jackdaniel changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | offtopic --> #lispcafe
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<beach> phoe: Thanks! I'll think about presentations on other topics as well.
<beach> phoe: By the way, I can prepare a presentation for a week from tomorrow (or later) in case you have no other candidates.
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<pve> Good morning! I wonder if someone could explain to me why I'm seeing this behaviour:
<pve> I understand that it works if I do (shadow "ARRAY") or (shadow 'cl:array)
<pve> but it's not clear to me why (shadow 'array) leads to that weird behaviour, because reading the hyperspec entry for shadow, I get the impression that it should work
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<pve> are all the references to the symbol "ARRAY" stored "in one place" in the fasl, so that when the fasl is loaded, LOAD sees 'array (i.e. CL:ARRAY, before shadowing) and then assumes all ARRAY symbols in the fasl are the same?
<pve> so the shadowing has no effect in that for that fasl
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<beach> The symbol ARRAY already exists in the cl-user package, so it is going to use the pre-existing symbol.
<beach> clhs shadow.
<specbot> Couldn't find anything for shadow..
<beach> clhs shadow
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<beach> Since the symbol already exists, no new symbol is created.
<beach> It should be the same if you use "ARRAY" or 'cl:array.
<beach> The name is a designator for a string, so only the name of the symbol matters if you give it a symbol.
<pve> right, so shadow doesn't throw out CL:ARRAY
<pve> i mean unintern
<beach> Right.
<pve> i forgot about that
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<pve> beach: thanks
<beach> Sure.
<pve> but why then, does it print COMMON-LISP-USER::ARRAY if I load-compile from slime (C-c C-k)?
<beach> Good question. I have no explanation for that. Sorry.
<pve> could it be a "feature" of sbcl?
<pve> (I have no other implementation currenty to test on)
<phoe> beach: sure, I'll grab a video from you
<phoe> also, good morning everyone
<beach> phoe: Great!
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<pve> beach: ok, so the discrepancy must have been caused by something I was loading into my slime session (need to investigate that), because if I compile and load my example from the shell without loading any init files or libraries it prints COMMON-LISP-USER::ARRAY in both cases
<pve> but that doesn't seem right either
<phoe> pve: what is your Lisp implementation?
<pve> I would expect COMMON-LISP::ARRAY
<pve> phoe: sbcl
<phoe> is this consistent with (describe 'array)?
<beach> pve: I tend to agree.
<phoe> I mean, PACKAGE-NAME SYMBOL-PACKAGE should *not* return CL-USER in this case because ARRAY is imported from CL
<pve> phoe: it is consistent with describe
<phoe> does DESCRIBE also give you CL-USER instead of CL?
<pve> phoe: yes
<phoe> ......I can reproduce this
<phoe> what
<phoe> how
<phoe> oh, wait
<phoe> you are shadowing 'array in line 4
<phoe> like, explicitly shadowing it
<phoe> that's why it happens
<phoe> one second...\
<no-defun-allowed> The two (or three?) means of compiling and/or loading that code appear to do different things though.
<phoe> beach: no, wait
<phoe> SHADOW removes CL:ARRAY from CL-USER and creates CL-USER::ARRAY
<phoe> "For each such name, if a corresponding symbol is not present in package (directly, not by inheritance), then a corresponding symbol is created with that name, and inserted into package as an internal symbol."
<phoe> also, arguments for SHADOW are a list of string designators
<pve> oh, directly
<phoe> so the symbol CL:ARRAY is turned into "ARRAY"
<phoe> and then this gets shadowed.
<phoe> so if we pass CL:ARRAY, or :ARRAY, or "ARRAY", the behavior is the same
<pve> yeah that part was my mistake
<pve> but the "(directly, not by inheritance)" completely explains everything
<White_Flame> the package of 'array is found by the reader
<phoe> but 'array then gets coerced into "ARRAY" which drops package information
<White_Flame> I mean in the parameter to FORMAT
<White_Flame> not to shadow
<beach> Oh, sorry. I didn't see the "not by inheritance".
<pve> phew, I thought I was losing my mind here
<phoe> oh! yes
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<White_Flame> hmm, nevermind, I think that the eval-when should guarantee the shadowing before the format expression is read
<White_Flame> although #. would force the issue :-P
<White_Flame> this is why it's important to have a separate package.lisp to set everything up in a separate file
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<phoe> no, why? DEFPACKAGE + IN-PACKAGE at the top of a file solves that issue just as well
<phoe> exactly because of EVAL-WHEN that both of them use internally
<phoe> the SHADOW call should be a part of DEFPACKAGE, that's my only real gripe with this code
<phoe> ...but you can't DEFPACKAGE CL-USER, obviously
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<pve> my original problem was probably caused by some package-fu I'm doing in the project I'm working on
<pve> But thank you guys for the help!
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<beach> Am I reading the dictionary entry for DEFCONSTANT right in that the constant is not defined at compile time?
<beach> clhs defconstant
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<beach> It says that the compiler must recognize that the name names a constant variable, but not that the value is available at compile time.
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<phoe> "An implementation may choose to evaluate the value-form at compile time, load time, or both."
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<phoe> seems pretty clear to me
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<beach> OK, let me ask the question differently then.
<phoe> if the value is allowed to be available only at load time, then it may *not* be available at compile time
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<phoe> where "available" means "after being evaluated"
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<beach> Yeah, that's what I see as well.
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<phoe> it is allowed not to be available at compile-time, BUT it also says that this behavior is implementation-dependent
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<phoe> so as an implementer you can do e.g. what SBCL does which is to EVAL-ALWAYS %DEFCONSTANT
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<phoe> but it seems that as a user you cannot really depend on the constant being available at compile time.
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<beach> Right, so a file containing (defconstant bla ...) (defun foo (..) bla) may or may not work.
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<phoe> no no, actually
<phoe> it might work
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<beach> That's what I said.
<phoe> imagine a simple implementation that implements DEFCONSTANT via DEFPARAMETER
<beach> It may or may not work.
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<phoe> it *must* work
<phoe> "If a defconstant form appears as a top level form, the compiler must recognize that name names a constant variable."
<beach> Yes, but not the value.
<phoe> yes, that's correct
<phoe> but we don't need the value
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<phoe> just to recognize that BLA is a defined name
<beach> And when foo is compiled, the value must be known.
<phoe> no, wait, why
<beach> How else would you compile foo?
<phoe> (defvar bla ...) (defun foo (...) bla)
<phoe> or rather
<phoe> (defparameter bla ...) (defun foo (...) bla)
<beach> I am saying, what does the compiler do when it sees bla?
<phoe> depends on the implementation!
<beach> Oh, I see what you are saying.
<beach> It silently doesn't use the constant.
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<phoe> yes
<beach> That's vicous.
<beach> vicious
<phoe> but allowed for very simple implementations, I guess
<phoe> it's impossible to do any optimizations that way
<phoe> but this way is trivial to implement and preserves language semantics, since constant redefinition is undefined
<phoe> so you effectively get a single-assignment global variable.
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<phoe> so a really dumb implementation can go this way and still conform.
<beach> I would tend to signal an error, or at least a warning, but I can't see whether it would be allowed to do that.
<beach> I guess a warning and then compile it as you said.
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<phoe> a warning for what exactly?
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<beach> That the compiler did not have access to the value so it had to compile it as an access to a variable defined at run time.
<phoe> did not have access, you mean, it encountered an unknown variable?
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<beach> That the compiler did not have access to the VALUE at compile time, so it could not compile the code as if BLA were the constant that it is defined to be. And instead it had to compile it as an access to a variable at run time, thereby degrading performance.
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<phoe> I think I partially understand... why would it not have access to VALUE at compile-time? an implementation is allowed to evaluate the DEFCONSTANT value at compile-time, so signaling a warning in that case sounds like a making bugticket for your own self
<phoe> I mean, your compiler is allowed to just grab the value at compile-time and use it
<phoe> and if user code is built in a way that doesn't make it possible, *then* it's a bug on the user side
<beach> Because the implementation chose not to evaluate the initialization at compile time, or at least chose to not store that value for compile-time availability.
<phoe> oh, sure
<phoe> but then it's allowed to do that, so I guess that the only warning it can signal would be a STYLE-WARNING
<phoe> or rather a compiler note
<beach> Yes, and a bug on the user side could be indicated by a warning.
<phoe> yep
<beach> Thanks.
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<iissaacc> i redefined a method from a library in some code, and I don't get any warnings and the redefinition works as expected in a REPL session. But when I tested it in a fresh REPL session the old behaviour associated with that method happens, i.e the redefinition doesnt seem to have taken effect. Does anyone know why this could be?
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<phoe> are you sure you got the packages right?
<phoe> this bit me a few times when doing method redefinitions
<phoe> like, (DEFMETHOD QUUX ...) is allowed to define a method on FOO:QUUX
<phoe> but it is also allowed to *silently* create a brand new generic function BAR:QUUX and then define a method on this
<iissaacc> ahhhhh
<phoe> and then calling FOO:QUUX, understandably, gives the old effects
<iissaacc> right, so my redefinition is actually creating a new generic function in my package
<iissaacc> instead of redefining the generic function from the package
<phoe> that's why I wish there was a toggle to cause DEFMETHOD to error if the respective generic function is not found.
<phoe> at least for *some* code
<phoe> I've wasted lots of time on debugging this stuff.
<iissaacc> so if i include the package prefix it should work as expected
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<phoe> yes, it should work if you pass the proper GF name to DEFMETHOD.
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<iissaacc> thanks man that was making me scratch my head a bit
<phoe> this behavior annoys me so much that this was the first thing I actually thought of
<phoe> one of the few cases where Lisp is allowed to completely silently do The Wrong Thing™ and the blame is fully on the programmer for not checking their symbols.
<phoe> (where "The Wrong Thing™" is my subjective opinion)
<iissaacc> what would be cool would be being able to inspect function definitions, but afaik this isnt possible because things get compiled straight away
<phoe> inspect function definitions, what do you mean?
<phoe> slime's M-. usually can get you to source locations of everything
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<phoe> and then there is also FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION that works in some cases
<iissaacc> ah cool
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<mseddon> has any lisp implementation used the recursive-p argument for read-char? What is it supposed to do there? It only makes sense for me within read
<mseddon> sbcl ignores it, for e.g.
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<beach> Yes, it is meant for use when READ calls READ recursively. You can use it when you call READ from one of your reader macros, for instance.
<_death> "It is also necessary to distinguish betwene top-level and internal calls to READ-CHAR and READ-LINE and others for the purposes of EOF handling."
<beach> Where is that quotation from?
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<_death> there is also further discussion there
<mseddon> aha, thanks!
<mseddon> _death, that url seems dead?
<beach> mseddon: One example is the handling of #= and ##. When RECURSIVE-P is false, a new dictionary for those is created. But you don't want to create a new dictionary for a recursive call.
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<mseddon> beach, yes, but since read-char is not reentrant, and just returns a character, eof-error or signals an error, I don't see what read-char needs recursive-p for, since I figure the recursive-p would be handled by the macro character #=
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<beach> Oh, sorry, read-char. Misread.
<mseddon> ah yeah, that's the odd one. read-char, peek-char and unread-char all take recursive-p who's purpose is a mystery
* beach must be tired after a long day of intense work.
<mseddon> but the bootstrap is getting there :)
<_death> mseddon: make sure you include the [...] part.. I also put up a gnus friendly version in a single file (cl-su-ai) at https://github.com/death/gnus-friendly-archives
<mseddon> _death: aha, yes, my bad, thanks
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<mseddon> _death, nice idea for the gnus compatible repo, thanks for putting that up!
<edgar-rft> cltl2 has some lengthy explanations about recursive-p under https://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node195.html
<edgar-rft> in particular 1) #n= and #n# syntax 2) whitespace presevation and 3) end-of-file handling
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<flip214> is there a way to make QL fetch a tarball of FASLs instead of source files? I'm thinking about pre-compiling all (or at least most) required libraries for a container setup.
<flip214> QL because then the dev and release code would be the same, only the config (which base URL to fetch from) would be different
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<mseddon> edgar-rft, thanks!
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<shka_> hello
<phoe> random rant: :BEFORE and :AFTER methods should be capable of returning the list of arguments that is then passed into/out of the primary method
<phoe> I need to do literally everything in :AROUND if I want to validate arguments while providing valid STORE-VALUE restarts that will mutate the *proper* place
<shka_> phoe: returning… where?
<phoe> shka_: actually, well, just :BEFORE
<phoe> :AFTER has nowhere to return it to
<shka_> well, ok
<shka_> if only before bothers you, it can be solved by adding separate generic function before-foo which will call the foo in :AFTER
<phoe> no, what bothers me is this
<phoe> (defgeneric frob (thing)) (defmethod frob :before (thing) (check-type thing integer)) (defmethod frob (thing) thing) (handler-bind ((type-error (lambda (c) (declare (ignore c)) (invoke-restart 'store-value 42)))) (frob :forty-two))
<phoe> STORE-VALUE stores in the wrong place
<shka_> phoe: well, sure :-)
<shka_> however, you still can solve this by having two functions
<shka_> or tree
<phoe> yes, it can be solved
<shka_> defun foo, defgeneric validate-foo defgeneric do-foo
<phoe> I'm just annoyed that :BEFORE is the wrong tool for this job, it would have been much cleaner in my eyes
<shka_> where foo goes like (apply #'do-foo (validate-foo arg1 arg2))
<shka_> well, it is what it is
<shka_> hmmm
<shka_> phoe: i have an idea
<shka_> phoe: instead of doing that, you can simply mutate list stored in special variable
<shka_> and then, apply said list
<shka_> a little bit annoying to write it by hand, but easy to generate with macro
<p_l> among today's internet woes, I'd like to give a honorable and channel-related mention that AS 5 is apparently still alive and took part in the brouhaha (AS 5 = Symbolics :D)
<phoe> this is going to fail in case of the effective method being precomputed and then applied
<phoe> oh wait, no
<phoe> we're talking about keyword arguments now...
<phoe> this is a dangerous idea, still, mutating the arglist is kinda like pulling the rug that my GF is standing on
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<shka_> phoe: eh, keyword arguments are annoying :/
<shka_> useful, but hard to handle
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<shka_> phoe: i don't have any other ideas
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<Krystof> phoe: you could do your type checking in the method combination
<Krystof> I think
<phoe> Krystof: that's one idea, I'd need to pass types/validation into the method combination though, somehow
<Krystof> yeah, and it doesn't work, I think, sadly:
<Krystof> "the consequences of using such a form as the place in a setf form are undefined."
<phoe> yes
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<hendursaga> Can anyone recommend a good library for manipulating XML? Not just parsing or processing, but manipulating and then outputting back to XML. Preferably with XPath or DOM/CSS selector support.
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<hendursaga> So far it seems lquery is my best bet, but I'm not sure how to replace XML with something like S-XML which would then be serialized back to XML.
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<hendursaga> I could use xmls' toxml for that, though?
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<shka_> hendursaga: for parsing: https://github.com/Shinmera/plump
<shka_> there is also serialize function, i never used it though
<shka_> but parsing and querying works perfectly fine
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<hendursaga> shka_: lquery uses plump, actually
<shka_> well, yes
<shka_> and there is stuff like remove-child and stuff
<shka_> so i think it matches your needs, right?
<hendursaga> Yes, I finally figured it out. Wish it didn't take as long as it did, though :/
<shka_> don't be angry, it happens
<hendursaga> There's just so many different libraries out there, so many Lisps, so little documentation.
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<VincentVega> Hi guys. I have stumbled upon this weird compilation vs evaluation deal, not sure what I am doing wrong: https://pastebin.com/J0A2sWYB
<VincentVega> Would be glad if someone could take a look.
<phoe> why is this a macro?
<VincentVega> I have simplified a larger piece of code I was working with.
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<phoe> DEFCLASS or ENSURE-FINALIZED is not evaluated in such case because the error happens when macroexpanding the form
<phoe> that's my first understanding
<VincentVega> That seems to be true, indeed.
<VincentVega> So, if the form errors out, the changes don't take effect?
<VincentVega> It also seems to be the case when quickloading a project. If the file has an error, it's as if no definition before the error ever got evaluated so I have to eval manually till the error. It's a bit annoying. tbh.
<phoe> they should not
<phoe> wait a second, doesn't slime tell you where the error is?
<phoe> you should be able to click on the line in *slime-compilation-errors* and jump to the file position
<phoe> then you can fix it and C-c C-k the whole file and/or retry loading the system
<VincentVega> Well, when it errors out, yeah it tells me there's an error.
<VincentVega> I see, OK.
<VincentVega> Well, it's still weird, because if no changes should take effect, then the second compilation of the progn should yield the same result, shouldn't it?
<phoe> yes
<phoe> I get consistent results though
<VincentVega> sbcl version?
<phoe> the no-class-found error I get is consistent if I answer N to loading the created/broken fasl file
<phoe> SBCL 2.0.6
<VincentVega> Oh. I don't reload the whole file though, I just compile the forms one by one.
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<phoe> ooooh
<phoe> yes, I can reproduce that
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<phoe> I wonder why that works
<VincentVega> Yeah, me too
<phoe> likely some compile-time side effects that are kicking
<phoe> maybe Bike will know
<phoe> he's not here at the moment thogh
<VincentVega> I can certainly wait
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<hendursaga> How might I use lquery to, say, append a string to the text of every <p> node? replace-with looks like it might work but I'm new to CL
<hendursaga> I've been looking through sample code on Github but I can't see anything that might fit.
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<hendursaga> Basically, how do I refer to the current set of elements being acted upon inside replace-with?
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<hendursaga> Perhaps an example of how to use lquery's each with replace?
<phoe> hendursaga: #shirakumo might help
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<macoy> Hi, I'm writing a Lisp-like language and was wondering if you guys could help me with a detail: In macro expansion time, does the interpreter basically traverse the entire AST recursively, and evaluate anything which happens to have a macro name by an open paren, regardless of any context? e.g. if I make up a DSL, but it wants to use a name which a macro also has, there's nothing to stop that macro from being expanded?
<macoy> (because macro expansion time has no idea we're supposed to be interpreting it as a DSL marker)
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<phoe> macoy: stop that macro from being expanded... do you mean the quote operator?
<phoe> "regardless of any context" is not really true, e.g. (case 42 (defun foo () ...) ...) will not macroexpand DEFUN
<phoe> this is because CASE itself is a macro and includes its own syntax
<phoe> if your DSL performs some sort of code walking, then it can introduce its own macro system when it compiles your DSL down to your Lisp
<macoy> phoe: Ah, I think I see what I was misunderstanding: I was imagining macro expansion would happen like function argument evaluation, where if you invoke a macro within another macro's arguments, the invoked macro (deepest) will be expanded first.
<macoy> With the case example, it makes sense that macros actually need to be generated immediately once encountered, then that generated code is evaluated for further macro expansion.
<macoy> So my DSL won't have problems with macro name collisions because I convert all the DSL symbols into something else (otherwise it wouldn't be a DSL, it'd just be Lisp)
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<phoe> macoy: no no no, macros are expanded from outside in
<phoe> if you have (FOO (BAR (BAZ ...))) then if FOO is a macro then it is expanded first
<phoe> and the macroexpansion may not even contain the form (BAR (BAZ ...)) or any form like it
<macoy> phoe: That makes much, much more sense than what I was thinking. Thanks a lot, you've saved me a lot of heartache had I tried the other approach first! :)
<phoe> <3
<phoe> macoy: figure out how other Lisp dialects do it before implementing your own
<phoe> like, you've wandered into #lisp, which is a place full of Common Lisp programmers
<aeth> see also: ##lisp (Lisp family) and #scheme (Scheme subfamily)
<aeth> but a lot of Schemes don't even have unhygienic macros anymore
<macoy> phoe: That's fair enough. I suppose I didn't do too deep of research (besides using Elisp and SBCL a bit, and generally knowing about tokenizers and parsers). I'm not trying to make a classical Lisp, it's more a Lisp-ish thing that I don't really know how to define. It uses generated C code to do all the actual work, and the only thing I define is macros and generators (generators do nothing but receive tokens and output C/C++ code;
<macoy> generators themselves can be written with other generators etc.)
<aeth> They're more problematic in Lisp-1s because name conflicts are easier. That and Scheme doesn't namespace symbols like CL does, so name conflicts are easier. (You can actually still get name conflicts in CL, with FLET, since functions/macros aren't usually gensymmed.)
<aeth> So Schemes focus on hygienic macro systems which are very different.
<phoe> macoy: so basically some sorta Lisplike macro system that spits out C code?
<macoy> aeth: Thanks for the other room recommendations!
<phoe> if yes, have you seen https://github.com/kiselgra/c-mera ?
<aeth> Lisp-1 means functions and variable share a namespace, if you're wondering. So (let ((list (list 1 2 3))) ...) can really easily mess with macros in the ... that call list. In CL, you generally only gensym the variable namespace, since the function/macro namespace has other protections (and the CL package, containing CL:LISP can be protected from redefine in a DEFUN or FLET)
<phoe> CL:LISP?
<phoe> oh, you meant CL:LIST
<aeth> CL:LIST heh
<bitmapper> hmm.
<phoe> hmmmmmm
<bitmapper> what to do about this code that expects in-package to make a package if it doesn't exist
<bitmapper> note: other than that, this code is rather nice unlike last time
<phoe> write your own IN-PACKAGE and use that instead
<bitmapper> im pleased to say that there is docstrings everywhere
<bitmapper> and no weird hacks
<aeth> My point is, Lisp-2's like CL don't really worry about non-variable gensyms in macros because (0) you have to modify the function, not variable, namespace (probably locallly with FLET/LABELS), (1) you're probably not USE'ing a package (and it might not be exported; so it's other-package::foo, not foo), (2) if you are using a package and it's CL it's protected from redefinition
<aeth> While Lisp-1 macro design in Scheme worries about this sort of thing more and focuses on hygiene.
<aeth> but how the language choices affect the preferred macros is more of a topic for ##lisp
<macoy> phoe: Yes, C-mera looks exactly like what I'm doing. Too bad I didn't discover it sooner! I want to continue working on my version, but C-mera looks interesting for sure
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<dra> macoy: Here's a small snippet from an interpreter I wrote some time ago in C++: http://pastie.org/p/3LGO6xC0aQ6wIIBQQ0lUAB
<macoy> dra: that's very clearly written, thanks for the snippet!
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<dra> My pleasure. :)
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