.
<Discordian[m]>
One day! 😀 It's certainly making quick, large strides.
<wings[m]>
My only concern is ensuring that there's a fair and widespread ecosystem of different clients with which to seed.
<wings[m]>
And that we can prevent cheating.
<wings[m]>
We want to create a multi million dollar economy.
<wings[m]>
You can never *prevent* it but to at least discourage it and make a good effort to avoid it being rampant.
<wings[m]>
Final stuff because I need to sleep soon
<wings[m]>
Currently any user can upload but we have moderation preventing anything from appearing until it's been checked for abuse, piracy etc
<Discordian[m]>
Yeah I've been trying t think of methods to determine if a node primarily just leeches. Less scoring them on how much, but mostly trying to score if they at least attempt to rehost what they take.
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<wings[m]>
And we we're working on something called Sentinel which scans all releases, finds the source, scans it for a licence and verifies it's legal
<wings[m]>
Flags it and temporarily hides it if it's not.
<wings[m]>
It'll be MIT licenced and super powerful if we come close to pulling it off.
<Discordian[m]>
Would your service ever be good for mirroring a YT channel? Or would that be disallowed as technically the uploader won't own it (unless it's their channel)
<wings[m]>
Obviously that can't be perfect but it will allow us to really truly claim we're making a solid effort to be legal.
<wings[m]>
<Discordian[m] "Would your service ever be good "> It would be excellent but it has to be done with the explicit consent of the channel.
<wings[m]>
1. Legal, non pirated, and to the best of our knowledge done with the consent of the creator
<wings[m]>
2. Does not abuse or depict abuse of any person or animal (there are obviously lines to be drawn and exceptions to be made, we're not gonna ban meat for example, but someone cooking pets will not be allowed)
<wings[m]>
3. Of interest
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<wings[m]>
By the way we're planning on using all spare bandwidth we can to distribute scientific papers and datasets for free as open as we can, to allow scientists easier access to that stuff.
<wings[m]>
And some of my spare time and effort is spent on creating automation tools for installing scientific apps much more easily than previously possible.
<wings[m]>
I work in supercomputing so it helps my job and reputation to do so, but frankly my motivation is I want to live longer and find a way to not waste Riff's unused resources.
<wings[m]>
I figure if I help educate people and further science to the point that one hour I put into riff equals one extra hour of my life, it's a completely fair trade. Not counting on it but it's also not impossible.
<wings[m]>
We're working on creating and distributing educational content too - prepackaged Moodle courses, all kinds of stuff.
<Discordian[m]>
Oh that's awesome, really fits into the approach of IPFS I think, just trying to make the world a better place
<wings[m]>
One major motivation there for me is that my mum is a pre primary teacher
<wings[m]>
And she spent thousands on edu materials for her kids, and never got paid back.
<wings[m]>
And that to me is criminal, I want to make sure that never happens again needlessly.
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<Discordian[m]>
Yesterday at a talk Dietrich mentioned there's interest in blacklisting bad content, everything is moving forward, but there's a lot to do.
<echoSMILE>
I don't get how some team created something without thinking in basic stuff like this.
<Discordian[m]>
It does seem fundamental, but time isn't infinite, and focuses get diverged. Either way, PRs are very welcome, and if the feature is important to you to have done sooner rather than later, you can request a dev grant for the next round of grants: https://github.com/ipfs/devgrants
<echoSMILE>
Let me re-phrase:
<echoSMILE>
I don't get how some team created something without thinking _at the very begining_ in basic stuff like this.
<RomeSilvanus[m]>
Banning things is not basic stuff. It’s too subjective.
<echoSMILE>
Yes it is. Exposure of fragile situations is quite a very basic situation. So, how was not that in the TODO list?
<RomeSilvanus[m]>
Censorship should it exist.
<Discordian[m]>
If it's simple to you, I request you submit a PR! I'd love to have an API to blacklist content from my nodes! I'm imaging there will be very powerful tools in the future for managing what kind of content you do and don't want to see via sub some sort of subscription mechanism.
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<RomeSilvanus[m]>
* Censorship should not exist.
<echoSMILE>
Like the great philosopher from 90's said: "Your [programmers] were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."
<Discordian[m]>
* If it's simple to you, I request you submit a PR! I'd love to have an API to blacklist content from my nodes! I'm imaging there will be very powerful tools in the future for managing what kind of content you do and don't want to see/serve via sub some sort of subscription mechanism.