p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<ldb> hello all
<beach> Hello ldb.
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<remexre> hm, does anyone know of an implementation of UAX #11 in lisp?
<remexre> haven't found anything googling around, but figured I'd ask here before writing my own / deciding not to support unicode
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<phoe> remexre: AFAIK there is none
<remexre> hm, unfortunate
<beach> remexre: What do you mean by "deciding not to support unicode"?
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<remexre> uh, just assuming all characters are one column wide and leaving a comment, "stick to ascii or implement uax11"
<remexre> (I have a fix-up for tabs elsewhere)
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<pve> Good morning! A terminology question: is it correct to say that a cons is a "persistent data structure", whereas something like a hash table (at least in CL) is not?
<beach> That doesn't sound right.
<phoe> what do you mean by "persistent"
<beach> Why would a CONS be persistent?
<phoe> neither of these survives garbage collection
<flip214> pve: both can have their "internal state" changed
<phoe> neither of these survives closing the Lisp image
<phoe> neither is strictly immutable, as flip214 mentioned
<beach> phoe: That's not what the term means (unfortunately).
<flip214> or do you mean that the in-memory layout is fixed for a CONS cell, but a hash table can change in size?
<phoe> beach: that's why I'm asking what "persistent" means in this context
<beach> Sure.
<phoe> if it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_data_structure then neither conses nor hash tables in CL are like that
<phoe> even if just because both are mutable
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<phoe> you can treat both of them as functional data structures which means not mutating them; this means consing up new lists and sharing structure wherever possible, and making new hash tables instead of modifying old ones
<pve> yeah, I was looking for a name to distinguish between those kinds of data structures, which at least to me, seem different in how they are usually used
<pve> i.e. the hash table is mutated, but conses not necessarily
<phoe> "usually" is troublesome
<phoe> conses are used in both contexts, you can mutate them and not mutate them
<phoe> in Lisp, it's more of a contextual question, especially since conses are CDTs and not ADTs
<pve> ok, suppose we don't mutate conses, would "functional data structure" be the correct term?
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<phoe> an immutable singly linked list is such a thing, sure
<pve> but I have trouble seeing how they relate to one another, are they synonymous?
<phoe> a persistent data structure always seems to refer to old versions of itself
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<phoe> a singly linked list is not such a structure because the result of (CDR '(1 2 3)) does not refer to (1 2 3) anywhere
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<pve> I mean the first example given there is a singly linked list
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* phoe re-reads
<pve> at least to me, calling conses (in CL) purely functional seems like a bit of a stretch
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<pve> but in say, Standard ML, they certainly are
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<phoe> OK, "preserve" means a different thing in this context; it doesn't mean explicitly refering to them, it means that the previous values are unchanged
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<pve> but calling conses persistent seems more reasonable
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<phoe> ...I wonder what's the real distinction between the two then
<pve> which is different to a hash table, where you always modify that one table
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<phoe> every purely functional data structure is persistent, but is it true that every persistent data structure is also purely functional?
<pve> yeah, that's what I don't get
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<pve> my interpretation is that purely functional is more strict
<sm2n> I'm pretty sure it's the opposite
<treflip> Persistent data structures may be implemented in imperative style. There is a great book "Purely Functional Data Structures" by Chris Okasaki, it has a clear explanation of these things in its first chapter IIRC.
<pve> oh
<sm2n> it's a bit odd because these categories kind of cut across both implementation/interface
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<sm2n> and yeah, okasaki has a nice chapter on it (chapter 2 though)
<sm2n> with diagrams and everything
<pve> I've skimmed that one a long time ago, maybe time for a re-read
<sm2n> purely functional is a property of the interface, in that the interface doesn't mutate its arguments
<pve> ok that makes sense
<sm2n> persistent is basically an optimization, where shared structure is used wherever possible
<sm2n> that's my understanding anyway
<pve> that also makes sense
<treflip> In his book Okasaki divides data structures into persistent and ephemeral, meaning that persistent data structures kinda provide access to their previous states, and ephemeral don't.
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<pve> treflip: you mean that when you add something to a red-black tree, you get a new tree back?
<pve> for example
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<pve> implying that you can still access the old tree, i mean
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<beach> If you can't access the old three, there is no great difference between a functional an imperative data structure.
<beach> It would be only a difference in interface style.
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<beach> Imperative: (insert <thing> <tree>) Functional: (let ((tree (insert <thing> <tree>))))
<beach> So, yes, a new tree would be returned, probably sharing structure with the previous one.
<pve> right
<beach> But then, a red-black tree is not an abstract data type either, so it's not a great example.
<beach> The abstract data type would be a dictionary with a totally ordered key domain, or an editable sequence.
<beach> A red-black tree is a way to implement those abstract data types, and the very definition of a red-black tree seems to require destructive modifications to maintain a balanced tree.
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<beach> I mean, it is obviously possible to make a red-black tree "functional", but it may reduce possible sharing then.
<beach> It is obviously possible, because you can always clone the original tree and make a destructive modification in the clone.
<pve> yeah I think I implemented a red-black tree in Standard ML back in school
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<ldb> *with ML functors
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<Josh_2> Good afternoon everyone
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<Josh_2> Other than AMOP wheres the best writing to understand the MOP?
<Josh_2> any more in-depth tutorials?
<Josh_2> I Know that the Atlanta Functional Programming group went through the AMOP but the examples given in the book seem quite trivial
<heisig> Josh_2: Good question. I think there is no comprehensive MOP guide (yet?), so you have to learn from other people's code.
<heisig> Which raises another good question: What is everyone's favorite code that makes heavy use of the MOP?
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<shka_> heisig: MOP
<shka_> but seriously
<shka_> mana database is an example, postmodern also has simple DAO classes
<shka_> it is not very complex, but useful
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<shka_> folks, i am trying to build a strongly independent on seed (and hopefully reasonably fast) hash function for lists of (unsigned-byte 64)
<shka_> that's what i have at the moment
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<shka_> does it look good? do you have ideas how i can improve it?
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<mseddon> Can I just say, I am absolutely blown away with SBCL performance on a Raspberry Pi Zero. It's easily more responsive than anything else I've used.
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<mseddon> (and by anything, I mean any other scripting language- I have not compared different lisp environments).
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<beach> mseddon: Ah, but Common Lisp is not a "scripting language", which explains why SBCL has much better performance. Instead Common Lisp is a general-purpose programming language, so good implementations must be sufficiently fast to compete with implementations of other general-purpose languages.
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<mseddon> beach: Yes, I'm aware, (actually returning to lisp from a 20 year haitus), I looked in horror as I sent that and knew someone would raise it :)
<beach> As long as you are aware...
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<mseddon> Sufficiently smart compilers ;)
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<beach> That's not all there is to it. Designers of so-called scripting languages are often incompetent when it comes to language design and compiler technology. Not so for the very smart and very knowledgeable people who gave us the Common Lisp standard.
<mseddon> beach: absolutely true. nearly every 'successful' language is just a crap recursive descent compiler that emits crap stack bytecode. mmm. cache trashing.
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<mseddon> v8 is quite interesting, but javascript braindamage definitely limits it excessively. Seems more like a self compiler really.
<remexre> also impressive to me, SBCL on my pinebook pro also blows most compiled languages out of the water on compile speed, even when building binaries with a fresh sbcl process
<mseddon> remexre: as a Scala refugee, I particularly appreciate that :)
<remexre> yeah, I usually like Rust and Haskell a lot, but it's been excruicating to develop for them on that machine
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<remexre> (though, Rust isn't great for compile time on x86 boxes either...)
<mseddon> remexre, it is a rocket engine compared to Scala once you start depending on libraries that abuse the type system.
<remexre> oof
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* jackdaniel sends a polite reminder, that this channel topic is common lisp [[ a friendly smile at the end -- :-) ]]
<mseddon> jackdaniel, whoops, sorry. ;) anyway. generally, nice work SBCL team!
<jackdaniel> no worries
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<phoe> mseddon: #sbcl might want to hear that
<ajithmk> Are keywords scoped to a package? If there is symbol in a package, say s, we use it in another package like package:s or package::s. But if s is keyword, : get's in the way? Like package::s or package:::s?
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<jackdaniel> keywords have a separate package
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<jackdaniel> when you write :foo
<jackdaniel> then it is a symbol with name "FOO" in a package "KEYWORD"
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<ajithmk> So when reader encounters :foo in a package it interns FOO in keyword package. So :foo is available in any other package?
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<jackdaniel> yes
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<phoe> :FOO === KEYWORD:FOO
<phoe> PACKAGE::SYMBOL means a completely different thing
<phoe> and PACKAGE:::SYMBOL is undefined
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<jackdaniel> it is defined that implementations are free to give meaning to that, but that would be by definition not portable
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<ldb> unfortunately there is no "local" keyword package
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<jackdaniel> what would you need that for?
<jackdaniel> you have "local" symbols
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<ldb> to bind functions to symbols in keyword
<phoe> bind functions to symbols in keyword? I can't parse that
<phoe> binding functions to symbols is FLET/LABELS
<ldb> in KEYWORD package
<jackdaniel> but why would you define functions in keyword package?
<jackdaniel> what's wrong with (defun foo () …) ; that is already local
<phoe> (flet ((:foo () 42)) (:foo)) works for me but will not be portable
<phoe> I know that LispWorks is allergic to functions named after keywords
<ldb> it is an old way to implement commands in the custom repl
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<ldb> thus in addition to the current package user can always access the toplevel commands
<phoe> (let ((form (read *repl-stream*))) (cond ((eq form :command) ...) ... (t (print (eval form)))))
<jackdaniel> ^ that's basically how ecl does that, and it is pretty old ,)
<ldb> not very helpful for having custom commands
<jackdaniel> also, if you had wanted to do what you've mentioned you want to, you'd want symbol-macrolets, not functions
<jackdaniel> because
<mseddon> keywords as functions trip me up a lot on Clojure, but I guess that may be also hurt because it's a lisp-1
<jackdaniel> :help foobar ; is not (:help 'foobar)
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<jackdaniel> even older implementations (most notably genera), started commands with a comma which is less ambigous
<jackdaniel> because you can't have top-level comma
<ldb> ?
<jackdaniel> cl-user> ,help
<mseddon> Does CLIM use , for commands too? I seem to remember it has command tables like genera, but I am incredibly rusty.
<ldb> CLIM has seperated command toplevel
<jackdaniel> McCLIM's Listener does that, I don't know about CLIM-TOS
<phoe> slime does that
<mseddon> right.
<jackdaniel> ldb: yes, but listener combines both the repl and the command processor (vide clim-listener, slime)
<ldb> and it can be config to change the piority of treating a form a command or lisp exp
<jackdaniel> on genera it certainly could
<ldb> I kinda agree that symbols in KEYWORD should not be bounded
<jackdaniel> but it is not a specified behavior (because listener is unspecified program)
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<mseddon> btw is there a good property based testing library available?
<mseddon> looks like a toss up between check-it and cl-quickcheck, do people have any preferences?
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<tychoish>
<tychoish> yeah, I dunno
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<remexre> hm, is there a standard function like FIND that returns the cons whose car is the element
<remexre> oh wait, MEMBER does that, dunnit\
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<mfiano> Not quite
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<qwe> (hi all)
<contrapunctus> (greet qwe )
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<qwe> Is it possible to execute curl command from the elisp interpreter?
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